Theranos- medical lab testing

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much ado
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#51

Post by much ado » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:03 pm

Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:52 pm
I pity them even more....
In the presence of Ms. Holmes, it seems "sophisticated" investors become less sophisticated.

The investors duped by the Theranos fraud never asked for one important thing



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boots
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#52

Post by boots » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:40 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:49 am
Boots: i think the criticisms of Uber are not about its service but rather about its financing model. It has been pumping huge amounts of money into opening up new markets and keeping prices low so that other competitors wanting a return on their investment cannot compete.

In fact, quality of the product (decent drivers, direct routes, low fares, etc.) are part of the attempt to be numero uno.

The Uber model of transport will survive. The question is whether Uber itself will be part of that structure or will it go under as its debts accumulate?
Well now that might have some merit. But I didn't see that in the post I responded to.

Personally, I think it's a viable idea, even if Uber is overleveraged.



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JohnPCapitalist
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#53

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:55 pm

boots wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:40 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:49 am
Boots: i think the criticisms of Uber are not about its service but rather about its financing model. It has been pumping huge amounts of money into opening up new markets and keeping prices low so that other competitors wanting a return on their investment cannot compete.

In fact, quality of the product (decent drivers, direct routes, low fares, etc.) are part of the attempt to be numero uno.

The Uber model of transport will survive. The question is whether Uber itself will be part of that structure or will it go under as its debts accumulate?
Well now that might have some merit. But I didn't see that in the post I responded to.

Personally, I think it's a viable idea, even if Uber is overleveraged.
The general commentary about Uber that I read is that the model at current price points is unsustainable economically. The only reason that drivers think they make money is that they underestimate repair and depreciation costs on their cars. Or they overestimate local demand. I've heard stories of people leasing luxury cars to be professional Uber drivers only to have trouble meeting payments when demand isn't as big as they expected, and Uber shares none of the risk of under-utilization with the driver.

I don't know what percentage of revenue comes from "surge pricing," but it seems to me that was the major attraction to recruit drivers -- the idea that they would get more per mile in terms of high demand. The problem is that this only happens when there are insufficient drivers available to meet current demand, such as after a baseball game, during a rainstorm, etc. Over time, as more drivers get recruited, the percentage of time that surge pricing is in effect drops, and the surge rate drops. The problem is that it's a lot easier for Uber to add new drivers than it is for cabs to add new medallions in a given city. So driver's wages are easily depressed as surge premiums are ironed out. But Uber doesn't care as it gets more cars on the street and captures more business versus cabs.

The fact that Uber is subsidizing rides out of its venture funds says that they can't raise prices to get to a profitable level. Driver and car quality is not going to drive enough growth in the business to make it profitable. The old joke about "we lose money on every fare but make it up in volume" is certainly appropriate here.

Theranos is one type of fraud: the product never worked, not even in prototypes. But the type of fraud that Uber and Tesla are engaged in is still a problem, even though morally it's less severe. The product mostly works, but the business cannot ever be profitable enough to grow into the valuation assigned it by the investors who have been misled about the viability of the model.



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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#54

Post by TollandRCR » Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:58 pm

I am still a patron of licensed taxis. There is a testing system that Uber does not have, but it is flawed. I once had a NYC taxi driver ask me for directions to Grand Central Terminal. OTOH, I feel that the City is now behind me in a way thst Uber misses. How about insurance?


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boots
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#55

Post by boots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:42 pm

TollandRCR wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:58 pm
I am still a patron of licensed taxis. There is a testing system that Uber does not have, but it is flawed. I once had a NYC taxi driver ask me for directions to Grand Central Terminal. OTOH, I feel that the City is now behind me in a way thst Uber misses. How about insurance?
I think they carry an umbrella and require their drivers to have insurance.



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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#56

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm

Apps, websites and companies that promote peer to peer relationships do little more than to allow unregulated wild west deals. It's a further degradation of service industries that provide structure and insurance. And yet another way to avoid taxation.

I think they're all a bad idea, from Uber and Lyft, to Air BNB to the horrid Turo.



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Dan1100
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#57

Post by Dan1100 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:28 pm

JohnPCapitalist wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:55 pm
boots wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:40 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:49 am
Boots: i think the criticisms of Uber are not about its service but rather about its financing model. It has been pumping huge amounts of money into opening up new markets and keeping prices low so that other competitors wanting a return on their investment cannot compete.

In fact, quality of the product (decent drivers, direct routes, low fares, etc.) are part of the attempt to be numero uno.

The Uber model of transport will survive. The question is whether Uber itself will be part of that structure or will it go under as its debts accumulate?
Well now that might have some merit. But I didn't see that in the post I responded to.

Personally, I think it's a viable idea, even if Uber is overleveraged.
:snippity:
Theranos is one type of fraud: the product never worked, not even in prototypes. But the type of fraud that Uber and Tesla are engaged in is still a problem, even though morally it's less severe. The product mostly works, but the business cannot ever be profitable enough to grow into the valuation assigned it by the investors who have been misled about the viability of the model.
Tesla is different. It is fair to call it a gamble, maybe even a bad gamble, but it isn't a fraud.

It isn't about the cars, it is about the batteries. The cars are just a tool to get into the battery business, corner the production capacity and own the technology when batteries make their next leap.

Now if someone else makes the next innovation and the Chinese build the capacity, then Tesla is screwed and goes out of business. But, if Tesla can make that innovation and ends up owning both the production capacity and the technology, then there will be a Tesla battery in every home, every car, every office building, and probably a bunch of airplanes too.

Elon (and people who buy his stock) may have gone all in with having to draw to an inside straight, but that doesn't make it a fraud.


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boots
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#58

Post by boots » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:23 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm
Apps, websites and companies that promote peer to peer relationships do little more than to allow unregulated wild west deals. It's a further degradation of service industries that provide structure and insurance. And yet another way to avoid taxation.

I think they're all a bad idea, from Uber and Lyft, to Air BNB to the horrid Turo.
Far be it from me to quibble with :geezer: but have you ever tried Uber?

Also, if the service is better, and the people who use it as an income source find it better than getting a job as a cab driver, I am not sure what the big to-do is. Both are likely independent contractors; the cab drivers I speak with have to lease their cars by the day from the cab companies (not that there isn't a good wage-and-hour case lurking there for some enterprising class action firm). Both seem to have plenty of insurance for any loss.



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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#59

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 pm

boots wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:23 pm
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:53 pm
Apps, websites and companies that promote peer to peer relationships do little more than to allow unregulated wild west deals. It's a further degradation of service industries that provide structure and insurance. And yet another way to avoid taxation.

I think they're all a bad idea, from Uber and Lyft, to Air BNB to the horrid Turo.
Far be it from me to quibble with :geezer: but have you ever tried Uber?

Also, if the service is better, and the people who use it as an income source find it better than getting a job as a cab driver, I am not sure what the big to-do is. Both are likely independent contractors; the cab drivers I speak with have to lease their cars by the day from the cab companies (not that there isn't a good wage-and-hour case lurking there for some enterprising class action firm). Both seem to have plenty of insurance for any loss.
When I was looking at colleges with my daughter 4 years ago I took Uber extensively in Boston. (We also visited W4 and W2, the highlight of that part of our trip except for the visit to Hastings Hall, which brought back a lot of memories for me.) Taxicabs suck, too, but they are more regulated and bring in revenue for taxing authorities.

As for Tesla and "the batteries," there are almost 7000 slightly larger than AA batteries in each car. I do not call that progress. The Tesla interior looks like someone just gave up. And the build quality is so poor between 70-90% of the cars have to be repaired after they come off the production line. Luckily Space-X is run by rocket scientists. Tesla is run by amateurs who don't know how to make anything larger than a computer. And Musk doesn't seem to care.



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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#60

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:20 am

I think the Tesla line would be better served by amateurs rather than people who think they know what they are doing as appears to be the case. As a business model, unless you have a lot of your own money you want to throw away, or more specifically someone else's, it doesn't work very well, and doesn't do anything positive for your shareholders. I have to say I thought that battery technology was something different, but then too I've never much looked in to it.


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Re: Theranos- medical lab testing

#61

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:47 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:34 pm

When I was looking at colleges with my daughter 4 years ago I took Uber extensively in Boston. (We also visited W4 and W2, the highlight of that part of our trip except for the visit to Hastings Hall, which brought back a lot of memories for me.)
That was 4 years ago?? Good lord. :shock:

Come visit in Portland. Cheaper hotels, better food.


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