Hijack this thread

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RoadScholar
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26501

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:27 am

I don't think the modern struggle against excess weight is any ( or much) more complicated than this:

We evolved in a world of food scarcity. Plus, it took a lot of physical and mental effort to obtain it. Our bodies evolved to store fuel in good times against future scarcity.

Now food is plentiful and inexpensive, and not much effort is required to obtain it. But we still have the same basic metabolic systems we developed during a million years of scarcity.

This isn't some failure of character we've recently developed. It's the way we're built.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26502

Post by HeatherGray » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:05 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:27 am
I don't think the modern struggle against excess weight is any ( or much) more complicated than this:

We evolved in a world of food scarcity. Plus, it took a lot of physical and mental effort to obtain it. Our bodies evolved to store fuel in good times against future scarcity.

Now food is plentiful and inexpensive, and not much effort is required to obtain it. But we still have the same basic metabolic systems we developed during a million years of scarcity.

This isn't some failure of character we've recently developed. It's the way we're built.
Thank you. This is the way I have felt for years.

Years ago, a non-horse person expressed puzzlement about why horses will essentially eat themselves to death if they are allowed unrestricted access to grain. As I explained it, horses evolved to thrive on a nutrient spare diet like grass, with very occasional access to nutrient rich additions such as a few seed heads. Their physiologies never evolved an off-switch like predators, telling them that they've eaten too much. Similarly, they can't vomit like predators to get rid of bad food or too much food. Once, not long enough after I started caring for our own horses, one of them refused dinner because the hay delivery truck dropped too much excess hay that day. I called the vet and he told me to walk Rags every hour, and call him if he got worse. Rags was fine the next day, without any impaction resulting from too much food, but it was still scary. After the first few years, I made a place in the garage where I could keep the nutrient dense feed, so I wouldn't worry about a mistake on our part leading to a tragedy.



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Re: Hijack this thread

#26503

Post by Somerset » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:21 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 am
Hi GG. Good to see you. I was wondering where yo went.
Same here!

I saw that you were checking in periodically, so didn't worry too much, but still glad to see you :)



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Re: Hijack this thread

#26504

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:02 pm

We have what appears to be a juvenile crow that can't fly in our front yard. He was on the porch yesterday when my husband got home, about a foot from the door. Absolutely no reaction when my husband walked right up to him, other than turning his head to get a better look. This morning he was outside our bedroom door (10 feet from where he was yesterday) on the table, and again, you could walk right up to him with no reaction. Every time you get close to him though, 3 adult crows in the trees lose their shit and start circling and screaming. I moved him to the bench in the front yard so they could keep an eye on him, and now I have to listen to them screaming every time a car goes down the street or a squirrel moves in the tree. He's hopped off the bench and walked over in front of my window so I can watch him really well now.

He's just now started cawing himself, but other than that seems to be in no distress. The cats are even less interested in him than he was in us. The 108 heat index might have something to do with that, or the fact that our cats are incredibly lazy. I'm not sure what to do with him other than just keep an eye on him and hope everything works out for the best. Meanwhile, it's kind of cool watching how his "family" is reacting and looking up totally useless information about crows. They are pretty interesting creatures.



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Re: Hijack this thread

#26505

Post by Volkonski » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:18 pm

I had not known about this. It wasn't done at my public schools.

That Time American School Kids Were Given Dog Tags Because of Nukes

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/that-ti ... -508802138
In the early 1950s cities across the U.S. spent hundreds of thousands of dollars outfitting their children with military-style dog tags. Why were we giving kids something that’s usually reserved for people at risk of dying horrifically in the line of duty? Because in the era of duck and cover, kids were on the front lines.

The Soviet Union surprised the U.S. and became a nuclear-equipped superpower when it successfully tested its first atomic bomb on August 29, 1949. Suddenly the world had two ideologically opposed countries with the capability of unleashing unprecedented devastation upon each other. The campaign to mobilize average Americans by normalizing the discussion of collective death (even with children) was under way.

In February of 1952 the city of New York bought 2.5 million dog tags. By April of that year, just about every kid in the city from kindergarten to fourth grade had a tag with their name on it. Kids in many other cities like San Francisco, Seattle, Las Vegas and Philadelphia also got dog tags, allowing for easy identification should the unthinkable occur.

But educators weren’t considering just dog tags to identify the scores of dead and injured children that would result if the cold war suddenly turned hot. They also considered tattoos.
Image


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26506

Post by RTH10260 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:45 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:18 pm
I had not known about this. It wasn't done at my public schools.

That Time American School Kids Were Given Dog Tags Because of Nukes

https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/that-ti ... -508802138
► Show Spoiler
In February of 1952 the city of New York bought 2.5 million dog tags. By April of that year, just about every kid in the city from kindergarten to fourth grade had a tag with their name on it. Kids in many other cities like San Francisco, Seattle, Las Vegas and Philadelphia also got dog tags, allowing for easy identification should the unthinkable occur.

But educators weren’t considering just dog tags to identify the scores of dead and injured children that would result if the cold war suddenly turned hot. They also considered tattoos.
They obviously didn't get the message of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that there would be little left to identify and tattoes on burnt skin is not likely to survive. Those metal dog tags and chains would have themselves left nasty burn scars. Apart from heating up to crumpled metall sheets and possible melting to drops.



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Re: Hijack this thread

#26507

Post by tek » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:48 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:45 pm
They obviously didn't get the message of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that there would be little left to identify and tattoes on burnt skin is not likely to survive. Those metal dog tags and chains would have themselves left nasty burn scars. Apart from heating up to crumpled metall sheets and possible melting to drops.
Not the point.
The point was to plant the idea that this was survivable.
Even though everyone knew it wasn't.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26508

Post by Danraft » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:42 pm

Re: Why isn't the keto diet recommended more? I'm not a nutritionist and don't know for sure what the emphasis is in today's curriculum, but, I took my courses and I read current research. These are my contemplative thoughts, and, while I have seen some supported in the literature, it wasn't my focus and I have a full plate.

I find it potentially dangerous. As others have mentioned, evolution is a good basis to consider implications ( it is my goto method).
It is "hacking the system" that is meant to respond to stressful situations and maintain balance in the organism. The very old roots of these "stress response" still exist and many "extra" ones are built on the same motifs. The response in the archaic system was dramatic-- a change in proteins to a more heat-stable version, or to shut down, or to do any number of cataclysmic metabolic responses...

Which goes back to Dan-ism "A diseased/stressed system does not respond the same way as a healthy system." The ancient system has roots in nutrient sensing (TOR) and to keep the system in a state of "special" nutrient needs is foolhardy. Unfortunately, and this is my guess, the stress-response systems only "feels" evolutionary selective pressure at rare times and may be more prone to accumulated errors. Being in this Keto state is hard on the organism. It uses a less efficient pathway, that by its very nature, is going to produce more reactive oxygen that causes more mutations.

I mentioned by-products-- burning carbohydrates, as the name suggests, produces CO2 and H20 and energy. That is pure. There isn't any dark smoke coming from that chimney ( if I may use that analogy) whereas burning proteins and fat for energy is akin to burning carpet in the wood stove. Yes, it burns, but the smoke is black and sooty with various byproducts that can clog up the works. The body has systems that counter this, in the liver and kidneys especially, but it is hard work and requires even more calories and invokes even more problems.

Autophagy, in the keto circles, means fasting until the cells have a product shortage and start processing all the items marked for recycling and those items in the recycling centers ( lysosomes) and this can be healthy. It also causes the number of mitochondria per cell to be decreased-- benefits depend on the specific situation. But, the act of fasting also activates systems that are less ideal. And, if done too often, can be detrimental. (In some types of cancer, say the estrogen sensitive ones, it is important to note that even though a receptor has been moved from the cell membrane, that doesn't mean it stops signaling. If, for instance, the sorting mechanisms are not functioning (common in disease state), it may not make it to the lysosome where it would be broken down( and it just keeps signaling). This simple error is made by almost every cell modeling program I have examined.)

Mitochondria are exposed to more reactants and have high mutation rates because of this. There error correcting mechanisms are only so-so and. a primary means of checking (and eliminating bad copies), is for two mitochondria to fuse and the bad copy is eliminated. Great. But, if done too often, this is also a problem. How often is too often? Dunno. The lifespan of mitochondria is about 30 days.
To be honest, I have stayed away from Keto as a research topic because I have close friends who are strong advocates, and I just don't want the friction.

I will say, that there are better hacks. Inducing autophagy or mitochondrial fusion doesn't require fasting. And, much of the "benefits" of keto could be obtained by using a different stimulus which is the presence of specific types of digested fiber in the colon.

Then there is the "lack of nutrients".So many plant products offer incredible health benefits and they are not present.
"Sustainable"? Yes, if the individual is able to afford to eat higher priced food. And, from a global environment viewpoint, it would lead to massive food shortages.

So, in my view, without bothering to confirm hunches or debunk myself or seek true expertise, there are easier and less stressful ways to cause many of the metabolic benefits. And, a LOT of studies would need to be made into all the "off the cuff" concerns and more. It's like doctors saying supplements are a waste of money ( because there is a dearth of randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind studies) and then advocating the Mediterranean diet( for which, by definition, one can't have placebos) which has few solid studies supporting it that would not be accomplished by large amounts of just the olive oil. Olive oil is pretty damn good and, BTW activates the endocannabinoid system (as does canola).

And, it's possible that the largest "causative" element is a shift in the mix of gut bacteria caused by a change in diet. Just eliminating sugar is tremendous, for example. And, oils and fats have a far better glycemic index than simple sugars, which means spikes and valleys in glucose are less strong. This area is, and always has been, controversial. C'est la vie.
p0rtia wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:42 am
Danraft wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:01 am
I'm sorry, you didn't "quote" me, so I wasn't notified. Yes, the "ketogenic" diet has some great attention. :snippity: It is currently become a diet fad as a way to hack the system and induce weight loss (initally a lot of water weight) and inducing fat burning by not having ANY sugar or foods easily made into sugars--translation-- a LOT of meat. :snippity: It's not congruent with what I learned was healthy-- the hardest part for me is that metabolising proteins and fats produces some horrible byproducts and carbohydrates burn pure.
Sorry for the non-quote. Since I am eager for your thoughts, I will not make that mistake again!

So, regarding the above: 1) Not generally a lot of meat with the weight-management crowd: generally a lot of fat (from 60 to 75% of calories). 2) The big plus about keto is that it is sustainable, because, unlike calorie restriction, it controls hunger (doesn't decrease leptin and makes good use of satiety peptides). 3) What byproducts????
Danraft wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:01 am
But, the same doctor also noted another study wherein the nucleus of a cancer cell was transferred into a healthy cell; :snippity: The opposite was apparantly true by this study ( which has been inconsistently reproduced) The implication is that cancer would not be a "mutation disease," but rather an "expression disease".
What study is this?
Danraft wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:01 am
Translation of "metabolic", in this case, most often involves the mitochondria.... :snippity:
This is a very cool statement; one which, as a non-scientist, I would not be capable of producing. I've read about what happens to mitochondria in cancer, and how it is not in the mainstream of current cancer protocols, but this says it so simply.

Which brings us back to autophagy, yes? And keto, and intermittent/short-term fasting. On a related note, I'm puzzled as to why current cancer protocols pretty much ignore (not to say, reject) the idea of a metabolic component in cancer when they also point to the statistical connection between obesity and, say, breast cancer occurrence, and recommend a low-fat diet and weight loss to patients.

Which brings us to the difference between dietary fats and body fat, and thus back to keto.
Danraft wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:01 am
This is absolutely fascinating to me and I have strong opinions as to relevance not only with cancer but a spectrum of chronic and neurological ailments. On a feel-good side, all of my observations and predictions are not controversial in some circles. But, one must tread lightly as those, for whom research was frustrating because of a missing puzzle piece, have a kind of PTSD, maybe???
We all guard our own knowledge base, at least. Some more fiercely than others. I read papers and articles comparing the effectiveness of various weight-loss protocols, and I find them lacking in the human element, which annoys me. Reading explanations as to why people inevitably regain weight they have lost is frequently laughable ("Your body wants you to be fat" being one of the most annoying fad explanations). And the (unintentionally related) journal article that recommended like a 40 or 50 percent reduction in caloric intake as a potential benefit to extending life / fighting cancer. I mean, seriously? Anybody ever tried that? This is, for the majority of breathing humans, utterly unsustainable.

But I still love and respect the scientists and their research. As McCoy said to spoke, "I'd rather have your guess than anyone else's certainty." (paraphrase). You'll all get there, eventually.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26509

Post by Lani » Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:17 am

Danraft wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:42 pm
Re: Why isn't the keto diet recommended more? I'm not a nutritionist and don't know for sure what the emphasis is in today's curriculum, but, I took my courses and I read current research. These are my contemplative thoughts, and, while I have seen some supported in the literature, it wasn't my focus and I have a full plate.
:snippity: :snippity: :snippity:
Check out the topic Portia created and the article "What If It's All Been A Big Fat Lie". Great place to post research on weight management.
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=11947&hilit=Diet+fat#p1095395


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26510

Post by p0rtia » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:11 am

Lani wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:17 am
Danraft wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:42 pm
Re: Why isn't the keto diet recommended more? I'm not a nutritionist and don't know for sure what the emphasis is in today's curriculum, but, I took my courses and I read current research. These are my contemplative thoughts, and, while I have seen some supported in the literature, it wasn't my focus and I have a full plate.
:snippity: :snippity: :snippity:
Check out the topic Portia created and the article "What If It's All Been A Big Fat Lie". Great place to post research on weight management.
http://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... t#p1095395
Can this exchange be moved there?


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26511

Post by Foggy » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:18 pm

p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:11 am
Can this exchange be moved there?
Actually, since the last upgrade I'm having trouble moving posts on my tablet, and I'm not near my computer right now. I'll try to work on it.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26512

Post by Northland10 » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:26 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:02 pm
We have what appears to be a juvenile crow that can't fly in our front yard.
I read this three times and every time I read "juvenile cow". I was wondering WTF until the fourth time I saw it said crow.

I might be a little tired.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26513

Post by p0rtia » Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:51 pm

Foggy wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:18 pm
p0rtia wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:11 am
Can this exchange be moved there?
Actually, since the last upgrade I'm having trouble moving posts on my tablet, and I'm not near my computer right now. I'll try to work on it.
Thanks, Foggy! :bighug:


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26514

Post by Mr. Gneiss » Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:57 pm

So, asking for a friend. :-

What the heck does this mean, other than showing one's towel? :towel:

I will then be able to extrapolate to get the meaning of this. :geezertowel:

P.S. Is there a smiley for a box of rocks and/or hammers? It would save time, esp. replying in the "Spawn of Trump" thread. :mrgreen:



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Re: Hijack this thread

#26515

Post by RTH10260 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:21 am




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Re: Hijack this thread

#26516

Post by Volkonski » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:51 am

Mr. Gneiss wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:57 pm
So, asking for a friend. :-

What the heck does this mean, other than showing one's towel? :towel:

I will then be able to extrapolate to get the meaning of this. :geezertowel:

P.S. Is there a smiley for a box of rocks and/or hammers? It would save time, esp. replying in the "Spawn of Trump" thread. :mrgreen:
The towel is a reference to The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The Guide recommended a towel as an essential for hitchhikers. This led to people who were on top of things being said to always know where their towels were.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26517

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:03 pm

Reinforced by "Towelie" on South Park, whose tag line (when he wasn't getting stoned) was "Don't forget your towel!" 8-)


The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26518

Post by Mr. Gneiss » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:08 pm

Thanks Volkonski, obviously a book I haven't read.



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Re: Hijack this thread

#26519

Post by Jez » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:16 am

I can tell when programmers got ZERO input from actual, real, live technical writers when designing/updating a document management system.

I'm currently attempting (rather unsuccessfully) to search for control requirements on the RSA Archer Document Management system. 0/10 DO NOT RECOMMEND.

The interface is unwieldy. There is no way to forward to another page on search results or reports (i.e., report says 1 of 9... but no way to get to page 2). Search is clunky to begin with. There is no way someone that actually works with documentation on the daily was ever consulted in creating this mess. It's horrible.

Ok. Rant over. Back to attempting to make sense of this system.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26520

Post by MN-Skeptic » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:32 pm

Jez wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:16 am
I can tell when programmers got ZERO input from actual, real, live technical writers when designing/updating a document management system.
As a former corporate user of computer systems, I empathize.

I know my husband hated the travel reimbursement program used by his mega corporation. Like he said, if management had to use the system, they would have quickly found a better one. Unfortunately, their admin input all the data sparing them the hassles.

And my brother is a psychiatrist in southern Minnesota. He works with two computer systems - one through the Mayo Clinic, one through his local clinic. You might guess which one is a pleasure to work with. He seriously considered quitting the local clinic because of the stress of dealing with the inferior medical computer program.


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26521

Post by p0rtia » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:19 pm

Long-distance service restored on Day 25. I had to call them, of course. Turns out the problem was fixed last Friday but they didn't bother to call and tell me. The Company. Pfff

Who want me to call them? Seriously, I'm Jonesing to used my LD.

:towel:


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26522

Post by kate520 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:38 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:45 pm
I will not unsee that! And whoever heard of a pussy getting into a guy's pants? :cantlook:
:rotflmao:


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Re: Hijack this thread

#26523

Post by tek » Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:47 pm

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26524

Post by Northland10 » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:13 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:51 am
Mr. Gneiss wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:57 pm
So, asking for a friend. :-

What the heck does this mean, other than showing one's towel? :towel:

I will then be able to extrapolate to get the meaning of this. :geezertowel:

P.S. Is there a smiley for a box of rocks and/or hammers? It would save time, esp. replying in the "Spawn of Trump" thread. :mrgreen:
The towel is a reference to The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The Guide recommended a towel as an essential for hitchhikers. This led to people who were on top of things being said to always know where their towels were.
2 rules of life and hitchhiking. Don't Panic and always know where your towel is.

:towel:
Edit: Silly me, I forgot there's a third.

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26525

Post by MN-Skeptic » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:39 pm

Funny thought... I just realized that the phrase “dumb as a stump” needs to be updated. I propose “dumb as a Trump.”


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