Hijack this thread

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RoadScholar
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26426

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:48 pm

p0rtia wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:34 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:05 am
The analogy of people with overeating addiction and alcoholics is a good one.

Alcoholics say "I drink because I'm miserable and stressed." You ask why and the reason boils down to: because I drink to excess.

I've heard obese people say the same thing about overeating. "It's the only thing that makes be feel better." But they often are miserable and stressed largely because of their weight.

In both cases, pathological denial means they don't make the connection, and all the shaming and cajoling in the world won't make a dent in it.
Just NO. You are repeating (by saying someone is "in denial") the sort of old wives' tales that contribute to societies insane view of obesity. Not to mention generalizing, big time.
So, you're saying obese folks who are in denial about their over-eating don't exist?

You just keep believing that. I've seen it first hand, so... :nope:
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26427

Post by tek » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:53 pm

I would read as: over-simplified generalizations don't help anyone.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26428

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 pm

Yeesh. I was making the point that overcoming either alcoholism or pathological over-eating is not easy, is not a simple matter of "willpower," but a profound challenge that people without those issues can't understand. It's like the stupidity of the "Just Say No to Drugs" slogan. IT AIN"T THAT EASY.

I am not talking about folks who are overweight due to a genuine medical issue, dammit. I'm talking about people who eat an entire 16" deep-dish pizza, wash it down with a litre of soda, and follow up with a dozen donuts. Those individuals need help to overcome their denial of what their habits are doing to them before it kills them, and I sympathize; I have them in my own family.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26429

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:13 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:06 pm
Yeesh. I was making the point that overcoming either alcoholism or pathological over-eating is not easy, is not a simple matter of "willpower," but a profound challenge that people without those issues can't understand. It's like the stupidity of the "Just Say No to Drugs" slogan. IT AIN"T THAT EASY.

I am not talking about folks who are overweight due to a genuine medical issue, dammit. I'm talking about people who eat an entire 16" deep-dish pizza, wash it down with a litre of soda, and follow up with a dozen donuts. Those individuals need help to overcome their denial of what their habits are doing to them before it kills them, and I sympathize; I have them in my own family.
None of the obese people I know eat like that stereotype, however. I’m one of them. Don’t drink soda, do eat in moderation, split restaurant meals into two or three, drink mainly water, coffee, and tea, don’t eat doughnuts, let alone by the dozen. Do cycle and walk and occasional physical volunteer work. Am way morbidly obese.

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26430

Post by listeme » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:32 pm

Everyone has genuine medical conditions, many of which contribute to all sorts of things, including obesity. Obesity is beyond complex and not anything close to understood* yet. A LOT of stuff that seems behavioral ain't.

That's not denial.

*Including the consequences of obesity! To say there's disagreement in the field is an understatement.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26431

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:58 pm

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26432

Post by Maybenaut » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 pm

Somerset wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:45 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:17 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm
:bored: Waited around all day for a repairman...
:bored: Still waiting.

Monday's text said "Wednesday AM."

Dude sent me a text yesterday: "You are our 2nd appointment. Will be there closer to noon."

I sent him a text at around 4:00 pm today asking if he was planning on coming today, and if not, don't bother coming at all.

He texted back, "We are finishing our second job and will be at your job around 5-530."

Wait. I thought *I* was the second job.

:bored: :bored: :bored:
If they're this rushed and this blur, how good do you think their work will be?
Well, we will never know. When they hadn’t shown up by 6 o’clock I canceled.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26433

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:02 pm

OK. Weight gain has nothing whatsoever to do with consuming too many calories, for anyone in America.

I stand corrected.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26434

Post by ZekeB » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:06 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm
:bored: Waited around all day for a repairman...
When I was in Italy and the repairman said domani, he meant two or three days. If he said dopodomani he meant two or three months.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26435

Post by Maybenaut » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:00 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:06 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm
:bored: Waited around all day for a repairman...
When I was in Italy and the repairman said domani, he meant two or three days. If he said dopodomani he meant two or three months.
But if he said Lunedi, he actually meant Lunedi, no?
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26436

Post by Northland10 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:37 pm

Foggy wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:56 am
I can't even remember the last time I had chihuahua and Guinea pig for Thanksgiving. :think:
I appreciate that.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26437

Post by ZekeB » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:44 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:00 pm
ZekeB wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:06 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm
:bored: Waited around all day for a repairman...
When I was in Italy and the repairman said domani, he meant two or three days. If he said dopodomani he meant two or three months.
But if he said Lunedi, he actually meant Lunedi, no?
Yes, but he never said which one.
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Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26438

Post by Maybenaut » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:55 pm

ZekeB wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:44 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:00 pm
ZekeB wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:06 pm

When I was in Italy and the repairman said domani, he meant two or three days. If he said dopodomani he meant two or three months.
But if he said Lunedi, he actually meant Lunedi, no?
Yes, but he never said which one.
:rotflmao:
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26439

Post by Whatever4 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:41 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:02 pm
OK. Weight gain has nothing whatsoever to do with consuming too many calories, for anyone in America.

I stand corrected.
Please just stop. Weight gain clearly is more calories consumed than expended, but the over-generalization ends there. The reasons why more calories were ingested and/or fewer calories were expended are legion. There are those of us who blew the calculation 20 or more years ago and have kept the same excess pounds for a couple of decades. Some were heavy calorie burners who stopped due to injury, illness, mental illness, stress, whatever, and didn’t adjust eating. Others did fine for years until aging biology cut metabolism and weight gradually increased. VERY FEW are in the class of eating an entire pizza followed by an entire cake.

Once the weight has moved in, whatever it’s hideously difficult to get rid of it. Habits, lack of knowledge, biology, and math work against you. Please don’t beat people up for the condition of their bodies.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26440

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:46 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:02 pm
OK. Weight gain has nothing whatsoever to do with consuming too many calories, for anyone in America.

I stand corrected.
This world is full of miracles!

A more scientific approach:

How Does Denial Actually Work?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ually-work
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26441

Post by Whatever4 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm

Hurtzi wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:46 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:02 pm
OK. Weight gain has nothing whatsoever to do with consuming too many calories, for anyone in America.

I stand corrected.
This world is full of miracles!

A more scientific approach:

How Does Denial Actually Work?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ually-work
As your link says,

Let’s start by looking your root premise. It’s an over-simplification to believe that something is either true or false. Why? Because humans experience a range of powerful and complex emotions, such as desire, greed, pride, revenge, need for status, shame, humiliation, etc. These emotions exert a strong influence over a person's ability to interpret facts.
"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26442

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:06 pm

The best proof of the fact that obesity is nothing but overeating is the efficacy of bariatric surgery:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bariatric_surgery
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26443

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:04 am

My brother gets his in July.
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26444

Post by Foggy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am

I make no comment about anyone else and their struggles with weight.

But I have become very serious about diet and exercise, and so far this year I have lost 35 lbs. and greatly increased my strength. As you know, I had already quit smoking, alcohol, and marijuana. My only remaining vice is covfefe.

But it's hard work, I can tell you that much. :blink:
I put the 'fun' in dysfunctional.

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26445

Post by Hurtzi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:24 am

So I guess you know what you are talking about.

I do as well, having my experiences with binge eating for nearly 60 years now.

Maybe pOrtia will start a thread as proposed by herself.

Ps:
This post is an answer to Roadscholar and not Foggy
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26446

Post by listeme » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:29 am

Oh. So the guy who gives his experience which seems to confirm your simplistic view of the world knows what he's talking about. But the rest of the people giving their experience don't know what they're talking about.

Got it!
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Re: Hijack this thread

#26447

Post by Hurtzi » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:30 am

Foggy wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:22 am
I make no comment about anyone else and their struggles with weight.

But I have become very serious about diet and exercise, and so far this year I have lost 35 lbs. and greatly increased my strength. As you know, I had already quit smoking, alcohol, and marijuana. My only remaining vice is covfefe.

But it's hard work, I can tell you that much. :blink:
Alcohol and coffee in moderate quantities are both no problem for a healthy person.

But maybe you compensate with more sex, now that we can call you Slim.
The "water bear" is the first creature to live on the moon.

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26448

Post by Foggy » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:42 am

My mother, from whom I inherited the alcoholism/addiction gene, died when she was just 7 years older than I am today. I'd like to live more than another 7 years, tyvm. My motivation is nothing other than survival, and I know that others may be unable to do what I'm doing.

In March, my doctor took away one of my medications, because he said my blood pressure was a little too low. But I'm not gonna coach anyone else or shame people or write a best-selling diet book. I just want to live to be 100 years old, and I'm gonna be a skinny old man for the rest of my days on this planet.
I put the 'fun' in dysfunctional.

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26449

Post by Maybenaut » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:27 am

Everybody’s different.

I eat between 1200 and 1500 calories a day, paying close attention to the balance of macronutrients. I walk between 5 and 7 miles per day.

All to *maintain* my current percentage if body fat (which is higher than I would like).

Others could eat more, move less, and lose weight. Still others could eat less, move more, and gain.
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Hijack this thread

#26450

Post by Danraft » Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:52 pm

Re Diet, BMI, and metabolic disease.
Yes, it sure is a complicated topic. I've been doing a review of scientific literature on chronic illnesses, and there are sufficient connections to this topic that I can appreciate the various narratives here.

Much of this area is under constant revision , so I'll share a few recent insights that the medical community is digesting (he-he).

The GI tract can taste, just like the tongue. It makes sense, as the method of digestion depends on what is there and the amount of sugar that will shortly be entering the bloodstream requires corrective action (if present). In fact, the sweet taste of non-caloric sweeteners, in contrast to its nutrient value, is something that has to be relearned by the GI system.

The microbiota matter in many ways, and taking a multi strain 30-50million/day dose for some amount of time after antibiotics is wise. There are many types of gut bacteria and the mix can make a tremendous difference in calorie adsorption and how it is managed. The bacteria have their rhythm, and regular meal times are a good idea. You're feeding billion of guests, be kind. Fiber is checked for post-adsorption and has its own receptors that are involved with crosstalk in mitochondrial settings.

Circadian clock matters. Besides the bacteria's rhythm, circadian clock dysfunction is a hallmark of many illnesses and theories abound as to why. This is the research I am doing, but regardless of why, one method of "tuning" the circadian clock is meals. The current studies with a daily 12 hour fast, from last food to first (with the last food 3 hours before sleep), are interesting.

If you have a circadian polymorphism called Per3, where the amplitudes of the signal is about 1/3 as strong, and parts of the circadian system are bypassed (these people tend to be night owls as they don't get the sleepiness signal), meals are the most effective way to maintain the clock.

Type of calories matter, and its a controversial topic. One thing that all agree with is straight sugar is to be avoided- some as far as eliminating sweet fruits.

I saw upthread a fibromyalgia reference, and this is true for most of the chronic diseases, metabolic dysfunction is at least a hallmark, and some would argue "causative" in FM, Alzheimer's (the most effective recent trial was intranasal insulin), mood disorders, diabetes, Crohns, etc. But, it seems to be induced as part of a stress response cascade which causes radical changes in system regulation.

Daily exercise sends signals which, at the very least, are countering the stress messaging. And, some of those various messages originate from the adipose tissue ( as P0rtia alluded to).

Gastric bypass has larger effects than just the calorie reduction and is likely affecting the messaging system as well. And, don't underestimate how large an impact that has, since our microbiota are responsible for the majority of our serotonin. Our GI system has a tremendous number of neurons (some call it the gut-brain), and the vagus nerve enters at the point that controls addiction, pain management through afferent modulation, etc.. It's numorouss neural receptor effects are still not understood. And, yes, part of that is the endocannabinoid system.

Aside from that jumble, aging sucks.

Living to be a 100 year old rooster means keeping the damages down.Some supplements get unpredictable results in clinical trials, but I've found Quercetin, Pterostilbene, CoQ10,, and melatonin studies to be consistently impressive. If reading medical research papers is intimidating, there are a number of Chrome extensions that help make it more accessible.
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