Fire!

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Whatever4
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Re: Fire!

#1726

Post by Whatever4 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:13 am

Penzey Spice:
If you haven’t been to the Notre Dame Cathedral it maybe hard to understand the sadness of today’s fire. Just to be there, to stand, to look, to listen, was to be connected to something larger than our individual selves. Regardless of where we as individuals sense that our values come from, Notre Dame’s a place where, just to be there is to be powerfully reminded that there are universal human values in which we all share.

And for those who believe human decency trumps the rule of unjust laws, Notre Dame is a symbol like no other in support of the unending need for places of sanctuary in times when the politics of the day turn to inhumanity. For so many across the earth tonight, this moment is a time for rightful sadness. None of what Notre Dame stands for was truly lost today, but its 800-year history of standing for all it symbolizes will be greatly missed.

Cooks create better futures for those around them, and a big part of this lives in shaping what comes next. How does tragedy turn into something positive? I remember reading that the Dalai Lama, after long thought, came to see his exile from Tibet by the Chinese not as a crime but as a sign the universe felt Tibetan Buddhism should no longer be hidden away from the rest of the world. Today’s fire will take time to digest, but maybe over time we can take it as a reason to believe that the idea for sanctuary for humanity in times of unjust laws is too important an idea to exist merely on a tiny island inside of Paris.

As a Spice business I see what we do so intertwined with history that any loss of history feels like our loss as well. Still, there are times when history needs to be renewed and rebuilt with all the greater understanding we’ve come to possess over time. For the original builders of Notre Dame eight hundred years ago, there was a great understanding of their own route to connecting to the universal humanity we share, but their understanding of the paths of others, in different places around the world, to what we all share, and the goodness inside those others, was limited.

My hope is that in the coming months all of us, from all countries, can find a way to give of our own human kindness to help make right the events of today. Maybe tonight, what looks like tragedy can in time become a piece of history that contains even greater value. Right now our thoughts are with the people of Paris, the people of France, and with all those the history of Notre Dame has touched around the world. We are with you.

Bill

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Re: Fire!

#1727

Post by Whatever4 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:22 am

Speaking on French radio early Tuesday, Culture Minister Franck Riester said many priceless works of art in the cathedral were saved and that Notre Dame’s organ had survived. He also confirmed the preliminary reports from firefighters that they had been able to save the church’s two most hallowed relics: a tunic worn by Saint Louis, a 13th-century French king, and the crown of thorns that Jesus is said to have worn.

These objects are now in safekeeping at Paris City Hall, Riester said.

“It was necessary to bring them out through the smoke,” Paris Fire Commander Jean-Claude Gallet told BFMTV, saying that firefighters had rushed into the chamber of the cathedral at the height of the fire to make the rescue.

:snippity:

“Notre Dame of Paris is our history,” Macron continued, emphasizing the structure’s unique place in the national imagination. “The epicenter of our lives. It’s the many books, the paintings, those that belong to all French men and French women, even those who’ve never come.”

:snippity:

The church is both a literal and figurative center of the city: It anchors the Ile de la Cite, the island in the Seine where the first settlements emerged that eventually became the city of Paris. The common distinctions of “Left Bank” and “Right Bank” are in reference to this island.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... ced576fe8e
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Re: Fire!

#1728

Post by Whatever4 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:43 am

Notre Dame: Fate of gothic masterpiece's priceless treasures
Some world famous relics are associated with the towering jewel of Western architecture which has survived wars and revolutions.

Firefighters risked their lives to save Notre Dame's priceless historical artefacts of religious and cultural significance from the raging inferno that engulfed the 12th century cathedral.

Paris mayor Anne Hidalgo confirmed most artworks and several of the most sacred relics had been saved from the fire which ravaged much of the building's roof and caused its iconic spire to collapse.

Police officers and other city officials raced to recover what treasures they could from the 850-year-old smouldering ruin and formed what she described as a "tremendous human chain" to save the relics.

Culture minister Franck Riester posted photos on social media of people loading art onto trucks and said other treasures were being held under lock and key at city hall.

https://news.sky.com/story/notre-dame-f ... s-11695154
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Re: Fire!

#1729

Post by Whatever4 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:31 am

September 26, 1902

. . . This last week, every day from ten o'clock until five in the afternoon, I have been in the Bibliotheque Nationale and have read many books and seen many reproductions of cathedrals of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries. My dear, that was a great, great art. The more one concerns oneself with its creations, the more deeply one feels the value and exquisiteness of the work: for these cathedrals, these mountains and mountain ranges of the Middle Ages, would never have been finished if they had had to grow out of inspirations. One day had to come like another and set to work, and if each one wasn't an inspiration, still each was a road to it. Everything has already been said about these great churches; Victor Hugo has written a few wonderful pages about Notre-Dame de Paris, and yet these cathedrals still have their effect, strangely alive, unbetrayed, mysterious an effect greater than words can tell. ... I think they are in the midst of this great city like a forest or like the sea; a bit of Nature in this city in which the gardens are Art. They are solitude and stillness, refuge and quiet in the change and jumble of these streets. They are the future as they are the past; everything else runs, flows, races and falls . . . they tower and wait. Notre Dame grows with every day; the more often one returns to it, the greater one finds it. At sunset almost every day I go past there at the hour when the Seine is like gray silk into which the lights are falling like polished gems.

Letter to Clara
Rainer Maria Rilke
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Re: Fire!

#1730

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:23 am

Dang - he even speaks foreign :o

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Re: Fire!

#1731

Post by Suranis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:39 am

The sad thing is, even though they are saying the stone of the building will remain what actually stands will have to be gutted. Smoke damage will be everywhere, and they will have to clean out everything to get rid of the smell. If they rebuild it, it just wont be the same. They will have to make compromises, the low build contractors will cut corners, the new wood just won't have the smell of the centuries old wood.

I've never been there, but its gone. Sad to think about.

I am reminded thogh of a Story. My first girlfriend was German, and when I was over we visited Cologne Cathedral. This massive pile of rock in the Middle of Cologne. And when I was looking at it I was reminded of the fact you ca se the tracts of WW2 Allied bombers through the city, every street has new constuction and old buildings.

So I said out loud "how did they MISS this thing?"

She grinned at me and said "They didn't. They had guys on the roof kicking off the bombs before they went off!"
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Re: Fire!

#1732

Post by much ado » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:01 pm

Suranis wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:39 am
:snippity:

So I said out loud "how did they MISS this thing?"

She grinned at me and said "They didn't. They had guys on the roof kicking off the bombs before they went off!"
That makes a good story, but I'm sure the bombs were designed to go off on impact.

Here's an article on the bombing of Cologne and the cathedral...

The Cologne Cathedral stands tall amidst the ruins of the city after Allied bombings, 1944

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Re: Fire!

#1733

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:21 pm

According to Le Figaro (a newspaper in France, as all Fogbow cosmopolitans know ;) ), almost €700M (€1 ≈ $1 so about $700M) has already been donated by companies and wealthy people to the rebuilding fund: Notre-Dame: près de 700 millions d'euros déjà donnés par les entreprises et les grandes fortunes

Cosmetics and luxury brands appear to be in a competition for holiness: L'Oréal contributed €200M, LVMH (Louis Vuitton) another €200M, either directly from the companies or from the owners' holding companies. Total (an oil company) will contribute €100M, and other companies (JC Decaux, advertizing, Bouyges Telecom, etc., well known in France but less so outside Europe) are promising €10M, €20M, etc.

That's a lot of money … not enough to complete the rebuilding of course, but it's a heck of a start. I'm impressed.

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Re: Fire!

#1734

Post by Hurtzi » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:41 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:21 pm
According to Le Figaro (a newspaper in France, as all Fogbow cosmopolitans know ;) ), almost €700M (€1 ≈ $1 so about $700M) has already been donated by companies and wealthy people to the rebuilding fund: Notre-Dame: près de 700 millions d'euros déjà donnés par les entreprises et les grandes fortunes

Cosmetics and luxury brands appear to be in a competition for holiness: L'Oréal contributed €200M, LVMH (Louis Vuitton) another €200M, either directly from the companies or from the owners' holding companies. Total (an oil company) will contribute €100M, and other companies (JC Decaux, advertizing, Bouyges Telecom, etc., well known in France but less so outside Europe) are promising €10M, €20M, etc.

That's a lot of money … not enough to complete the rebuilding of course, but it's a heck of a start. I'm impressed.
Notre Dame is owned not by the (Catholic) church but France. It will surely be rebuilt just like it was, but that will take years or tens of years. There are qualified workers - esp. in Poland - and I don't fear that they'll "cut edges ".
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Re: Fire!

#1735

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:43 pm

The Grauniad has a good photo gallery with a lot of internal pictures. The damage is very bad, but could have been much, much worse. It looks like most of the internal arches and vaults held well, in small part due to the absence of aerial waterbombing but mostly because it turns out that those architects and artisans knew what they were doing back in the day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/galle ... n-pictures
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Re: Fire!

#1736

Post by Hurtzi » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:53 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:43 pm
The Grauniad has a good photo gallery with a lot of internal pictures. The damage is very bad, but could have been much, much worse. It looks like most of the internal arches and vaults held well, in small part due to the absence of aerial waterbombing but mostly because it turns out that those architects and artisans knew what they were doing back in the day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/galle ... n-pictures
Actually they did not know very well what they were doing. Structural analysis was not yet invented. So they tried mostly to be on the safe side and built too strong ( not always, some of the buildings crumbled during the building phase already).
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Re: Fire!

#1737

Post by much ado » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:02 pm

Hurtzi wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:53 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:43 pm
The Grauniad has a good photo gallery with a lot of internal pictures. The damage is very bad, but could have been much, much worse. It looks like most of the internal arches and vaults held well, in small part due to the absence of aerial waterbombing but mostly because it turns out that those architects and artisans knew what they were doing back in the day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/galle ... n-pictures
Actually they did not know very well what they were doing. Structural analysis was not yet invented. So they tried mostly to be on the safe side and built too strong ( not always, some of the buildings crumbled during the building phase already).
The Beauvais Cathedral was an example...

Falling Buttresses: Beauvais Cathedral and the Limits of Gothic Architecture
Although Beauvais Cathedral was intended to be taller than other cathedrals, the original planners also designed the flying buttresses to be thinner. This was both to allow them to soar higher (since they weighed less!) and to allow maximum light into the stained glass windows of the building. Unfortunately the design did not work out. The cathedral collapsed in 1284 (well, actually only part of the choir vault collapsed, along with multiple flying buttresses). Contemporary structural engineers believe that the failure was the result of resonant vibrations—an unhappy mixture of spindly buttresses which were just the wrong length to cope with the region’s high winds. The cathedral was built and rebuilt off and on throughout the following centuries, with mixed results. In 1573 the structure suffered another major setback when the 153 meter tall central tower collapsed.

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Re: Fire!

#1738

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:11 pm

Luxury titans lead $678 million effort to restore Notre Dame

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/busine ... =sftwitter
Kicking off a wave of donations in response to a call from President Emmanuel Macron for a fund-raising campaign, Francois-Henri Pinault, the chairman and chief executive officer of Gucci owner Kering SA, and his father, Francois Pinault, said Tuesday they would donate 100 million euros from their Artemis investment company.

Their archrival, the Arnault family, responded minutes later with a pledge of 200 million euros and the architectural and design resources of their LVMH fashion conglomerate. Cosmetics company L’Oreal SA and its principal shareholder, the Bettencourt Meyers family, will give 100 million euros, while the family’s charitable foundation will chip in another 100 million euros, the company said.
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Re: Fire!

#1739

Post by Suranis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:17 pm

much ado wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:01 pm
That makes a good story, but I'm sure the bombs were designed to go off on impact.
Ya, I added the "before they went off" part as I wanted the story to be clearer. Wiki says the Cathedral suffered 14 hits during the war, and they DID have people in an on the Cathedral ready to put out fires. So a bit of truth in there regardless.

Thanks for the article. I'll have a read later.

And apperently these things can be rebuilt. Frauenkirche in Dresden, 1965 and 2010:

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Re: Fire!

#1740

Post by AndyinPA » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:35 pm

I think Notre Dame can be rebuilt, but there will probably be one or two generations who will not see it. Eventually, this fire will become a part of its history.

We have a restaurant/tavern/BnB near here that has been in continual operation since 1794. In 2015, it burned to the ground, leaving only the thick stone walls standing. It took nearly three years, but the owner rebuilt to the way it was. Very little was saved as it went up so quickly. It was very lucky that she and her son got out alive. It happened at night so there was no one else there. She refurnished it using period pieces from antique shops all around the East Coast. She found people who could perfectly reproduce, using original methods, rugs, tapestries, etc. If there are people here in this country who can do such precise reconstruction, there are people in the Europe who can do it. It's not the same scale, of course, but it can be done.

It's about 20 miles away from us, but we went there frequently for dinner. We haven't been back since they reopened about a year ago, but I've seen pictures and it looks much as it did. The 2015 fire is now part of its history.

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Re: Fire!

#1741

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:45 pm

Morning Joe

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@Morning_Joe
7h7 hours ago
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Breaking: Paris prosecutor says structure of Notre Dame not stable, per @RichardEngel
More of the ceiling survived than the overhead photo seemed to show last night but the structure is not stable. Let us hope that they don't get high winds before the structure can be reinforced.

Big question will be do they rebuild it using 12th century technology or 21st century technology.
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Re: Fire!

#1742

Post by MN-Skeptic » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:19 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:45 pm

Big question will be do they rebuild it using 12th century technology or 21st century technology.
I would hope that they evaluate where current technology makes more sense, but use facades, etc. to mask those updates, making it appear to be original as much as possible.
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Re: Fire!

#1743

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm

$700 million could do a lot of good for a lot of people. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. That's all I'll say.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: Fire!

#1744

Post by tek » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:40 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
$700 million could do a lot of good for a lot of people. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. That's all I'll say.
A few tens of miles of border wall.. :blink:
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Re: Fire!

#1745

Post by MN-Skeptic » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:44 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
$700 million could do a lot of good for a lot of people. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. That's all I'll say.
That $700 million is not going to be buried in a hole in the ground. Instead it is going to be a major boost to the economy because it will be paying the salaries of the workers rebuilding the structure. It will be used to purchase the products going into the rebuilding - wood, tapestries, etc. The $700 million goes to PEOPLE ultimately. Hopefully it goes to people who then, in turn, spend it in their communities.

As long as the money goes into the community, this is money well spent. It is not like stock buy-backs, for example, where money goes to rich folks who just use it to buy more index funds.
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Re: Fire!

#1746

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:54 pm

Chilidog wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:04 pm
With all the ugliness in the world, I mourn the loss of anything beautiful.

That’s all I’m goi to say on this
With you there. I felt the same about the huge 1000-year-old stone Buddha sculptures the Taliban dynamited... I'm not Buddhist, those statues mean nothing to me personally... but what a goddamn shame to destroy such a loving and grand product of the hand of man.
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Re: Fire!

#1747

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:05 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
$700 million could do a lot of good for a lot of people. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. That's all I'll say.
I tend to think of this sort of thing as the “But Polly Klaas is Dead!” argument. Polly Klaas was a 12 year old girl kidnapped from her mother’s home in Petaluma, California in 1993. I was living in Petaluma at the time, so it was a big local story. It was a horrible tragedy for her family and the community. Her killer, Richard Allen Davis, was convicted of her murder and sentenced to death (but will likely not face execution given the governor’s moratorium.)

Any time the subject of spending public money arose, Polly Klaas’ father (and others — it wasn’t just him) took to the local airwaves to decry the use of the money for whatever the purpose was when the money and effort could be better spent on law enforcement and incarceration.

One can always argue that sums of money, large and small, can be better spent elsewhere. In the end, though, it’s their money and they can do what they want with it.
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Re: Fire!

#1748

Post by Mr. Gneiss » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:34 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:45 pm
Big question will be do they rebuild it using 12th century technology or 21st century technology.
My thoughts are that it will be an artistic blending of the two. 12th century wherever they can and modern materials employed where needed. For example, there are not 13,000 300 to 400 year old oak trees to build the new roof, but modern laminated wood beams will hopefully create a similar effect (and likely be stronger).

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Re: Fire!

#1749

Post by Suranis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:05 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:29 pm
$700 million could do a lot of good for a lot of people. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, etc. That's all I'll say.
The money will presumably be going to the French Ministry of Culture, as they are the ones that actually own the Building. The Catholic Church owns no buildings in France.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notre-Dam ... #Ownership
Ownership
Under a 1905 law, Notre-Dame de Paris is one of 70 churches in Paris built before that year which are owned by the French state. While the building itself is owned by the state, the Catholic Church is the designated beneficiary, having the exclusive right to use it for religious purposes in perpetuity. The archdiocese is responsible for paying the employees, for security, heating and cleaning, and for ensuring that the cathedral is open free to visitors. The archdiocese does not receive subsidies from the French state.
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Re: Fire!

#1750

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:28 pm

Notre Dame Cathedral Fire Conspiracy Theories Flourish After Investigators Say There’s No Proof of Terrorism

https://www.thedailybeast.com/notre-dam ... -terrorism
Within minutes of the fire breaking out yesterday, pro-Trump commentators rushed to portray it as a symbol of Western decline. “The West has fallen,” declared Mike Cernovich.

Others were eager to suggest, without evidence, that Muslims were behind the fire. Gateway Pundit dredged up a three-year-old terrorist plot to blow up Notre Dame as proof that this fire was caused by terrorists. Fox News anchors had to repeatedly shut down guests who tried to push the idea that the fire was caused by terrorists. QAnon believers produced a wide range of theories, blaming the fire on everyone Michelle Obama to the deep-state to Pope Francis.

On Tuesday, French fire investigators said there was no evidence that the fire was caused by arsonists or terrorists. Rather than tamping down the conspiracy theories, though, the French statement has only fueled the idea on the right that terrorists were behind the fire. Instead, they’re treating the announcement as proof that the investigators can’t be trusted.
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