Fire!

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realist
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Re: Fire!

#1676

Post by realist » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:28 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm
fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:41 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:31 pm


:yeah:

I’m an atheist who *loves* architecture. All architecture. Even that built by people who held beliefs I don’t share, and who did awful things in the name of those beliefs, or under the protection of those institutions. Note Dame was very high on my list of places I wanted to see before I die. Clearly not going to happen now. So, for me at least, the Loss of Notre Dame is a cause for sadness, not glee.
I'm not gleeful. I'm mostly revolted to see so many people (not here specifically, just generally) expressing more concern for the well-being of a goddamned building than the lives of children victimized by the Church.

It's a building. Buildings can be replaced and repaired, and will inevitably be destroyed. There is no human life on Earth that is worth one building on Earth, nor one victim's childhood. That's the moral context that I'm not seeing anywhere. It's all just endless hand-wringing about how sad it is that a building is on fire.

Besides, no one wrings their hands about the many medieval cathedrals that were destroyed by allied bombing campaigns in World War 2. I can't imagine why not...
So the fact that I’m sad about the loss of a building necessarily means that I (and I must say, I’m having a hard time separating myself from the people “just generally” that you’re talking about) don’t care about Catholic priests molesting children, and that the church covered it up, didn’t do anything about it, or whatever? That’s such bullshit.

I don’t have to like the Catholic Church, or support everything (or anything) it stands for, or agree with its handling of abuse issues, to believe that the loss of the structure is an unfortunate incident in world history, given its importance to the fields of architecture and construction.

The reason you’re not seeing the “moral context” of the value of the building versus the value of a person’s childhood is because it’s a false equivalency. Nobody is saying that the Cathedral of Notre Dame (or any structure) is “more important” than any child. I’m certainly not saying that, and to the extent that your comments suggested that I am, I find it a little offensive.

I am under no false illusions about the Catholic Church, or the horrors that it has inflicted on its members throughout the ages. I personally have been victimized by the church plenty. But I’m more than capable of feeling outrage about that on the one hand, and sadness at the loss of what was an architectural marvel at the time and is perhaps the best example of Gothic architecture still in existence on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
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Re: Fire!

#1677

Post by SLQ » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm
So the fact that I’m sad about the loss of a building necessarily means that I (and I must say, I’m having a hard time separating myself from the people “just generally” that you’re talking about) don’t care about Catholic priests molesting children, and that the church covered it up, didn’t do anything about it, or whatever? That’s such bullshit.

I don’t have to like the Catholic Church, or support everything (or anything) it stands for, or agree with its handling of abuse issues, to believe that the loss of the structure is an unfortunate incident in world history, given its importance to the fields of architecture and construction.

The reason you’re not seeing the “moral context” of the value of the building versus the value of a person’s childhood is because it’s a false equivalency. Nobody is saying that the Cathedral of Notre Dame (or any structure) is “more important” than any child. I’m certainly not saying that, and to the extent that your comments suggested that I am, I find it a little offensive.

I am under no false illusions about the Catholic Church, or the horrors that it has inflicted on its members throughout the ages. I personally have been victimized by the church plenty. But I’m more than capable of feeling outrage about that on the one hand, and sadness at the loss of what was an architectural marvel at the time and is perhaps the best example of Gothic architecture still in existence on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
:yeah: this is in a thread about fire, not the Catholic Church or child abuse. Hers an analogy for the false equivalency: humankind has done some awful things. Therefore I cannot be sad when an individual person dies.
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Re: Fire!

#1678

Post by realist » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Whatever4 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:24 pm
fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:41 pm

Besides, no one wrings their hands about the many medieval cathedrals that were destroyed by allied bombing campaigns in World War 2. I can't imagine why not...
Yes they do. Some of the British ones have become incorporated into memorials or parks. The bombed Coventry Cathredral is a moving memorial to the destruction of war.

It’s possible to hold more than one view of a complex issue. Yes, the child (and adult) molestations are heinous. So was the Inquisition. So were the other scandals that the Roman Catholic and other churches were involved in. So was the burning of heretics, the Crusades, the Dissolution of the Monasteries under Henry VIII, and all the other atrocities in the name of any religion.

But religion and spirituality have been major drivers of art and expression as long as people have been sentient. The stained glass in ND was amazing, both original Gothic and later contemporary version. Standing in the cathedral, I felt the power of a thousand years of individuals sharing beliefs that were at the center of their every day lives.

I’m not Roman Catholic. I’m barely religious. But Notre Dame Cathedral is a huge loss to Paris and the World.
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Re: Fire!

#1679

Post by AndyinPA » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:57 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... -cathedral
Firefighters battled to contain the fire, which began at 5.50pm local time (16.50 GMT), with police saying it began accidentally and may be linked to building work at the cathedral.

The 850-year-old gothic masterpiece had been undergoing restoration work to help it better withstand the tests of time.

“Everything is burning,” André Finot, a spokesman for the cathedral, told French media. “Nothing will remain from the frame.”
That's what they are also reporting on MSNBC.

I think it's a typo and he said flame.

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Re: Fire!

#1680

Post by Chilidog » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:04 pm

With all the ugliness in the world, I mourn the loss of anything beautiful.

That’s all I’m goi to say on this

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Re: Fire!

#1681

Post by fierceredpanda » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:05 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:15 pm
So the fact that I’m sad about the loss of a building necessarily means that I (and I must say, I’m having a hard time separating myself from the people “just generally” that you’re talking about) don’t care about Catholic priests molesting children, and that the church covered it up, didn’t do anything about it, or whatever? That’s such bullshit.

I don’t have to like the Catholic Church, or support everything (or anything) it stands for, or agree with its handling of abuse issues, to believe that the loss of the structure is an unfortunate incident in world history, given its importance to the fields of architecture and construction.

The reason you’re not seeing the “moral context” of the value of the building versus the value of a person’s childhood is because it’s a false equivalency. Nobody is saying that the Cathedral of Notre Dame (or any structure) is “more important” than any child. I’m certainly not saying that, and to the extent that your comments suggested that I am, I find it a little offensive.

I am under no false illusions about the Catholic Church, or the horrors that it has inflicted on its members throughout the ages. I personally have been victimized by the church plenty. But I’m more than capable of feeling outrage about that on the one hand, and sadness at the loss of what was an architectural marvel at the time and is perhaps the best example of Gothic architecture still in existence on the other. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
Maybe the highlighted phrase is what I'm objecting to, fundamentally. I'll explain:

Literally all the analysis I am seeing on the teevee (not to mention my Facebook feed, which is the "generally" I was referring to) is talking about the architectural and cultural importance of the Cathedral, which I don't question for one second.

Where I have a problem with that is this: When we (and I just mean human beings here) talk about loss, we talk about loss that we ourselves have experienced and can comprehend. Yes, it is a cultural loss that Notre Dame has apparently been destroyed, just as it was a loss when Dresden Cathedral was bombed or the remnants of Library of Alexandria razed on the order of the Coptic Pope Theophilus. (Actually, there's a whole historical irony aspect of this that we haven't even touched one - namely the Catholic Church's previous inclination towards burning literally every other faith's temples to the ground whenever they had the chance, not to mention burning actual human beings. But I digress.)

What's harder to fathom is the individual loss for victims of child sex abuse. And the number of victims has gotten so enormous that it seems like almost no one talks about it anymore, perhaps because the suffering is beyond our comprehension. As a comparison, someone on my Facebook feed says today is "so upsetting that words cannot describe," which roughly approximates my reaction to seeing the movie "Spotlight."

At the end of the day, I really don't give a damn if Notre Dame was the finest surviving example of Gothic architecture. I care more that the Church has hidden itself behind it's gorgeous churches to deflect criticism of the institution as a whole.

I certainly did not wish to offend you personally, Maybenaut, but I am quite earnest about this. To me, the Catholic Church and its undisputed pattern of committing the most monstrous crimes against children is inseparable from its cathedrals. I absolutely do not wish for cathedrals to burn, but I refuse to shed any tears over it either. Those I save for the Church's victims.

And I will get up with anyone who wants to defend "millions of fine Catholics." I'm sorry, but if you are financially supporting the Catholic Church today, you have access to all the information you need to understand that this is an organization that has directly abused countless children and then covered it up for decades. The term for that is "aiding and abetting," not in the criminal sense, but in the moral sense. It's not my job to assuage the consciences of "good Catholics" who do not part ways with the Church any more than it is my job to reassure a Klansman that he is just "defending his cultural heritage." Again, I care about the actual victims of the Church, not the hurt feelings of members who don't want to face the truth.

Basic humanity is like a muscle. You have to exercise it, or it stops working properly.
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Re: Fire!

#1682

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:09 pm

Fire seems to be inside the north bell tower. Firefighters are hosing water into it thru a window.
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Re: Fire!

#1683

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:13 pm

Nicolas Delesalle

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Une bonne nouvelle : toutes les œuvres d’art ont été sauvées. Le trésor de la cathédrale est intact, la couronne d’épines, les saints sacrements. #NOTRE_DAME

Translated from French by Microsoft
Good news: all the works of art were saved. The treasure of the Cathedral is intact, the Crown of thorns, the Holy sacraments. #NOTRE_DAME
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Re: Fire!

#1684

Post by MN-Skeptic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 pm

A firefighter shares information about the challenges of fighting a fire such as Notre Dame's -

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Re: Fire!

#1685

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:19 pm

Sécurité Civile Fr

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Hundreds of firemen of the Paris Fire Brigade are doing everything they can to bring the terrible #NotreDame fire under control. All means are being used, except for water-bombing aircrafts which, if used, could lead to the collapse of the entire structure of the cathedral.

2:38 PM - 15 Apr 2019
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Re: Fire!

#1686

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:21 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:05 pm
Basic humanity is like a muscle. You have to exercise it, or it stops working properly.
It's an area where I need a lot of exercise. Probably more regular exercise than I get. But I don't think I'm the only one. If you get my drift.
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Re: Fire!

#1687

Post by SLQ » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:29 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:19 pm
Sécurité Civile Fr

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Hundreds of firemen of the Paris Fire Brigade are doing everything they can to bring the terrible #NotreDame fire under control. All means are being used, except for water-bombing aircrafts which, if used, could lead to the collapse of the entire structure of the cathedral.

2:38 PM - 15 Apr 2019
So a diss to Trump's dumb idea (which is the wrong technology -- it makes sense for forest fires, not for building fires.)
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Re: Fire!

#1688

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:35 pm

The Spectator Index

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IMAGE: Notre Dame Cathedral burning
Image
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Re: Fire!

#1689

Post by AndyinPA » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:37 pm

OMG. That leaves me breathless.

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Re: Fire!

#1690

Post by MN-Skeptic » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:44 pm

I’m reading a NYTimes article about the fire and the article states that France is the owner of the Cathedral.
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Re: Fire!

#1691

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:46 pm

Whoa, that’s the first overhead I’ve seen. That’s an awesome awful amazing image.
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Re: Fire!

#1692

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:50 pm

https://www.chron.com/world/article/bef ... o-17230452

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In this file photo taken on June 26, 2018, workers measure a wall as they start the restoration works on an ancient and damaged part of Notre Dame cathedral (cathedrale Notre-Dame de Paris) in Paris.
More photos at the link.
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Re: Fire!

#1693

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:52 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:35 pm
The Spectator Index

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IMAGE: Notre Dame Cathedral burning
Image
Perhaps fierceredpanda could consider the image a metaphor for the Roman Catholic Church — gutted from within by hellfire.
Edit: no snark intended at all, I’m blown away by the image.
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Re: Fire!

#1694

Post by Kendra » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:57 pm

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:44 pm
I’m reading a NYTimes article about the fire and the article states that France is the owner of the Cathedral.
I heard the same on the radio. Came about during the revolution. Heard some comments on MSNBC that the concern now is keeping it from spreading.

A couple of years ago during a very bad accident and shut down of local businesses for hours, one restaurant took it upon themselves to prepare food and refreshments for the first responders. I hope that can happen here if possible.

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Re: Fire!

#1695

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:04 pm

Reports now that firefighters think they can save the bell towers. :thumbs:
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Re: Fire!

#1696

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:06 pm

Also seeing reports that the rose windows have been lost - the lead melted.
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Re: Fire!

#1697

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:13 pm

The first time I visited Notre Dame was a bit unusual. My wife was deployed, and we met in Europe for her mid-tour leave, over the Christmas holidays. I flew over a couple of days early with the kids, who were 7 and 9 at the time - landed in England, spent about 48 hours there, then to Frankfurt. Met my wife there, and we drove to Paris the next day. Her mother and grandmother - who was French - met us there, at the hotel near des Halles. We fell asleep pretty quick, but what with the 10 time zones, the kids, all that jazz, my time clock was still totally hosed.

Don't know how long I'd slept when I woke up, but it was late and I was very awake. My wife was sound asleep, a kid curled up against each side. I went for a walk. Wound up at Notre Dame - it was crowded, but I got in for a minute or two. Looked around, and realized why everything was so busy. It was the tail end of Midnight Mass. Will not ever forget that.
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Re: Fire!

#1698

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:16 pm

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Some good news... Paris fire department on French TV: "The structure of the cathedral will survive." #NotreDame
How stable will the outer walls of the nave be without the roof?
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Re: Fire!

#1699

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:16 pm

Bit of dark humor. On the official site, there’s both French and English.
The Cathedral of Notre-Dame de Paris is a church. property of the state, the clergy is receiving for the Roman Catholic cult.
http://www.notredamedeparis.fr
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Re: Fire!

#1700

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:18 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:16 pm
Hala Gorani

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Some good news... Paris fire department on French TV: "The structure of the cathedral will survive." #NotreDame
How stable will the outer walls of the nave be without the roof?
Depends on whether the vaulting and arches made it, I'd guess.
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