Train Wreck - Train Derailment

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tek
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#526

Post by tek » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:11 pm

Azastan wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:58 pm
In general, yes.

But I (and I bet Kendra has as well) have sat for many minutes at some of the at-grade crossings in the Kent Valley where workers are switching trains on tracks, and as long as the train is within a certain distance of the crossing, that crossing gate will be down. It's not because of a train actually moving along the track and crossing, either. The train cars will be sitting on the track, not moving, and the automobile cars will be sitting on the road, also not moving.
Yes, absolutely.

But that doesn't happen on these LIRR crossings. These trains fly through, there are no switching movements near these crossings..
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#527

Post by Kendra » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:13 pm

Azastan wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:58 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:47 pm

If that is what happened (if!), in my opinion the driver of the vehicle absolutely deserved to die. I do not understand and cannot forgive that level of murderous stupidity. There is never any excuse for driving around crossing barriers. Those barriers are not like (for example) rock fall signs warning people warning of a small possibility of a problem. No, if crossing barriers are closed it means that a big heavy unstoppable train will definitely be thundering through very soon.
In general, yes.

But I (and I bet Kendra has as well) have sat for many minutes at some of the at-grade crossings in the Kent Valley where workers are switching trains on tracks, and as long as the train is within a certain distance of the crossing, that crossing gate will be down. It's not because of a train actually moving along the track and crossing, either. The train cars will be sitting on the track, not moving, and the automobile cars will be sitting on the road, also not moving.
Yep. The Sounder trains too when a train is docked at the Kent Station taking on passengers, any crossings close to it will be arms down too.
Off Topic
Pro tip - just to the west of the western crossings on Willis street, take a right hand turn (gas station right there) and the road goes south and then east and the road goes under a train bridge and back on my way. Although, the tracks on the east can be a pain, but I think it's 266th St, and the road goes under the tracks there as well.

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#528

Post by Volkonski » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:19 pm

pipistrelle wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:50 pm
Kendra wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:46 pm
I live in a city that has two sets of train tracks going through it, and I know the frustration of having to wait for the long ones to roll through. City has really been putting up any kind of barricade they can to make going around the crossing guards pretty damn hard. Plus some of the major routes that criss-cross the valley have been built up so that the road goes above the tracks.
But commuter and passenger trains are short and go through quickly. Not like 10-minute freights.
Commuter trains close road crossings very frequently. This can also lead to frustration. At that Westbury crossing there are trains coming thru every few minutes during rush hour.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#529

Post by Somerset » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm

Kendra wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:46 pm
I live in a city that has two sets of train tracks going through it, and I know the frustration of having to wait for the long ones to roll through. City has really been putting up any kind of barricade they can to make going around the crossing guards pretty damn hard. Plus some of the major routes that criss-cross the valley have been built up so that the road goes above the tracks.
A bit off topic, but this also isn't a problem unique to the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#530

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:00 pm

Went around gates once. The gates had been down for a half hour while we were nearby, a security guard told us they occasionally get stuck, and in open flat country we had a clear view in both directions for quite a distance, so we went around cautiously.

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#531

Post by Northland10 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:06 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:25 pm
L.I.R.R. Accident: How a Hazardous Rail Crossing Became a Deadly Crash Site

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/nyre ... &smtyp=cur
It had long been considered a dangerous crossing, with more than 200 commuter trains barreling by every day, traveling up to 80 miles per hour — even as streams of cars waited to drive over the tracks. It was so worrisome it was one of seven hazardous crossings along a 20-mile stretch of Long Island Rail Road track that was scheduled to be eliminated, replaced with a bridge for trains and an underpass for vehicles.

The construction work at the School Street crossing, in Nassau County, was set to begin next year. But that was not soon enough to avoid a rush-hour tragedy on Tuesday.
Also from the article, which may give some insight into possibly why they went around the gate.
The vehicle involved in the crash had been at a nearby shopping strip before it headed toward the crossing, according to employees and customers of the barber shop, Los Primos.

One barber at Los Primos said the men had come in at about 5 p.m. Tuesday for haircuts, then went to a bar and restaurant next door. They left after a couple of hours, the barber said.

As they left, he said, they had a minor accident — he described it as a fender-bender — with another car. The other driver said she would call the police, the barber said.

She returned to her car to make the call, he said. The men pulled away and headed toward the railroad tracks.
I suspect their judgment and their ability to drive was impaired. Sad. When I was on a train that hit a car at near 70 mph (miraculously, the driver and passenger survived, likely due to the angle which pushed the vehicle into the air, but out of the way), it was determined that the driver has DWI.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#532

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:33 am

Somerset wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm
Kendra wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:46 pm
I live in a city that has two sets of train tracks going through it, and I know the frustration of having to wait for the long ones to roll through. City has really been putting up any kind of barricade they can to make going around the crossing guards pretty damn hard. Plus some of the major routes that criss-cross the valley have been built up so that the road goes above the tracks.
A bit off topic, but this also isn't a problem unique to the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw
True (and I love that commercial), but it's been mitigated in much of the world through engineering - specifically by "grade-separating" the train tracks so that roads go over or under rather than across. The route I'm taking today is about 100 miles (London to Coventry), and I don't recall seeing a road crossing. Same was true for my former commute (~75 miles). Crossings haven't been completely eliminated in the UK/Europe, but they're much less common than in the US.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#533

Post by Sam the Centipede » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:01 pm

Crossings: to get separated crossing (bridges for the trains or the road vehicles), it really helps to have a slightly lumpy country. Lumpy enough that it's easy to have above the other, but not so lumpy that it's difficult to build railroads in the first place (coz trains don't like hills, no sir!).

The Netherlands and Denmark have significant numbers of level crossings, because everything (roads, rails, houses, fields, etc.) is all at the uniform ground level.

For slightly lumpier countries (France, Britain, Germany ... well, almost everywhere else), often the railroad tracks are not at the natural ground level at any point because they're at an average flat level, so slighly higher (on an embankment) or lower (in a cutting) than where roads go, so it's easy to route the road under or over the track by choosing an appropriate crossing point.

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#534

Post by Northland10 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:29 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:01 pm
Crossings: to get separated crossing (bridges for the trains or the road vehicles), it really helps to have a slightly lumpy country. Lumpy enough that it's easy to have above the other, but not so lumpy that it's difficult to build railroads in the first place (coz trains don't like hills, no sir!).

The Netherlands and Denmark have significant numbers of level crossings, because everything (roads, rails, houses, fields, etc.) is all at the uniform ground level.

For slightly lumpier countries (France, Britain, Germany ... well, almost everywhere else), often the railroad tracks are not at the natural ground level at any point because they're at an average flat level, so slighly higher (on an embankment) or lower (in a cutting) than where roads go, so it's easy to route the road under or over the track by choosing an appropriate crossing point.
Back in the day when cities/states felt they could insist that railroads spend money on infrastructure to keep the people safe, or even spending town money on safety, they had grade separated many of the tracks in Chicago, usually by running them on an raised embankment. So they would not separate the community with a big hill cutting through town, Winnetka (Chicago area north shore) had the tracks lowered into a trench, so all of the roads are still level.

It is much harder to do this now, so there is a group called CREATE that helps plan and execute grade separation projects (and other projects to relieve the rail traffic choke points in the giant choke point that is Chicago). These are paid for by a mix of federal, state, and local government funds, along with funds from the private railroads. Unfortunately, there are limited funds so the grade separations are usually used on the most pressing areas due to safety, or places where the train traffic causes heavy auto traffic backups.

Grade separations are not perfect either as some truck drivers don't pay attention to bridge heights.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#535

Post by MN-Skeptic » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:31 pm

MAGA - Morons Are Governing America

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#536

Post by Azastan » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:43 pm

I know there must be a logical explanation, but if there's a flashing sign warning drivers about the low height, why not have the sign low enough to let drivers that if they can't fit under it, don't go under the bridge?

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#537

Post by MN-Skeptic » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm

From the FAQ page of the 11foot8 website -
Why don’t they fix it?

Depends on who “they” are and on what “fix” means.

- The North Carolina Railroad Company owns the train trestle, and their concern is primarily with keeping the trains running and keeping them running safely. So their concern is mainly with reducing the impact of the truck crashes on the actual structure of the train trestle. As far as they are concerned, they solved that problem by installing the crash beam.
- The city of Durham has installed “low clearance” signs on each of the 3 blocks leading up to the trestle (Gregson is a one-way road). There is a sensor that triggers an LED blackout warning sign when In overheight vehicle approaches the trestle (more info below). Several blocks ahead of the trestle the speed limit is 25 MPH. The folks from the city planning department said that they made an effort to prevent accidents.
- The North Carolina Dept. of Transportation maintains the road, but not the signage. I suspect they have much bigger problems to deal with statewide than this bridge.
Could they install a low-clearance bar?

A low clearance bar is a bar suspended by chains ahead of the bridge. Overheight vehicles hit that bar first and the noise alerts the driver to to the problem. I understand that this approach has been successful in other places, but it’s not practical here. There are many overheight trucks that have to be able to drive right up to the bridge and turn onto Peabody St. in order to deliver supplies to several restaurants. Making Peabody St inaccessible from Gregson St would make the restaurant owners and the delivery drivers very unhappy.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#538

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:06 pm

I live in a city (hilly) and state (also hilly, or "lumpy") so I've seen a lot of those kinds of accidents in the area. Most of the bridges aren't a problem, but there are always some truckers who don't pay enough attention.

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#539

Post by Azastan » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:14 pm

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
From the FAQ page of the 11foot8 website -
Thanks! I didn't see the FAQ page since I only looked at the video, not the website.

It sounds as if drivers have gotten plenty of warning (and I did notice that a lot of the people not paying attention were driving rented box trucks).

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#540

Post by tek » Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:30 pm

I had to laugh at the campers/RVs having their air conditioners stripped off..
It looks like several didn't even know it happened..

There were many "grade separation" projects in the 1910s-1930s.. and many of those created these low clearance underpasses.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#541

Post by Northland10 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:27 pm

tek wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:30 pm
I had to laugh at the campers/RVs having their air conditioners stripped off..
It looks like several didn't even know it happened..

There were many "grade separation" projects in the 1910s-1930s.. and many of those created these low clearance underpasses.
One of the attempted goals of the current Metra/Union Pacific bridge replacement on the North Line in Chicago, is to slightly raise the bridge height. They were built back in the time of lower bridges and trucks have gotten taller.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#542

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:27 pm

Azastan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:14 pm
MN-Skeptic wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
From the FAQ page of the 11foot8 website -
Thanks! I didn't see the FAQ page since I only looked at the video, not the website.

It sounds as if drivers have gotten plenty of warning (and I did notice that a lot of the people not paying attention were driving rented box trucks).
From what I have seen many accidents happen with rental trucks where the drivers don't have the feeling for the height. I guess that rental drivers may likely be somewhat distracted by driving an uncommon large sized vehicle and may be looking more to keep their lane rather and looking at the instruments than observing the street ahead of them. At this crossing there seems to be a fair number of trucks passing thru the red light too.

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#543

Post by Volkonski » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:30 pm

Not a wreck but an expansion of the freight carrying New York & Atlantic Railway. :)

Most New Yorkers have not heard of the New York & Atlantic Railway, a freight line in the middle of New York City. But the line is growing, as rail freight emerges as a viable option.


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/nyre ... t-nyc.html
City officials have been working to reduce the inundation of trucks on New York’s streets. The trucks carry about 90 percent of the city’s freight, more than most major American cities, contributing to the city’s worsening gridlock and pouring greenhouse gases into the air.

By contrast, the city’s rail lines transport just 2 percent of New York’s cargo.

To change that, city officials are investing tens of millions of dollars to upgrade the freight train’s corridors, including modernizing several rail depots.

The railway will also handle more freight because another little-known piece of the region’s transportation network will soon be expanded: a service that floats rail cars from New Jersey across New York Harbor by barge to Brooklyn, where they connect with New York and Atlantic’s line.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#544

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:32 pm

Even though I love trains, I keep having to remind myself that this isn't a political events thread.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#545

Post by neeneko » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:02 pm

RTH10260 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:27 pm
From what I have seen many accidents happen with rental trucks where the drivers don't have the feeling for the height. I guess that rental drivers may likely be somewhat distracted by driving an uncommon large sized vehicle and may be looking more to keep their lane rather and looking at the instruments than observing the street ahead of them. At this crossing there seems to be a fair number of trucks passing thru the red light too.
A while back I watched a few of the longer videos from the bridge. It probably does not help that drivers seem to be really aggressive, there, which I imagine increases the stress levels of people already unfamiliar with their vehicle and wondering if that unusual 'warning sign' is an 'always on' thing or for them in particular.

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#546

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:01 pm

Stringer News

@Stringernews
5m5 minutes ago
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Center Moriches, NY- A tractor trailer driver was hospitalized after crashing into the LIRR bridge on Montauk Hwy near Old Neck Rd. this afternoon. The truck, heading west, didn't heed the multiple warning signs and struck the 11'6" overpass and flipped over.
Image

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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#547

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:04 pm

How the hell did that one happen? I can't quite see how the physics would work to have the truck hit, roll, and slide through like that.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#548

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:05 pm

This is the LIRR overpass near our cottage. This is not a real accident. It is from a Netflix show "Friends from College" that shot an episode in our town.
oVZnG7BtRPCpFyujAPtnVw.jpg
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#549

Post by tek » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:26 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:04 pm
How the hell did that one happen? I can't quite see how the physics would work to have the truck hit, roll, and slide through like that.
My guess is it has to do with the oblique angle of the overpass... I think the trailer slid (was pushed) to the right (as we see it) and flipped the cab.
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Re: Train Wreck - Train Derailment

#550

Post by Volkonski » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:28 pm

Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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