Plane Crash - Jet Crash

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RTH10260
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#901

Post by RTH10260 »

Had it not been a 737 MAX this would have been a non-event. Shit happens and such procedures are trained. Losing one engine means seek the nearest (qualifying) airport asap.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#902

Post by tencats »

Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX system baffles some involved in developing the jet
March 26, 2019 at 5:00 pm
Boeing has long embraced the power of redundancy to protect its jets and their passengers from a range of potential disruptions, from electrical faults to lightning strikes.

The company typically uses two or even three separate components as fail-safes for crucial tasks to reduce the possibility of a disastrous failure. Its most advanced planes, for instance, have three flight computers that function independently, with each computer containing three different processors manufactured by different companies.

So even some of the people who have worked on Boeing’s new 737 MAX airplane were baffled to learn that the company had designed an automated safety system that abandoned the principles of component redundancy, ultimately entrusting the automated decision-making to just one sensor — a type of sensor that was known to fail. Boeing’s rival, Airbus, has typically depended on three such sensors.

“A single point of failure is an absolute no-no,” said one former Boeing engineer who worked on the MAX, who requested anonymity to speak frankly about the program in an interview with The Seattle Times. “That is just a huge system engineering oversight. To just have missed it, I can’t imagine how.”

Image
The angle-of-attack (AOA) sensor of the 737 MAX is the bottom piece of equipment below just below the cockpit windshield.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... n-the-jet/
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#903

Post by RTH10260 »

tencats wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:57 pm
Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX system baffles some involved in developing the jet
March 26, 2019 at 5:00 pm
:snippity:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... n-the-jet/
As a lay person I too was baffled to learn this. What was much more astonishing was that the dual instruments were available as a costliy option to the airlines, as was the pilot warning light. I guess this will be shown to be a glaring error in the FAA oversight. I want to hear how many engineers within Boeing pointed this point of failure out and were overruled by management.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#904

Post by Dan1100 »

tencats wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:57 pm Lack of redundancies on Boeing 737 MAX system baffles some involved in developing the jet
March 26, 2019 at 5:00 pm
Boeing has long embraced the power of redundancy to protect its jets and their passengers from a range of potential disruptions, from electrical faults to lightning strikes.

The company typically uses two or even three separate components as fail-safes for crucial tasks to reduce the possibility of a disastrous failure. Its most advanced planes, for instance, have three flight computers that function independently, with each computer containing three different processors manufactured by different companies.

So even some of the people who have worked on Boeing’s new 737 MAX airplane were baffled to learn that the company had designed an automated safety system that abandoned the principles of component redundancy, ultimately entrusting the automated decision-making to just one sensor — a type of sensor that was known to fail. Boeing’s rival, Airbus, has typically depended on three such sensors.

“A single point of failure is an absolute no-no,” said one former Boeing engineer who worked on the MAX, who requested anonymity to speak frankly about the program in an interview with The Seattle Times. “That is just a huge system engineering oversight. To just have missed it, I can’t imagine how.”

Image
The angle-of-attack (AOA) sensor of the 737 MAX is the bottom piece of equipment below just below the cockpit windshield.
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... n-the-jet/
:eek2:
Even little single engine Cessnas and Pipers built in the 1960's have 2 separate ignition systems with 2 spark plugs on each cylinder. A part of every preflight runup is to make sure that the engine continues to run on each of the separate ignition systems.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#905

Post by RTH10260 »

Juan Browne on the road doing Q&A re Boeing 737 MAX

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#906

Post by tencats »

Boeing Proposes Fixes for Grounded 737 Max Aircraft
March 28, 2019
:snippity: Boeing’s recommended remedy for the 737 Max includes a major revamp of the MCAS platform. MCAS will now get data from both of the plane’s angle of attack sensors instead of just one. If those sensors are 5.5 degrees or more apart, MCAS will shut itself off and not attempt to nudge the nose of the aircraft down. The pilot’s controls will display a notification if that happens. Boeing will also roll out new pilot training that focuses on the MCAS system, ensuring flight crews will know how to disable MCAS in the event of an issue.

Early reports on the most recent Ethiopian Airlines crash have suggested that an optional cockpit display could have helped the crew avert disaster. Boeing charges extra for that display, which shows the plane’s angle of attack and the status of the sensors. Boeing will now include that display free on 737 Max aircraft.

The FAA will need to sign off on the proposed fixes, and that’s going to take time. Analysts believe it will be at least six weeks before the 737 Max is allowed to carry passengers again. However, some sources say Boeing will be lucky to get the 737 Max flying in three months. After the FAA approves the plan, it will take just a few days to roll out the new software and get 737 pilots fully trained on MCAS.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/288 ... x-aircraft
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#907

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Ethiopian Airlines pilots followed Boeing's emergency procedures before crash: report

By Helen Regan, CNN

Updated 0734 GMT (1534 HKT) April 3, 2019

(CNN)Pilots flying Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 initially followed emergency procedures that were laid out by Boeing before the plane nose-dived into the ground, according to preliminary findings reported in the Wall Street Journal.

Citing unnamed sources familiar with the investigation, the WSJ reported that despite following the steps, which included turning off an automated flight-control system, pilots could not regain control of the Boeing 737 MAX 8.

CNN has not been able to confirm details of the report.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/03/afri ... index.html
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#908

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Faulty 737 Sensor in Lion Air Crash Linked to U.S. Repairer
By Alan Levin and Harry Suhartono
April 3, 2019, 1:42 AM GMT+2 Updated on April 3, 2019, 4:57 AM GMT+2
Florida company had worked on 737 Max angle-of-attack device
Investigators focused on role of sensors in Boeing jet crashes


A faulty sensor on a Lion Air 737 Max that’s been linked to the jetliner’s deadly crash last October and a harrowing ride the previous day was repaired in a U.S. aircraft maintenance facility before the tragedy, according to investigative documents.

Accident investigators in Indonesia, home of Lion Air, and the U.S., where Boeing Co., the plane’s manufacturer, is based, have been examining the work that a Florida repair shop previously performed on the so-called angle-of-attack sensor, according to briefing documents prepared for Indonesia’s parliament.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... epair-shop
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#909

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »

It HAD to be a Florida repair person! :bored:
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#910

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#911

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#912

Post by chancery »

Patrick Smith, a fine writer who is a commercial pilot, has been publishing interesting pieces about all aspects of aviation since 2002. On April 6 he posted an interesting take about one aspect of the Ethiopian 737 Max crash at his blog, Ask The Pilot:

http://www.askthepilot.com/ethiopian-737max-crash

(Juan Browne seems to be a thoughtful, well-informed, and conscientious commentator, but the slow pace and sometimes halting nature of his delivery is painful to me. Too bad he doesn’t post transcripts.)
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#913

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#914

Post by RTH10260 »

blancolirio wrote: Published on 12 Mar 2019
New information from the NTSB and the FDR from the Giant Air 3591 crash near Houston Intercontinental airport on 23 Feb 2019.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#915

Post by RTH10260 »

Boeing and $$$

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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#916

Post by tencats »

Boeing says 'standard' alert system was not operable on all Max 737 airplanes
Tue April 30, 2019 https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/business ... index.html
An alert system that was supposed to be a standard feature on Boeing's 737 Max aircraft "was not operable on all airplanes," the company has said.
Boeing said in a statement Monday that the function wasn't working on some of its planes because it was mistakenly linked to an optional feature, the angle of attack (AOA) indicator.
"The disagree alert was intended to be a standard, standalone feature on MAX airplanes. However, the disagree alert was not operable on all airplanes because the feature was not activated as intended," it said. "Unless an airline opted for the angle of attack indicator, the disagree alert was not operable."
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#917

Post by tek »

That's actually a bit of prevarication..

On some airframes where AoA disagree warning was purchased, it wasn't actually enabled so it doesn't work.
On most airframes, where AoA disagree was NOT purchased, the warning never works.
Some MAX pilot chatter says they were trained that AoA disagree warning always works.

so lots to churn thru here :(
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#918

Post by RTH10260 »

tencats wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:49 pm Boeing says 'standard' alert system was not operable on all Max 737 airplanes
Tue April 30, 2019 https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/30/business ... index.html
An alert system that was supposed to be a standard feature on Boeing's 737 Max aircraft "was not operable on all airplanes," the company has said.
Boeing said in a statement Monday that the function wasn't working on some of its planes because it was mistakenly linked to an optional feature, the angle of attack (AOA) indicator.
"The disagree alert was intended to be a standard, standalone feature on MAX airplanes. However, the disagree alert was not operable on all airplanes because the feature was not activated as intended," it said. "Unless an airline opted for the angle of attack indicator, the disagree alert was not operable."
That must have been the cryptic message that was issued about finding another problem while they were analyzing the last crash.

I guess airlines will have much less options in the Flight Management Computer to chose from in the future over the whole industry, insurance companies will add some wording to the contracts.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#919

Post by tencats »

The many human errors that brought down the Boeing 737 Max
In-Depth-The Verge-May 2, 2019, 8:03am EDT
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/2/18518 ... r-mcas-faa
The story of the Max is ultimately the story of the Darwinian business cycle where mature companies like Boeing face constant threats from new products, new competitors, and the search for new growth. Sometimes this motivates them to new heights of innovation and progress. Other times, it prompts them to pull everything back in the name of cost-cutting.

The events that led to these two fatal crashes were set in motion nearly a decade ago, and they started not with Boeing, but with the company’s European archrival, Airbus.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#920

Post by Addie »

CNN
A Boeing 737 coming from Guantanamo Bay slid off the runway and fell into St. Johns River in Florida, officials say

CNN) — A Boeing 737 plane arriving from Guantanamo Bay in Cuba went off the runway into the St. Johns River in Florida on Friday night, Jacksonville Mayor Lenny Curry said. ...

The plane is in shallow water and not submerged, and everyone is alive, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office said.

The plane slid off a runway into the St. Johns River at 9:40 p.m. ET, a spokesman from the Naval Air Station Jacksonville said. It appears to have skidded off the airport runway while trying to land and ended up in the river, CNN affiliate WJXT reported.

The plane was arriving "from Naval Station Guantanamo Bay, Cuba into Naval Air Station Jacksonville " and crashed into the river at the end of the runway, Naval Air Station Jacksonville.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#921

Post by Addie »

Associated Press
The Latest: NTSB recovers data recorder from plane in river



3:30 p.m.

Federal investigators have taken possession of the flight data recorder from the chartered jet that ran off a military base runway and into the St. Johns River in north Florida.

The National Transportation Safety Board tweeted a photo of an investigator holding the orange recorder that was recovered Saturday from the Boeing 737 that overran the runway at Naval Air Station Jacksonville the previous night.

The military charter landed hard in a thunderstorm carrying 143 people from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Everyone on board was alive and there were no serious injuries.

The plane remains stuck in shallow water.

Marine units from local sheriff and fire departments joined first responders from the naval air station in helping passengers and crew who had lined up on the plane's wings to safety.
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#922

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"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#923

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Maybenaut wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:38 pm 41 die in Aeroflot crash

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ru ... 1f4e576b94
Nasty! It's one of those incidents where one can think "how awful that so many people died" or "how wonderful that so many people survived" … or both!
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#924

Post by RoadScholar »

Russians. Oy.

On Sunday, RIA Novosti, a Russian state-run news site, initially reported that all passengers had evacuated safely, even as videos showed the plane engulfed in flames. Before authorities announced the death toll, Aeroflot issued a statement praising its crew for a swift evacuation.

“The evacuation was carried out in 55 seconds while the industry norm is 90 seconds,” the statement read. “The commander of the aircraft was the last to abandon the burning machine.”

“The crew had to request an emergency return to the airport,” the statement added. “After landing at Sheremetyevo, the engines caught fire and were quickly put out. The passengers evacuated the aircraft on emergency slides. All in need were provided medical care.”
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Re: Plane Crash - Jet Crash

#925

Post by RTH10260 »

Aviation Update

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