Another Shooting

User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 13661
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: Another Shooting

#8176

Post by Kendra » Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:14 pm

Lani wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:08 pm
Update - people were enjoying a cookout. Six wounded, one dead.
So...very fine people on both sides? :sarcasm:

User avatar
RTH10260
Posts: 21428
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Near the Swiss Alps

Re: Another Shooting

#8177

Post by RTH10260 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:14 pm

CNN wrote:It appears that the gunman targeted someone in the crowd, Harrison said. Investigators are trying to determine if the two cookouts were connected.

User avatar
Fortinbras
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:08 am

Re: Another Shooting

#8178

Post by Fortinbras » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:20 pm

The shooting at the San Diego synagogue is reported on page 25 of the Sunday NY Times.

I am cranked that it was considered unworthy of a front page mention.

User avatar
sad-cafe
Posts: 905
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8179

Post by sad-cafe » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:28 pm

another day in trumpmerika

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7957
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Another Shooting

#8180

Post by RoadScholar » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:37 pm

In all fairness, there was a kid here in Bawl’mer who shot another kid for insulting his shoes.

There’s probably no deep significance to this particular shooting.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
Fortinbras
Posts: 2910
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:08 am

Re: Another Shooting

#8181

Post by Fortinbras » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:25 pm

Is it my imagination, or do we seem to be having more mass shootings under this NRA-supporting President?

Jeffrey
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8182

Post by Jeffrey » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:39 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:37 pm
In all fairness, there was a kid here in Bawl’mer who shot another kid for insulting his shoes.

There’s probably no deep significance to this particular shooting.
Early reports were that the shooting happened near or at a black church which made people think it was another Dylan Roof situation particularly with the recent Mosque and Synagogue shootings.

User avatar
Whatever4
Posts: 12083
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:36 am
Location: Mainely in the plain
Occupation: Visiting doctors.

Re: Another Shooting

#8183

Post by Whatever4 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:05 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:36 pm
I get that Nazis are bad but a forum that tracks and dissects extremists has an interest in reading the manifesto to figure out how a human being got to the point of shooting up a synagogue that also has a preschool attached, meaning infanticide was part of the foiled plan.
:yeah:

My take is that you have to know the enemy to defeat it. Nazis have to come from somewhere, they don’t spring fully formed from the head of Zeus. Their vile theories form in dark places.

I’m torn on this. Yes, manifestos get passed around and probably inspire new cockroaches, but I also think we need to know where the roaches are gathering and what their twisted logic is coming up with. Usually, though, I just feel sick.
"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
-- Sen. King (I-ME)

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7957
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Another Shooting

#8184

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:02 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:39 am
RoadScholar wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:37 pm
In all fairness, there was a kid here in Bawl’mer who shot another kid for insulting his shoes.

There’s probably no deep significance to this particular shooting.
Early reports were that the shooting happened near or at a black church which made people think it was another Dylan Roof situation particularly with the recent Mosque and Synagogue shootings.
Near two churches, but not believed to be connected to them. Witnesses say shooter was black, and shooting was not random but targeted. My bet is on the cause being a petty beef over a woman or money/drugs.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10415
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8185

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:16 am

wserra wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:10 pm
The letter of the First Amendment, of course, doesn't apply here. The spirit, however, should.
The spirit of the First Amendment is that the government should not be able to restrict key human liberties. It's not that people should be able to say whatever they want wherever they want, and certainly not that they should be able to do so without criticism. Arguing that certain things should not be said offends neither the letter nor the spirit of the Amendment. That was a poor argument.

That said, Estiveo, I think the fine people comment was over the top. There are legitimate arguments on both sides when it comes to the wisdom of dissecting the manifestos that these lunatics write. I agree with the view that not spreading is a better choice, but that's a relatively recent shift on my part, and I still think it's a fairly close call.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

Jeffrey
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8186

Post by Jeffrey » Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:49 am

listeme wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:58 pm
(I'm never really sympathetic to the idea of "don't say his name" either, as I don't believe a wish for notoriety is enough to explain it and there's more to learn than harm caused by people hearing his name.) (Then again, I follow a lot of cold cases and part of that is trying to figure out WHO DID IT, and so my goals are already opposite some of the "don't say his name" crowd.)
I don't think the not saying his name thing is based on a theory that shooters do it for notoriety. I think the reasoning is that you end up memorizing the name of the attacker while the victims simply become nameless statistics. Sort of along the lines that as long as someone remembers you, you're immortal. It makes sense to me.

User avatar
listeme
Posts: 5402
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

Re: Another Shooting

#8187

Post by listeme » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:35 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:49 am
listeme wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:58 pm
(I'm never really sympathetic to the idea of "don't say his name" either, as I don't believe a wish for notoriety is enough to explain it and there's more to learn than harm caused by people hearing his name.) (Then again, I follow a lot of cold cases and part of that is trying to figure out WHO DID IT, and so my goals are already opposite some of the "don't say his name" crowd.)
I don't think the not saying his name thing is based on a theory that shooters do it for notoriety. I think the reasoning is that you end up memorizing the name of the attacker while the victims simply become nameless statistics. Sort of along the lines that as long as someone remembers you, you're immortal. It makes sense to me.
Yeah, I've heard this argument as well, and it does make sense -- except I don't think it's all that possible to accomplish. I mean, we study the bad guys in history all the time. Are we going to stop doing that?

I do see the "don't say his name! that's what he waaaaants you to doooooo" comments all over the place. I guess that's not really a theory, per se :mrgreen:

Somewhere there's a hideous creature right now reading this manifesto. There are also many of us reading it to try to understand how to fight it. There are law enforcement people coming up with new strategies of stopping the hideous creature from implementing his own plan. (Sorry, it's always a him.)

It's complicated.
We're used to being told it's our fault that men don't listen to us.

User avatar
Estiveo
Posts: 7972
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Trouble's Howse

Re: Another Shooting

#8188

Post by Estiveo » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:52 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:16 am
wserra wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:10 pm
The letter of the First Amendment, of course, doesn't apply here. The spirit, however, should.
The spirit of the First Amendment is that the government should not be able to restrict key human liberties. It's not that people should be able to say whatever they want wherever they want, and certainly not that they should be able to do so without criticism. Arguing that certain things should not be said offends neither the letter nor the spirit of the Amendment. That was a poor argument.

That said, Estiveo, I think the fine people comment was over the top. There are legitimate arguments on both sides when it comes to the wisdom of dissecting the manifestos that these lunatics write. I agree with the view that not spreading is a better choice, but that's a relatively recent shift on my part, and I still think it's a fairly close call.
I demand my fine people manifesto be promulgated alongside all nazi manifestos amplified on this site.
Image Image Image Image Image

User avatar
HST's Ghost
Posts: 696
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:58 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8189

Post by HST's Ghost » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:06 am

Agree about the complexity of the issue regarding revealing identities etc., and as an ex-pat, the larger issue of these shootings actually has me scared to visit my father and brother who live in San Diego. I am pretty sure that my brother sends his son to a Jewish school.

Not trying to minimize the comment about it always being men, but one of the miniscule amount of female shooters is an interesting case, and I was an elementary school student in San Diego when it happened...
Spencer was the inspiration for the song "I Don't Like Mondays," written by Bob Geldof and Johnnie Fingers for their band the Boomtown Rats, which was released later that year.[15] Geldof and his band were in San Diego performing at The Roxy Theater, a small movie theater and concert hall in the Pacific Beach district, on February 27, 1979, and the preliminary legal proceedings against Spencer were headlining local news broadcasts.[20] I Don't Like Mondays was also the title of a 2006 television documentary about the event.[21]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevela ... San_Diego)
I grew up on Saturday matinees at the Roxy...
Either give me more wine or leave me alone. - Rumi

User avatar
listeme
Posts: 5402
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:09 am

Re: Another Shooting

#8190

Post by listeme » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:34 am

HST's Ghost wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:06 am
Agree about the complexity of the issue regarding revealing identities etc., and as an ex-pat, the larger issue of these shootings actually has me scared to visit my father and brother who live in San Diego. I am pretty sure that my brother sends his son to a Jewish school.

Not trying to minimize the comment about it always being men, but one of the miniscule amount of female shooters is an interesting case, and I was an elementary school student in San Diego when it happened...
Spencer was the inspiration for the song "I Don't Like Mondays," written by Bob Geldof and Johnnie Fingers for their band the Boomtown Rats, which was released later that year.[15] Geldof and his band were in San Diego performing at The Roxy Theater, a small movie theater and concert hall in the Pacific Beach district, on February 27, 1979, and the preliminary legal proceedings against Spencer were headlining local news broadcasts.[20] I Don't Like Mondays was also the title of a 2006 television documentary about the event.[21]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevela ... San_Diego)
I grew up on Saturday matinees at the Roxy...
Oh, that's fascinating -- I couldn't help note the brain injury and youth (and later epilepsy?) Thanks for that link.
We're used to being told it's our fault that men don't listen to us.

User avatar
voxpopuluxe
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:18 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8191

Post by voxpopuluxe » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:31 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:36 pm
I get that Nazis are bad but a forum that tracks and dissects extremists has an interest in reading the manifesto to figure out how a human being got to the point of shooting up a synagogue that also has a preschool attached, meaning infanticide was part of the foiled plan.
I don't really have an opinion on whether or not the curious should read this latest shooter's "manifesto"—I think it's a waste of time for anyone who isn't studying right-wing terrorism in the minutest detail, but wasting time isn't a disgrace. But it needs to be kept in mind that the shooter didn't write to explain himself or his motives but to obsfuscate them beneath layers of irony and misdirection. Nearly everything already written on radicalization and white supremacy will explain the shooter and his motives more clearly and honestly than what the shooter himself wrote.

An acquaintance with the manifesto might be useful in identifying the kinds of codes and phrases these guys like to speak in, but that's the extent of its usefulness, IMO. But that won't explain them, only demonstrate how they want others to see them.

I recommend Robert Evans' Ignore The Poway Synagogue Shooter’s Manifesto: Pay Attention To 8chan’s /pol/ Board.
How deep could the Deep State go if the Deep State could go deep?

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10415
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8192

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:19 am

Yeah.

I'm a big believer in the importance of watching - carefully - and reporting on what's going on in the communities that have become the source of hate and violence. I'm just not sure that carries over to the manifestos themselves. At least so far, this hasn't been the sort of forum that engages in the dissection of that kind of material, and I don't know if any of us have the expertise to do that kind of thing well - I don't think any of us are JJ McNab (could be wrong about that, of course).

Absent the kind of specialized knowledge that would enable us to draw solid conclusions from the manifestos themselves, I tend to think that linking to them, quoting directly from them, etc, isn't a great idea. It amplifies, which is bad, and I don't see a clear benefit that offsets that harm. (I could be wrong about that, about the level of specialized knowledge, and so on, and I'm open to convincing.)

Looking at the communities and groups from which this stuff arises is, I think, different. That at least arguably plays to one of our collective strengths - tracking and collating the stuff that allows for a full(er) picture of groups and networks like the Bundys, the birthers, the Denny's Indictment Coots.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

Jeffrey
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8193

Post by Jeffrey » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:41 pm

I’m not sure I understand Evans point. We know the shooter was radicalized by 8chan by reading the manifesto and we know the shooter was a Christchurch copycat because of the manifesto, you can’t skip the manifesto part of the investigation. And if the concern is “amplification” how is reading about “why Jews are evil” on 8chan different from reading it on the manifesto?

It’s inconsistent with the de facto policies applied to every other extremist group on the forum. Bundy and sovereign manifestos and screeds are regularly reposted full length and analyzed, including screeds that incite racial or religious hate/violence. I didn’t post the manifesto myself due to etiquette and instead shared what I felt were the highlights but I don’t see the problem with linking it.

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10415
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8194

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:47 pm

1: There's a difference between material that can incite and material that explicitly justifies mass-murder.

2: Once we know that the latest shooter's manifesto is 8-chan inspired, what else do we need to know from the manifesto? This shooter is extremely unlikely to have the opportunity to do it again.

3: The major concern with amplification isn't the spread of the generalized message. It's the spread of the individual notoriety. That's something the shooters want. The individual notoriety is also something - in addition to the hate - that can inspire future shooters. Discussing the generalities without linking mitigates that.

4: I guess my general attitude is this: there's some (if slight) harm that can come from linking directly and distributing. I don't see that there's an offsetting benefit. Therefore, why do it? Like I said, I'm persuadable regarding benefit. But I just don't see it right now.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

Jeffrey
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8195

Post by Jeffrey » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:05 pm

Well maybe for this recent guy the direct benefit of reading the manifesto is minimal since there’s really like three important nuggets total you can get from a summary. But in some future manifesto maybe some recognizes a phrase or something that indicates influences or something important the media missed. Either way a direct benefit doesn’t need to exist IMO. I just read the 600 page Parsons trial transcript this week even though there was really only two interesting things in it. Some people enjoy jumping into the filth.

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 7957
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Another Shooting

#8196

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:05 pm

The argument for denying them notoriety is bolstered by the fact that so many of them have a stated aim to “outdo” some previous killer.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

Jeffrey
Posts: 823
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Another Shooting

#8197

Post by Jeffrey » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:10 pm

I don't believe a wish for notoriety is enough to explain it
I think in the past notoriety was part of the motive. However this latest string of shootings seem to be motivated by terroristic goals, i.e. scaring as many people as possible. Individual fame isn't the main goal anymore.

User avatar
Lani
Posts: 4726
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:01 pm
Location: Some island in the Pacific

Re: Another Shooting

#8198

Post by Lani » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:15 am

Webp.net-resizeimage (3).jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Insert signature here: ____________________________________________________

User avatar
Addie
Posts: 33122
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:22 am
Location: downstairs

Re: Another Shooting

#8199

Post by Addie » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:28 pm

WCNC
2 dead, at least 4 injured after shooting on UNC Charlotte campus

Medic said two were pronounced dead at the scene. Two have been treated for life-threatening injuries and two treated for non-life-threatening injuries. Officials confirmed the shooter is a student.


Two people have died and four people are hurt after a shooting on UNC Charlotte's campus, Medic confirmed.

Medic said the two deceased were pronounced dead at the scene. Two people have been treated for life-threatening injuries and two have been treated for non-life-threatening injuries.

Sources tell NBC Charlotte that students were giving a presentation in a classroom when the shooting occurred. The two dead are reportedly two white males, but their ages and names have not yet been released.

CMPD said the scene is secure and one person is in custody. Police say there is no reason to believe anyone else is involved.

User avatar
Indigo
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:21 am
Location: Where the Sewer Meets the Sea

Re: Another Shooting

#8200

Post by Indigo » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:19 pm

I thought the following story would have made the national news but it was absent from the network news programs I watch, otherwise lost in the general mayhem elsewhere I suppose. "David L. Madden, an ex-Marine and suspect in a 2015 missing person case, shot a Rice County sheriff and undersheriff Monday. He shot himself and killed his father at his father’s home near Raymond, Kansas."

https://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime ... 50269.html

The Madden indictment for illegal machine gun possession (from a different source) states that the weapon was a fully automatic AK-47 manufactured in the German Democratic Republic, otherwise known as East Germany. It was originally manufactured as a machine gun and not modified later to fire fully automatic, as I believe the majority of full auto weapons involved in crimes are.

Incidents such as this are signs of a disintegrating society. I remember some claiming that "An armed society is a polite society." Seemed plausible enough to me when I first heard it. But the reality is that an armed society awash in weapons and under these circumstances is a murderous one. How incredibly sad.
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." --President George W. Bush

Post Reply

Return to “► ► Breaking News ◄ ◄”