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TollandRCR
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#2101

Post by TollandRCR »

In a bid to post the least popular note of the week, I would like to suggest that there are victims that we do not usually count in these shootings: the shooters themselves. Elliot Rodger was apparently receiving a load of psychiatric and psychological treatment. It did not work. We don't know about Jared Michael Padgett yet. Both lives were also lost. These kids were not trash to be discarded or animals to be put down. They were in need of help. Effective help. Greg Zanis carved crosses for Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. They were taken down. Whose perspective was the more humane, Zanis or those who protested his work? Which perspective is more likely to set us on a pathway to ending these slaughters?
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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listeme
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#2102

Post by listeme »

These kids were not trash to be discarded or animals to be put down. They were in need of help.Exactly.
We're used to being told it's our fault that men don't listen to us.

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mimi
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#2103

Post by mimi »

Jared Padgett was in JROTC. He apparently liked to talk about guns.





But, I see the tweets of his classmates. For the most part, the kids are saying they feel for his family. They say he was a nice kid. They're shaken, scared, upset. But they don't understand why he did what he did.





There are a few tweets with "rot in hell", but those are the exception.





Jared Padgett . Wow. I would NEVER think he would do something this awful. I just wonder what could push a person off the ledge like that




9 rounds of amo?? He could've taken so many people out. I'm just grateful for coming home yesterday. My heart is with Emilio's family.





& with Jared's because hating him won't help anything.The boy obviously had some kind of problem and its just as sad to see him go like that




Hating a dead boy won't fix what happened. Think of his family. Have some compassion for their sake.




Jared wasn't someone I pictured that could do this. You keep saying he was horrible but you didn't even know him. So go sit down and shut up




yes, he just said "this is fucking heavy". I was right in front of him. He let me get off the bus before him




Guys, don't hate the shooter for what he did, hate the reasons that drove him to this point. Everyone has their own demons, remember that.




Be thankful for your life, and quit hating on someone who already took their own




SHUT UP stop saying he needs to rot in hell how do you think his family feels for having their dead child be the most hated kid in the state




heart goes out to the Padgett family struggling through this because they TOO lost their child.




yesterday I was scared to use the bathroom at a church. what is happening ?




Not how I pictured high school...




YES THAT FUCKER BETTER ROT IN HELL.




Suffer in hell Jarrod Paget.




After yesterday, I just want to be around my friends because you never know when your time is up.




I'VE BEEN GOING TO SCHOOL WITH THAT MONSTER SINCE LIKE 1ST GRADE!!!!










People need to stop saying that he needs to go to hell.




Guys, don't hate the shooter for what he did, hate the reasons that drove him to this point. Everyone has their own demons, remember that.




Everyone faces their own demons and not everyone is strong enough to beat them. Idk what Jared was thinking, maybe he wasn't but who knows




he was nice like that, he would always let people go before him. I can't believe it's him.




Though their timelines are mostly not about the shooting.





So it's weird.

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mimi
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#2104

Post by mimi »

Was Jared Michael Padgett in the Junior Army Cadet Program at reynolds? If so i knew his twisted assYup fuck that kid i knew him hes a piece of shit fuck that fucker he was a freshmen in the JROTC program when i was in there fuck that kidHe always had this kinda odd thing about him always taking everything so serious and being so precise with everything he didHe would always unzip is his binder all slow and take pieces of paper out so precise and just always be so obsessed with hunting and gunsYea his brother was in the military too and he'd always wear military attire that his brother gave him even on non dress down daysLike i honestly just though he was really into the military because his family had military background and it turns out he was just a nut?

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#2105

Post by mimi »

Video of the Las Vegas shooters' final seconds. Creepy, but not grotesque because it blacks out before the gory stuff begins.Sekrit Stuffs!
From Tolland's link:Initially, authorities believed that Amanda Miller shot and killed her husband before taking her own life. A coroner has determined that Jerad Miller was killed by police gunfire during the firefight inside the Wal-Mart, McMahill saidMcMahill said the “dramatic difference” in explaining how Jerad Miller died stemmed from the Wal-Mart’s surveillance footage, which an officer was monitoring during the shootout. Police screened a brief clip of the footage for reporters, showing the couple in what appears to be the corner of the store, with items piled around them. The footage appears to show Amanda Miller aiming her weapon at her husband and firing, but after reviewing the other forensic evidence, authorities concluded that she did not shoot him. :-? Looked like she did to me.Police also had two other interactions with the Millers this year, McMahill said, both times because they were asked about reported crimes happening near them. In April, the Millers were witnesses to a report of domestic violence. And in May, just weeks before police say the Millers walked into a CiCi’s Pizza and killed two officers, the couple was contacted because an acquaintance of theirs was accused of sexual assault.“We determined there was nothing that stood out that would have indicated to us that these suspects were anti-police or intended any harm to our police officers,” McMahill said of these encounters.[/break1]washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/06/11/police-visited-las-vegas-shooters-earlier-this-year-and-determined-that-they-werent-a-threat/?tid=up_next]http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... id=up_next

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#2106

Post by AnitaMaria »

Sure looks to me like she shot him. At around 16 seconds, you can see her hand recoil after she pulls the trigger and then see his head and hand drop.
Edit: But the police have more than a few seconds of a crappy Walmart surveillance video to work with, so they obviously know way more about what happened than what I can see from that video.

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#2107

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Not to be too graphic about it, but if he took a bullet to the head from that distance, there would be no doubt about it. There is a reason they cut the video just before she shot herself in the head.Bullets in real life don't make little round holes like bullets on tv do.

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#2108

Post by ZekeB »

:yeah:
Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.

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#2109

Post by TollandRCR »

A small group of recent graduates of Reynolds High has started a gofundme site to help pay the funeral expenses of the Padgett family. Amy Evans 2 hours agoPlease join us in trying to show compassion for Jared's family. I cannot imagine what they must be going through. Here is a link to a fundraising campaign for funeral expenses for the Padgett family. Choose kindness.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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#2110

Post by TollandRCR »

The donations for Jared Padgett's funeral have surpassed the goal of $2,000.The donations for the family of the murdered student, Emilio Hoffman, stand at $7,710, with a goal of $8,000. http://www.gofundme.com/funds-for-shot- ... dit]Update: the organizers have increased the goal for Jared Padgett's funeral to a more realistic $4,000 and have raised $2,925. The goal for Emilio Hoffman's family has been raised to $12,000; they have raised $8,390.The American people have donated millions of dollars in cash and in kind for the children and families of Newtown, CT. Included in that giving is the University of Connecticut’s Sandy Hook School Memorial Scholarship Fund, which is already supporting dependents of those killed at Newtown. The hatriots with their garbage about "false flags" are being drowned out by the outpourings of compassion and concern from We the People.[/edit]
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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#2111

Post by kate520 »

:xo
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#2112

Post by RoadScholar »

I don't know what might have helped Padgett, but I do have a suggestion for stopping for incidents like the Millers. As best as I can figure:





Taking away guns is not a solution. You've got the 2nd Amendment, plus the practical challenge of trying to take them away. Not gonna happen.





Everyone being armed is not a solution. It may change the nature of the way the tragedy plays out, but the incident will still occur. And I'm told Law Enforcement is not too keen on showing up to a scene where there's nine people shooting at each other, they don't know which ones are bad guys and which (sort of) good guys. Mayhem. Could arguably produce a worse outcome.





Evaluating potential walking time bombs has just failed again, twice. Cops walked away, saying no cause for alarm. So a weak solution, but worth pursuing. Better background checks, sure. But it's a band-aid.





So here's something that, I insist, could make a difference:





Senior Republicans Making a Nationally Broadcast Statement of Sanity.





John McCain's finest moment in politics may have been that rally where people were frothing at the mouth with hatred for Obama, and a woman told McCain essentially "he's a Muslim terrorist." McCain couldn't stand it any longer, and made a statement of sanity. No ma'am. I disagree with him about nearly everything, but he's a good family man, not a terrorist.





That's what we need now. If enough senior Republicans said something like this, we might have a chance:





"There has been too much hate-stirring and not enough mature disagreement recently in America. People say all sorts of wild things, but the truth is not that one side is out to destroy America and the other out to save her. That is rhetoric, not reality; we all want to make life better for all Americans, and to build a country we can be proud of. We just disagree on how to go about it. That's all it is.





If you've been made angry enough to go out and shoot yourself or someone else, or think you might... take what I'm about to say to heart. Because you may be outraged about things that aren't even happening.





There are no concentration camps being built for Americans.


The DHS is not buying bullets to kill Americans.


FEMA is not buying coffins to put Americans in.


There are no "Chemtrails."


There are no mass mind control projects.


No foreign troops are massing on US soil.


The United Nations is not a threat to the rights and freedoms of Americans.


Nobody's coming around to take people's guns.


"False flag" events virtually never happen.


Millions of illegal votes are not deciding elections.


Gay people are not planning to rape your children and burn your churches.





These and many other wild stories you may hear are not helping us. If someone tells you other citizens are trying to harm you, and calls them the "enemy," they are fanning the flames of tragedy. Too many people have died because they believed such nonsense.





Now, the people who spread these irresponsible ideas have a free-speech right to do so. No one is suggesting they don't. But I'm asking them: please, voluntarily, for the good of your country, before more people are killed: cut it out. If you don't, I will still defend your right to speak. But I hope and pray you will give up that tactic of hyper-partisan story-telling and choose a wiser path.





We need all our strength to tackle real problems. We cannot afford to waste it on fake ones.





America is not teetering on the brink of destruction. When people you don't like get elected, it is not a Constitutional Crisis. No matter which party is in office, your government is not seeking to impoverish and destroy you or your family.





There is no such thing as a "2nd Amendment remedy." That way lies madness. If your government doesn't align with your beliefs, go & work hard to help elect people who share them.





That is all."





OK, it's just a rough draft, and I doubt anything like that will happen. But can't a fella dream?
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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listeme
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#2113

Post by listeme »

Fantastic, RoadScholar.
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#2114

Post by gatsby »

Alex Jones-type followers, who are the ones believing in that nonsense, don't trust Senate Republicans anymore than they do President Obama.

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#2115

Post by AnitaMaria »

Awesome rant, RS. Thanks. --> One thing to keep in mind about gun violence is that, while these stranger-on-stranger mass shootings are the ones that get the headlines, they are not the main cause of gun violence in the US. Gun violence in the US is mostly young men, family members, and current or former intimate partners shooting at each other; combined with accidental shootings and suicides. The same day the Millers killed those police officers, a man shot his wife and three young daughters in Florida in what the county sheriff described as an "everday USA" incident. Five people dead, including three little girls, and hardly anyone paid any attention. (See [link]RawStory,http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/09/f ... s-killing/[/link] on this incident.) Last weekend, there were 30 people shot--and at least 4 killed--in Chicago. [link]Chicago's NBC affiliate,http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/29 ... 92581.html[/link] didn't even care enough to count up the total number of shooting incidents. They just counted up the bodies. These mass shootings in public places happen. They are news. They are awful. But they aren't the main gun violence problem in the United States.

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#2116

Post by kate520 »

Another fine rant, Roads. =D> All of these shooters, the one thing they have in common is access to guns. Guns make everything deadlier, duh. Every other right guaranteed by the Consititution has caveats, regulations or restrictions, Christians have regulations and restrictions on them. Life isn't the full freedom to do as you will, wherever you want and we should stop saying yes to those who insist the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to do anything they will, wherever they want with their precious guns.My right to life and liberty is at least as strong as their gun rights.
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#2117

Post by RoadScholar »

Another fine rant, Roads. =D> All of these shooters, the one thing they have in common is access to guns... My right to life and liberty is at least as strong as their gun rights.I was focusing on pragmatism. Sadly, restricting access to guns would probably have the same sort of success that restricting access to drugs has had. :-k But any time the government decides it's OK to require the same sort of licensing and testing for guns as we do for cars (in no small part because they can be a 'deadly weapon'), that's fine with me.Awesome rant, RS. Thanks. --> One thing to keep in mind about gun violence is that, while these stranger-on-stranger mass shootings are the ones that get the headlines, they are not the main cause of gun violence in the US... The same day the Millers killed those police officers, a man shot his wife and three young daughters in Florida in what the county sheriff described as an "everday USA" incident. Five people dead, including three little girls, and hardly anyone paid any attention.I read about it. And you're entirely correct. I guess the electrifying horror of shootings like in Las Vegas is that at least with the other gun violence, it's "in context." Shooting a rival dealer or cheating husband, robbing a store, that sort of thing. The people involved at least have a chance of predicting, de-fusing, and, if it comes to it, repulsing the violence.When a cop... somebody's dad, everyone's neighbor... is standing at a soda machine and some wacko lady shoots him in the head because he is part of the 'oppressor's system'... I dunno. That really gets me. Hence the rant. Cops and bystanders murdered for what in the end turns out to be based on hate-mongering conspiracy theories? It just really gets my motor running.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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#2118

Post by Skip Intro »

Sales of Bulletproof Blankets Beat Maker’s ‘Wildest Expectations’http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/ ... 570.jpgThe alarming rate of school shootings across the country appears to have added an unsettling new item to parents’ list of “back to school” items: bulletproof armor for their children. Among such items, the Bodyguard Blanket, a portable, bulletproof covering for children, has seen its sales exceed its manufacturer’s expectations in less than two weeks on the market.Stan Schone, managing partner at manufacturer ProTecht, told The Huffington Post that consumer response to the product has “far exceeded our wildest expectations” in the 10 days that the blanket has been available for purchase.[/break1]huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/12/bulletproof-blankets-body_n_5479885.html]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/1 ... 79885.html
In the Trump era anything is true if enough people believe it.

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#2119

Post by mimi »

Some stuff about Oregon shooter, Jared Padgett:Padgett was known by his classmates as a quiet student with a need for order and a fascination with guns.I've read that a lot. My father was like that too, though. I didn't inherit that gene. :-? Jared was a deacon in the Mormon Church. I woulda thought he'd be too young to be a deacon?Milliron said he's known Jared's father, Michael, for more than 25 years. He said the Padgetts are a good family that "has had its ups and downs over the years," but that Michael Padgett is a "hard-working man." He said Jared's parents, Michael and Kristina, broke up four or five years ago.I read elsewhere that a classmate said Jared felt his mother left him and didn't care about him. His dad got custody of him.Jared Padgett's brother-in-law, Andrew Cooper, posted a note about ending school violence on his Facebook page on Dec. 14, 2012:"Dear President Obama, here, I'll help you out to create jobs a little, oh and more importantly- SAVE LIVES; advise the states to employ at least 2 specially trained police officers to constantly patrol all school campuses from kindergarden through all colleges. Duh."I wonder what Cooper thinks today? I'd read earlier that the guns were secured, but that Jared was able to get to them somehow anyway. Garcia said Padgett liked guns. One time he offered to sell Padgett an air gun but Padgett's father said no.His sister posted on facebook cuz after the shooting, and before the name was released, she hadn't heard from him:"Praying for everyone at Reynolds! My little brother is still there and I'm freakin out! I hate being states away. So stressful," she wrote, with an unhappy face emoticon halfway through the post.In the comments she went on to say at 10:10 a.m. that "no one has heard from him so far." The first 9-1-1 calls came in around 8 a.m. Tuesday morning.At 10:16 a.m., [Chelsea] Cooper added, "They keep saying the shooter is dead but I wanna know who it is!!! I'm so stressed right now."There's one story in the piece about how he got upset when giving a presentation at school on a book about Hitler and The Holocaust. I don't really understand what the disagreement was. :-? It isn't clear to me what he was arguing. I can't tell? Idunno if he was actually defending Hitler? If that was true, I doubt the kids would all be saying he was just a normal kid? Anyway, the kids were disagreeing with him and he got upset. He sounds like maybe he was wound a little tight?And it seems like he was just totally obsessed with guns. Kids said he knew everything about them. All the details. All the different makes and models.His facebook included likes for rifle and knife companies as well as 'Conservative American Military Veterans Against Barack Obama' and 'We WILL NOT Be Disarmed.'All these things seem to be weird for a kid in this school. Yet the kids all just say he was normal, but quiet, and liked things orderly. :-? There must be more to the story.Anyway, there's more in this piece:[/break1]oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2014/06/oregon_school_shooting_gunman.html]http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index ... unman.html

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#2120

Post by Volkonski »

Just a typical day-HARRIS COUNTY, Texas -- Deputies said a 3-year-old boy was injured after he found a gun in his family’s Humble-area home late Wednesday.Deputies with the Harris County Sheriff’s Office were called to Fawn Park near Storm Cove View around 10:15 p.m.The boy reportedly shot himself in the foot; paramedics took him to the hospital in stable condition.The sheriff's office later said the child found the gun on his dad's nightstand. The dad is now facing charges of making a firearm accessible to a child.[/break1]khou.com/news/editors-pick/Deputies-Toddler-shoots-self-in-foot-after-finding-gun-in-Humble-area-home-262848741.html?google_editors_picks=true]http://www.khou.com/news/editors-pick/D ... picks=trueHOUSTON -- A night of fun nearly turned deadly for three teenagers in northeast Harris County early Thursday morning.They were recording a rap song and working on a music video when deputies said the trio started messing with a loaded gun.Snip-------The young friends, who all attend North Shore High School, had high hopes for a song they were recording in a makeshift studio.One of the young men, 18, pulled out the gun to be used as a prop in the music video, detectives said. One of the other teens, 17, took the gun and accidentally shot the 18-year-old in the stomach.[/break1]khou.com/news/editors-pick/Teen-wounded-when-gun-being-used-as-music-video-prop-goes-off-262849501.html?google_editors_picks=true]http://www.khou.com/news/editors-pick/T ... picks=trueThe gunfire erupted about 9:50 a.m. at 8939 Long Point near Spring Branch Drive, according to the Houston Police Department.Police said officers were dispatched to the scene after a person called 911 to report a man had been shot during a robbery of his business. When officers arrived they discovered the suspect had fled in a waiting car.The victim was rushed to Ben Taub General Hospital where he died.Police had not released the name of the victim, however those on-scene who say they were his friends were distraught at the news of the deadly shooting.[/break1]chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Man-killed-in-NW-Houston-shooting-5544741.php]http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 544741.php
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
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#2121

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Another fine rant, Roads. =D> All of these shooters, the one thing they have in common is access to guns. Guns make everything deadlier, duh. Every other right guaranteed by the Consititution has caveats, regulations or restrictions, Christians have regulations and restrictions on them. Life isn't the full freedom to do as you will, wherever you want and we should stop saying yes to those who insist the 2nd Amendment gives them the right to do anything they will, wherever they want with their precious guns.[highlight]My right to life and liberty is at least as strong as their gun rights.[/highlight]Your right to life and liberty (and not to live in fear of being a random victim) SHOULD BE at least as strong as their gun rights. But it isn't, is it? The statistics are horrifying. In round numbers, in the US, 30,000 people die each year from firearms. 11,000 of these deaths are homicides, 19,000 are suicides. There are about 4,000 other non-gun homicides.So, on a typical day one could expect 52 people to commit suicide with a gun, 30 to be killed intentionally with a gun, and 11 to be killed intentionally in another way. That's pretty horrible, even allowing for the US being a large country.The suicide rate has a particular sad poignancy. Many people in non-gun-worshipping countries try to commit suicide, but fail, perhaps because they don't take enough pills, or they fail to slash their wrists fully, or they take to long setting up a rope and chair, or they survive a jump, etc. Whatever happens, they have a reasonable chance of reconsidering their sad decision. But guns make suicide so easy, just a moment to stroke the trigger, not even a big action, and that's it. So a short bout of severe misery at a vulnerable time, one hasty action, a life lost forever, a family broken.There are so many victims: those who are shot, those who shoot themselves, the families and friends of those who are shot, and the family and friends of people who commit horrible shooting crimes, those who are traumatized by events they experience or witness. The availability of guns spreads unhappiness around much wider than the owners.I have never understood why anybody who wants to possess an assault rifle should be considered sane. They're expensive and dangerous to everybody, the owner and others. And what can the proud owner do with it? Assuming he isn't going to deliberately shoot other people, all he can do is fire a bucket of expensive ammunition at a target. That's just childish, which we see in infantile folk like Mark Kessler. Better to get an old oil drum and bang it with a stick, because that will make a satisfying noise much more cheaply and safely.

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#2122

Post by Patagoniagirl »

In a bid to post the least popular note of the week, I would like to suggest that there are victims that we do not usually count in these shootings: the shooters themselves. Elliot Rodger was apparently receiving a load of psychiatric and psychological treatment. It did not work. We don't know about Jared Michael Padgett yet. Both lives were also lost. These kids were not trash to be discarded or animals to be put down. They were in need of help. Effective help. Greg Zanis carved crosses for Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. They were taken down. Whose perspective was the more humane, Zanis or those who protested his work? Whichb perspective is more likely to set us on a pathway to ending these slaughters?This was my favorite post in a long time. It mirrors my inner thoughts on the lost lives of mere children who are so deep in whatever mental anguish or illness they may have to do what they did. After Columbine, I had a heart thinking about the parents of the shooters. How do you grieve in shame? I have thought this time, after time, after each horrific mass shooting. Of course, the parents and families of the victims are horrifically tormented by their loss. But, there are the families of the shooters who are left to silence. I was amazed to see the response of outreach by the Oregon high school kids. A great majority anyway. And I thank Tollie for pointing this out.

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#2123

Post by TollandRCR »

If St. Ronnie were to materialize before the U.S. House of Representatives and deliver any or all of Road Scholar's fine rants, he would at best be shouted down. The nuts who block gun control legislation of even the mildest sort would not be moved. Some moderates would be stimulated to think and maybe even to rethink their unwillingness to disobey the NRA. That would not be enough.It seems that greater and greater tragedies only harden opposition to gun control. Over 50 years the polls have not shown that Americans respond to massacres in rational ways; for the most part, opposition to gun control remains steady or rises. A common explanation is that massacres could be avoided were the population better armed. If there is a solution, it may be at the local level. Connecticut is trying to achieve a greater degree of gun control than we had at the time of the Sandy Hook massacre. Our opponents may not just be the NRA and its ilk; they may also be the courts. In 1876 the Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment did not create a right; the Court held that the right to bear arms existed before the Constitution. The Second Amendment only limited what Congress may do.With this kind of judicial thinking, it is hard to be optimistic about the future of Connecticut's new gun control laws.
“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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#2124

Post by Dolly »

Phoenix priest killed, another wounded in attack..............Father Kenneth Walker, 28, was shot and killed and Father Joseph Terra was wounded at a Catholic church Wednesday night near the state Capitol, a Phoenix police spokesman said.Police were responding to a burglary call shortly after 9 p.m. near 16th Avenue and Monroe Street at the Mater Misericordiae (Mother of Mercy) Mission, Sgt. Steve Martos said........Police said Terra, 56, was "physically harmed" but not stabbed or shot. [/break1]azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/06/12/two-priests-stabbed-phoenix/10359901/]http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/loc ... /10359901/[/break1]azfamily.com/news/Two-priests-shot-at-Valley-church-262822511.html]http://www.azfamily.com/news/Two-priest ... 22511.html
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SLQ
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Another Shooting

#2125

Post by SLQ »

Some stuff about Oregon shooter, Jared Padgett:Jared was a deacon in the Mormon Church. I woulda thought he'd be too young to be a deacon?The Mormon church has an interesting structure that is different from any other church. There are no pastors -- services are led by lay people. Young boys "join the priesthood" at the age of 12, and "deacon" is the first "rank." Deacons essentially serve as alter boys, serving the sacrament. [/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon_(Mormonism]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacon_(Mormonism) (sorry, but it's pretty accurate -- it's not like the Mormon church has a guide for outsiders).
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