Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

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Mikedunford
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Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#1

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:11 am

India claims to have also shot down a Pakistani fighter.

This is - or at least should be - the biggest story in the world right now. That's not hyperbole. The two countries have fought four wars (or three and a 'limited conflict' depending on who you ask) in the last seventy years, mostly over Kashmir. They both have large militaries, concentrated force in the disputed area, and haven't always had a history of having the most secure civilian control of their militaries. And they both have nukes.

The disputed area also borders China, which has not always had the friendliest relations with either state, will be eager to keep a conflict from spilling over into its territory, and also has nukes.

Meanwhile, the US and UK, which have both occasionally had some influence during times of past tensions, are both massively distracted.

What could possibly go wrong?

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-47383889


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RVInit
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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#2

Post by RVInit » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:11 am

Agree 100% here. This is serious. And it's seriously disturbing that our current president is instead obsessed with his former fixer (ignoring, for the moment, the horror that we actually have a president that employed a "fixer"), and is currently on a dog and pony dictator and dictator wannabe love fest on the world stage.

Well, just think...we will probably hear all about "nobody ever knew there WAS such a place called Kashmir" if someone does manage to convince him this is something that warrants some attention. Followed by "we will just nuke them all" because my goodness, it must be just that simple to solve this kind of problem, right? Easy peasy.

Ay. :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#3

Post by Dave at Sea » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:12 am

This?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/ ... s/10853290

Pakistan's Prime Minister Imran Khan will stage an emergency parliamentary session and meet with the body in control of Islamabad's nuclear arsenal in response to India's first air strikes on Pakistan since 1971.



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#4

Post by Dave at Sea » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:14 am

Here is another source:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/ ... r/10854976

Pakistan's air force has shot down two Indian warplanes, capturing one Indian pilot, after they crossed the boundary between the two nuclear-armed rivals in the disputed territory of Kashmir, a military spokesman said.



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#5

Post by Dave at Sea » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:16 am

RVInit wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:11 am
Agree 100% here. This is serious. And it's seriously disturbing that our current president is instead obsessed with his former fixer (ignoring, for the moment, the horror that we actually have a president that employed a "fixer"), and is currently on a dog and pony dictator and dictator wannabe love fest on the world stage.

Well, just think...we will probably hear all about "nobody ever knew there WAS such a place called Kashmir" if someone does manage to convince him this is something that warrants some attention. Followed by "we will just nuke them all" because my goodness, it must be just that simple to solve this kind of problem, right? Easy peasy.

Ay. :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:
It may be best for the world if Donnie wasn't involved..

:radioactive:



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neeneko
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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#6

Post by neeneko » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:20 am

Well, that is a terrifying bit of news to wake up to.



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#7

Post by Dave at Sea » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:27 am

neeneko wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:20 am
Well, that is a terrifying bit of news to wake up to.
I've had a few hours of thinking about it - hopefully won't escalate that far.



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#8

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 am

Dave at Sea wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:12 am
This?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-27/ ... s/10853290

Pakistan's Prime Minister Imran Khan will stage an emergency parliamentary session and meet with the body in control of Islamabad's nuclear arsenal in response to India's first air strikes on Pakistan since 1971.
I believe the Indian strike into Pakistan preceded the shootdown. Not sure if the shootdown was part of the same incident.


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#9

Post by Suranis » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:50 am

I have absolutely no knowledge to back this up, but I imagine border crossings like this would be a fairly regular occurance. its testing the others resolve, letting the other side know you are strong and determined, checking the response time of the enemy, getting intel on the other. It just makes sense from the standpoint of 2 unfriendly powers staring at one another. I would imagine that both sides would withdraw once challenged, that would be the rules of the game, if I am right.

The significant thing is that live rounds were deployed this time. Either the Indians went hot, missed and the Pakistani response didn't, or the Pakis didn't miss when going hot. Either way, someone decded it was time to get things nice and warm, so someone is ready to get busy.


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#10

Post by neeneko » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:11 am

Dave at Sea wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:27 am
I've had a few hours of thinking about it - hopefully won't escalate that far.
I suspect you are correct. Downed planes with surviving pilots does not seem to be one of those tipping points that cause things to escalate.



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#11

Post by MN-Skeptic » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:50 am

I’m sure Trump will be glad to send Kuschner to the area to negotiate a peace deal right after he completes his peace deals in the Middle East.


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#12

Post by fierceredpanda » Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:52 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:35 am
I believe the Indian strike into Pakistan preceded the shootdown. Not sure if the shootdown was part of the same incident.
The Indians launched an attack into Pakistan in retaliation for a terrorist attack that killed a whole bunch of Indian soldiers a couple days ago.


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#13

Post by Mr Brolin » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:12 am

For ones many, multiple and manifest sins, one has spent rather more time in the region as well as several uncomfortable occasions in the LOC (Line Of Control) area than any seemingly/purportedly rational individual should.

This is a very volatile and unpleasant, albeit gorgeous looking, area and has all of the charm and bonhomie of the other local area of unpleasantness, what used to be called the North West Frontier Province now called Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

The locals habits of multi generational vendetta, murder, mutilation and human harrying as sport is as prevalent and endemic as during the days of the Raj and Kipling poem ending in

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.


is as apropos now as then.

As example, over the last 10'sh years at least 20 soldiers of both sides during various "actions" have, sometimes post mortem, been mutilated and decapitated with the heads taken across the border as, in effect, trophies.

There is little to zero likelihood of any generally agreeable settlement however and yet bizarrely, the whole volatility and comparatively lightweight military actions appear to act as a sanguine pressure release mechanism between India and Pakistan allowing for great protestations of national/martial prowess with a (relatively) low human cost.

The activity is almost akin to the Aztec "flower wars" of semi ritualised, up close and personal combat with gratuitous blood letting between comparatively small numbers of combatants to exhibit a nations strength, pander to a nationalistic mind set, act as a societal stress release and preserve a ruling elites power hold

So, as long as any military actions don't escalate past the sort of numbers of troops deployed during the Kargil conflict of 1999 (circa 35,000 total), then this will remain a nasty little regional conflict with a number of atrocities on both sides that will end up with little if any visible movement of the borders.

If the numbers in play escalate past this then, if I was a local resident, I would be looking for some SPF 1,000,000 ……..



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#14

Post by tek » Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:12 am

Sure would be nice to have a functioning US State Dept to help tamp this down...


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#15

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:58 am

tek wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:12 am
Sure would be nice to have a functioning US State Dept to help tamp this down...
Sure would be nice to have a political minded potus and not a loud mouthed spouting twittering dotus who threatens Pakistan of taking the US money and not doing anything to help the US. Such critic is to be done with cocktail smalltalks and not in the ublic if one intends to keep some kind of influence. Now the Pakistanis will just say F*Y*.



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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#16

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:32 pm

Pakistan closed its airspace - both for arriving/departing traffic and overflights - shortly after the incident; the airspace remains closed at this time. This is causing substantial disruptions - including one Air Canada flight to Delhi, which turned back over Norway resulting in a 14-hour flight from Toronto to Toronto. Thai Airlines has cancelled all its flights to Europe due to routing difficulties; several other airlines have had to make refueling stops.


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Re: Pakistan shoots down two Indian fighter jets over Kashmir

#17

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:44 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:32 pm
Pakistan closed its airspace - both for arriving/departing traffic and overflights - shortly after the incident; the airspace remains closed at this time. This is causing substantial disruptions - including one Air Canada flight to Delhi, which turned back over Norway resulting in a 14-hour flight from Toronto to Toronto. Thai Airlines has cancelled all its flights to Europe due to routing difficulties; several other airlines have had to make refueling stops.
Will be a major headache for airline flight managers. Traditional routes from Europe to South East Asia and back go over the Black Sea and Kaspian Sea, or Turkey into Iran, then on into Afghanistan, Pakistan to India and further. Leaving Europe in the evening and South East Asia late night makes a meeting point over India for the flight pairs. Now how to get around Pakistan? From SEA there are flight routes thru India then thru Chinese airspace up north into Russia with a detour as far north as Moscow. Adds something like an extra hour+ to the flight. South detours are over the Persian Gulf, essentially Saudi Arabia.



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