Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

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Mikedunford
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#51

Post by Mikedunford »

GreatGrey wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:28 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:55 pm
I think I would have been good with Trump commuting the sentence - the mandatory minimum felt excessive, and I think I said as much pre-standoff. But the pardon is a slap in the face - a lot of faces, in fact.
He’s giving carte blanche to right wing militias.

What’s next, a pardon for FlatCap?
Yes, he is. And that's bad.
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Fortinbras
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#52

Post by Fortinbras »

Back when the states were ratifying the original Constitution, in the Virginia state convention the question was raised about the pardoning power -- What if the President gives out pardons to criminals he is associated with?

And the answer, from James Madison and others, was that granting pardons to crooks associated with himself would be grounds for impeaching the President.

I'm just saying ......

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Gregg
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#53

Post by Gregg »

p0rtia wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:58 pm
He has no tactics other than to do 1) what he thinks will make him look good or get him power/money in the moment, or 2) what might make him look good or get him power/money in the future. Lies and contradictions are as nothing.

He does not understand a single issue or what it means to take a position or even to think ahead. Information comes into his festering brain, and he can parrot the bits that he likes when they support 1) or 2), but there is no actual wisdom present. There is only, "How can I use this?" based on "Does this effect me in a good way or a bad way?" Case after case. Nothing else.

No, I think this might be deeper than that. He didn't choose the lunatic fringe's first candidate for SCOTUS, because there was this other one who thinks he enjoys the Divine Right of Kings, and to the President that's more important than Roe v. Wade right now. So he picks the justice who thinks its unconstitutional to make frowny faces at POTUS, but then he lets the Free Range Anarchist out the next day, "Hey LOOK!! Shiney!"

Presto Bada bing, the Base it happy, to them the Left is going nuts and that's a sign of a job well done.
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ObjectiveDoubter
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#54

Post by ObjectiveDoubter »

fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:06 pm
ObjectiveDoubter wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:04 pm
It's definitely not all black and white here.

My longtime friends who live on a horse farm outside Portland in a rural ranching community, thought the sentencing of the Hammonds was more than heavy-handed and that the stance of the federal government in the prosecution was over-reaching and vindictive. Both are are highly educated, life-long liberal activists.

They will be happy about the pardon but find it, as we all do, unfortunate that the pardoning of the Hammonds will not only serve to feed the vile Trump base but to encourage the Bundys of this world to act out more.
Your friends are confusing a pardon with commutation of sentence. I agree that the sentencing of the Hammons did appear overly harsh and vindictive. (Hey, I am a defense lawyer, after all.) But they both pleaded guilty. The remedy here is a commutation of their remaining sentences while letting the convictions stand.
Agreed 100 percent. Even more, maybe 1000 percent. I am soooo not a lawyer, and this explanation so helps. And it underscores what undemocratic motives drive the Narcissistic, needy Trump. All the more despicable. All for the base. What a scum.

But I do think that demonizing the Hammonds doesn't serve us well. They may not be folks we'd want to call friends, but they are hardly the most evil amongst us.

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Dan1100
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#55

Post by Dan1100 »

ObjectiveDoubter wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm
fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:06 pm
ObjectiveDoubter wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:04 pm
It's definitely not all black and white here.

My longtime friends who live on a horse farm outside Portland in a rural ranching community, thought the sentencing of the Hammonds was more than heavy-handed and that the stance of the federal government in the prosecution was over-reaching and vindictive. Both are are highly educated, life-long liberal activists.

They will be happy about the pardon but find it, as we all do, unfortunate that the pardoning of the Hammonds will not only serve to feed the vile Trump base but to encourage the Bundys of this world to act out more.
Your friends are confusing a pardon with commutation of sentence. I agree that the sentencing of the Hammons did appear overly harsh and vindictive. (Hey, I am a defense lawyer, after all.) But they both pleaded guilty. The remedy here is a commutation of their remaining sentences while letting the convictions stand.
Agreed 100 percent. Even more, maybe 1000 percent. I am soooo not a lawyer, and this explanation so helps. And it underscores what undemocratic motives drive the Narcissistic, needy Trump. All the more despicable. All for the base. What a scum.

But I do think that demonizing the Hammonds doesn't serve us well. They may not be folks we'd want to call friends, but they are hardly the most evil amongst us.
They may not be the most evil, but they are serial arsonists who totally disregard the safety of the firefighters who protect them and their neighbors. In my book, that is pretty f'ing evil. Certainly more evil than a lot of folks who have to serve a lot more than 5 years.

:torches: :cussing: :smokeears:

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Kendra
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#56

Post by Kendra »

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#57

Post by RVInit »

ObjectiveDoubter wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm
fierceredpanda wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:06 pm
ObjectiveDoubter wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:04 pm
It's definitely not all black and white here.

My longtime friends who live on a horse farm outside Portland in a rural ranching community, thought the sentencing of the Hammonds was more than heavy-handed and that the stance of the federal government in the prosecution was over-reaching and vindictive. Both are are highly educated, life-long liberal activists.

They will be happy about the pardon but find it, as we all do, unfortunate that the pardoning of the Hammonds will not only serve to feed the vile Trump base but to encourage the Bundys of this world to act out more.
Your friends are confusing a pardon with commutation of sentence. I agree that the sentencing of the Hammons did appear overly harsh and vindictive. (Hey, I am a defense lawyer, after all.) But they both pleaded guilty. The remedy here is a commutation of their remaining sentences while letting the convictions stand.
Agreed 100 percent. Even more, maybe 1000 percent. I am soooo not a lawyer, and this explanation so helps. And it underscores what undemocratic motives drive the Narcissistic, needy Trump. All the more despicable. All for the base. What a scum.

But I do think that demonizing the Hammonds doesn't serve us well. They may not be folks we'd want to call friends, but they are hardly the most evil amongst us.
Dwight Hammond left a message on the answering machine of a previous manager of the refuge. It was a message that he was going to wrap their six year old in barbed wire and throw him into a well. That may not be the most evil ever, but it's pretty damn evil.
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#58

Post by Bill_G »

This topic is blowing up on OLive as well. It's about four hours old, and on the cusp of 1000 comments. Oneupmanship and whataboutisms prevail.

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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#59

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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#60

Post by TollandRCR »

CNN presented the Hammond’s case as a land dispute. There was that element, but the core offenses were arson. Big difference. They endangered people's lived and property. I wonder whether Rep. Walden told Trump that.
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#61

Post by AndyinPA »

twitler's sending a message to the right-wing anarchists. I'm with you, so you'll be with me when I need you.
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#62

Post by vic »

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:25 pm
:snippity:
They may not be the most evil, but they are serial arsonists who totally disregard the safety of the firefighters who protect them and their neighbors. In my book, that is pretty f'ing evil. Certainly more evil than a lot of folks who have to serve a lot more than 5 years.

:torches: :cussing: :smokeears:
:yeah:

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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#63

Post by pipistrelle »

TheNewSaint wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:29 pm
This is the other side of Trump's war on brown people. While we're deporting lifelong Americans who've done little or nothing wrong, thoroughly nasty white people like the Hammonds get leniency.
A couple people on Walker's page were saying that the Hammonds are decent/good people.

Someone posted a 600+ page document showing clearly they are terrible human beings. Terrible. Awful.

So thoroughly nasty works.

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Dan1100
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#64

Post by Dan1100 »

Well, we sentence people to prison for what they are convicted of, not for whether they are horrible people or not.

That being said, 5 years was lenient for what the Hammonds pled (pleaded :cantlook: ) guilty to.

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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#65

Post by pipistrelle »

ObjectiveDoubter wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:19 pm
But I do think that demonizing the Hammonds doesn't serve us well. They may not be folks we'd want to call friends, but they are hardly the most evil amongst us.
I have no problems demonizing the Hammonds. They are vile, which is a few steps down from "someone I wouldn't want to call a friend."

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pipistrelle
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#66

Post by pipistrelle »

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:06 pm
Well, we sentence people to prison for what they are convicted of, not for whether they are horrible people or not.

That being said, 5 years was lenient for what the Hammonds pled (pleaded :cantlook: ) guilty to.
"Nice" people don't have a lengthy history of arson, some charges of which they pleaded guilty to.

I think karma's going to come 'round hard on the Bundy cult. Of course, their history of drug and alcohol abuse, infidelity, divorce, accidents, etc., is part of it. They appear to be miserable people leading deliberately miserable lives.

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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#67

Post by scirreeve »

Sorry for the big idiot head.


stoppingby
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#68

Post by stoppingby »

Does anyone think Drumpf did this to distract from Pompeo's disastrous attempt at talks with North Korea?

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Mikedunford
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#69

Post by Mikedunford »

stoppingby wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:21 pm
Does anyone think Drumpf did this to distract from Pompeo's disastrous attempt at talks with North Korea?
No, I don't think the thinking is that sophisticated.
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#70

Post by TollandRCR »

stoppingby wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:21 pm
Does anyone think Drumpf did this to distract from Pompeo's disastrous attempt at talks with North Korea?
It sounds as if Pompeo were acting responsibly. Trump’s fantasy cannot last
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#71

Post by bob »

stoppingby wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:21 pm
Does anyone think Drumpf did this to distract from Pompeo's disastrous attempt at talks with North Korea?
Distract the base from the nominee not being Barrett.
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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#72

Post by Sam the Centipede »

The appropriate response (in the karma sense) would be for someone to go to the Hammonds' ranch and torch the place so that scummy family can feel what it's like to be on the receiving end of murderous arson.

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Dan1100
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#73

Post by Dan1100 »

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:59 pm
The appropriate response (in the karma sense) would be for someone to go to the Hammonds' ranch and torch the place so that scummy family can feel what it's like to be on the receiving end of murderous arson.
Or perhaps when they need the fire department or BLM/Forest Service firefighters they should tell them they are on their own.

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RVInit
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#74

Post by RVInit »

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:09 pm
Sam the Centipede wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:59 pm
The appropriate response (in the karma sense) would be for someone to go to the Hammonds' ranch and torch the place so that scummy family can feel what it's like to be on the receiving end of murderous arson.
Or perhaps when they need the fire department or BLM/Forest Service firefighters they should tell them they are on their own.
All of the above would be OK by me.
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Re: Trump PARDONS THE HAMMONDS

#75

Post by pipistrelle »

scirreeve wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:12 pm
Sorry for the big idiot head.
Sekrit Stuffs!
Maybe someone should be reminded about Ryan’s plan for a ranch.

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