2013 Governor: Virginia

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mimi
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#251

Post by mimi » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:38 pm

Regarding the fairfax provisional ballots:WASHINGTON - A last-minute change means Fairfax County voters who cast provisional ballots may face troubles getting them counted.The state Electoral Board decided Friday to change the rules that had been followed in Fairfax County and ban legal representatives from stepping in to help get the ballot counted, unless the voter him or herself is there.County Electoral Board Secretary Brian Shoeneman says he and board chairman Seth Stark disagree with the ruling, but they have to comply. The board is voting on provisional ballots later Saturday.more:[/break1]wtop.com/41/3501230/Provisional-ballot-voters-in-Va-face-new-obstacle]http://www.wtop.com/41/3501230/Provisio ... w-obstacleWhat good is a provisional ballot then?

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listeme
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#252

Post by listeme » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:45 pm

I have been trying to follow what this means. I don't think it can mean that each provisional voter must show up in person at the counting.But what DOES it mean?
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listeme
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#253

Post by listeme » Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:46 pm

Also they said they're not counting until Tuesday now because of whatever this ruling means.
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#254

Post by June bug » Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:41 am

I have been trying to follow what this means. I don't think it can mean that each provisional voter must show up in person at the counting.But what DOES it mean?I find news reports on this very confusing, especially since it's appearing in conjunction with the "missing" absentee ballots story. Are they saying that a "legal representative" for a voter cannot come by themselves to validate a provisional ballot, that each provisional voter must show up in person at the Registrar's Office before (or by) Tuesday in order for their vote to be counted?

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#255

Post by Emma » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:37 am

Provisional Ballot Process for Voters Who Arrive Without IdentificationA voter who arrives at the polling place without an acceptable form of identification will be given the opportunity to vote a provisional ballot. After completing the provisional ballot, the individual voting will be given written instructions from the election officials on how to submit a copy of his/her identification so that his/her vote can be counted.A voter will have until noon on the Friday following the election to deliver a copy of the identification to the local electoral board. Voters may submit a copy of their ID via fax, email, in-person submission, or through USPS or commercial delivery service. Please note that the copy of the ID must be delivered to the electoral board by noon on Friday, or the provisional ballot cannot be counted. A Friday postmark will not be sufficient if the copy of the ID is not delivered to the electoral board by noon on Friday.The written notice given to the voter will provide the necessary information, including email, fax, and address of where the ID should be delivered.[/break1]sbe.virginia.gov/votinginperson.html]http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/votinginperson.html

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listeme
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#256

Post by listeme » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:41 am

From what I understand, those ones -- the ones that faxed their ID copies etc -- are not likely to be challenged?I'm not sure which categories are likely to be challenged. Lots of breathless misinformation out there, which doesn't really help, of course.
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#257

Post by Emma » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:41 am

Provisional Ballots:





A Provisional Ballot is a paper or optical scan ballot which is cast separately and sealed in a green envelope. An officer of election will assist the voter in completing the information on both sides of the envelope. The voter must provide the information requested and sign the Statement of Voter.





Provisional Ballots are not counted on Election Day. Your local Electoral Board will meet the day after the election to determine whether each provisional voter was qualified to vote. The votes of qualified voters will then be counted and included in the results for your locality.





Provisional voters are allowed to be present when the Electoral Board meets to determine if their vote was valid, and can ask for a one day extension to gather evidence. The election officials will tell each provisional voter when and where the Electoral Board will meet, and provide a phone number to call to find out if their Provisional Ballot was counted.





Provisional Ballots are used:





When the voter’s name is not on the pollbook, the voter believes he is registered in that precinct, and the registrar’s office cannot be contacted to verify that the voter is registered.





Note: If a voter chooses to vote a Provisional Ballot because they are at the wrong polling place and are unable or unwilling to go to the correct polling place, their vote will not be counted.





When a voter who registered by mail on or after January 1, 2003, and did not mail in a copy of their ID at that time, fails to show one of the federally required forms of ID when voting for the first time in a federal election.





When a voter who was sent an absentee ballot has not received or has lost the ballot, and appears at his regular polling place on election day.





When the normal voting hours are extended by court order.





[/break1]sbe.virginia.gov/cms/voter_information/voter_rights_responsibilities.html]http://www.sbe.virginia.gov/cms/voter_i ... ities.html

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mimi
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#258

Post by mimi » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:30 am

MoJo posts on that provisional ballot issue:





Virginia Republicans Change Vote-Counting Rules While Counting Votes





—By Patrick Caldwell


| Mon Nov. 11, 2013 7:52 AM PST





[/break1]motherjones.com/mojo/2013/11/virginia-voter-id-attorney-general-obenshain-herring]http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/11 ... in-herring





Also at the Election Law blog:





In Razor-Thin VA AG’s Race, Republican Dominated Elections Board, at Direction of AG Cuccinelli, Changes Rules for Counting Provisional Ballots


Posted on November 10, 2013 12:39 pm by Rick Hasen





[/break1]org/?p=56609]http://electionlawblog.org/?p=56609





So if I understand correctly, Virginia has a new voter ID law. Those who didn't have correct identification had to cast provisional ballot.





In years past, a lawyer would advocate for the counting of the ballots. But Cuccinelli changed the rule. Not only did he change the rule, but he changed it after other counties had already counted. He changed it when they got to Fairfax & Arlington counties. Democratic counties.

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#259

Post by Tarrant » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:34 am

How is that legal? Isn't that a 14th Amendment issue, if some counties used one standard, and others are directed to use another?I thought that was one of the tortured reasonings given in the (non-precedent, heh) Bush vs Gore.

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#260

Post by Welsh Dragon » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:47 am

Just to keep everyone up to speed - Obenshain is currently leading by 17 (!) votes. It's going to a while before this is settled. A recount is inevitable and I will be surprised if there aren't legal challenges too.

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#261

Post by kate520 » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:11 pm

The guy at the Outrage Store won't even sell me meters anymore. Even the one with a lifetime warrantee.This won't be allowed to stand, but in the meantime...what? More chaos in Virginia caused by children who can't accept the world as it is.
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#262

Post by Reality Check » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:46 pm

Dave Wasserman's Twitter feed says that a precinct in Richmond, VA found one machine tape had not been counted. When these were added to the total Herring (D) is now ahead by 115 votes.
"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

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#263

Post by Welsh Dragon » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:22 am

According to Virginia Board of Elections - Mark Herring now leads by 117 votes.

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#264

Post by listeme » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:33 am

My impression at this point is that there really isn't any funny business going on. Lawyers for both sides are doing their best to squeeze every vote available out of the machines, as they should. But watchers on both sides are saying it's being done well, honestly, transparently.Several of the leftwing local people are not pleased with MSNBC's slant on things last night, for instance.
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#265

Post by Welsh Dragon » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:47 pm

My impression at this point is that there really isn't any funny business going on. Lawyers for both sides are doing their best to squeeze every vote available out of the machines, as they should. But watchers on both sides are saying it's being done well, honestly, transparently.Several of the leftwing local people are not pleased with MSNBC's slant on things last night, for instance.I concur, with the possible exception of the change in rules on provisional ballots. If it does indeed mean that Fairfax and Arlington are being counted on a more restrictive basis than counties who counted provisional ballots before the rule change than that is fishy and should not stand. However, missed tapes, math errors etc - I'm more inclined to believe human error rather than conspiracy.

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#266

Post by mimi » Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:06 pm

My impression at this point is that there really isn't any funny business going on. Lawyers for both sides are doing their best to squeeze every vote available out of the machines, as they should. But watchers on both sides are saying it's being done well, honestly, transparently.Several of the leftwing local people are not pleased with MSNBC's slant on things last night, for instance.I concur, with the possible exception of the change in rules on provisional ballots. If it does indeed mean that Fairfax and Arlington are being counted on a more restrictive basis than counties who counted provisional ballots before the rule change than that is fishy and should not stand. However, missed tapes, math errors etc - I'm more inclined to believe human error rather than conspiracy.I did see that segment on Maddow. She did kinda mock the one guy b/c when a question arose about why there so few votes in that area, this tweet was sent:Brian W. Schoeneman ‏@BrianSchoeneman 6 NovTo respond to rumors going around, there are zero - 0 - ZERO uncounted absentee ballots in Fairfax County. We completed our count last night[/break1]com/BrianSchoeneman/status/398216525418885120]https://twitter.com/BrianSchoeneman/sta ... 5418885120Of course he was wrong. And Maddow went on to say that he acknowledged the error, was polite about it, and is working to get it right.And his twitter timeline shows that to be true:Brian W. Schoeneman@BrianSchoenemanMaritime labor lobbyist, Republican public official (Sec. Ffx. Elec. Board), lawyer, former Bush staffer, blogger, Orioles fan, Virginian, father, and husband.Fairfax, VA · bearingdrift.com[/break1]com/BrianSchoeneman]https://twitter.com/BrianSchoenemanHe tweets a lot about what is going on. So a good source to keep up with this. Click on over to see the latest. Anyway, after that stuff, Maddow went on to talk about Cooch changing rules mid-stream. And that is weird stuff.edit.

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#267

Post by Tarrant » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:04 pm

The funny thing is that most of the observers that I've seen report - from both parties - seem to indicate that the counting is going well and they see no funny business (save perhaps the changing of the provisional rules, which may result in litigation, who knows).But don't tell that to Freep, where the readers are all assuming it's all voter fraud (Democrat wins by 10%? Voter fraud. Dlcrat wins by 2%? Voter fraud. Statistical tie? Voter fraud. Republican wins by 5%? It would have been a bigger win if it weren't for voter fraud. They can't accept they can actually lose an election and/or aren't the majority), and that the Republican poll-watchers and such are all in on it and letting it happen (much like Freep insists that the Republican Party was sabotaging Cuccinelli) and that they're helping the Democrats with voter fraud and such so that the Tea Party doesn't win.

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#268

Post by Welsh Dragon » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:19 pm

[/break1]com/BrianSchoeneman]https://twitter.com/BrianSchoenemanHe tweets a lot about what is going on. So a good source to keep up with this. Click on over to see the latest. snipIt may not be obvious from his tweets but Brian Schoeneman is Secretary of the Fairfax County Electoral Board.

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#269

Post by Emma » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:32 pm

I concur, with the possible exception of the change in rules on provisional ballots. If it does indeed mean that Fairfax and Arlington are being counted on a more restrictive basis than counties who counted provisional ballots before the rule change than that is fishy and should not stand. However, missed tapes, math errors etc - I'm more inclined to believe human error rather than conspiracy.I saw the segment mentioned. Upthread, I posted links to the statutes on provisional ballots. So how is it legal for cuccinelli to change the rules for Fairfax?

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#270

Post by listeme » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:37 pm

As far as I can tell from the conversations I've seen (and I apologize for not having links), it wasn't a rule change so much as an implementation change/clarification. They would not have been able to pass a new rule at that point.I don't think it was Cuccinelli, either, was it?That's part of what's been troubling me about this whole thing. It is really hard to tell what the situation actually IS, and the talking heads have been exceedingly unhelpful.
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#271

Post by mimi » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:57 pm

As far as I can tell from the conversations I've seen (and I apologize for not having links), it wasn't a rule change so much as an implementation change/clarification. They would not have been able to pass a new rule at that point.I don't think it was Cuccinelli, either, was it?That's part of what's been troubling me about this whole thing. It is really hard to tell what the situation actually IS, and the talking heads have been exceedingly unhelpful.It came from the Attorney General's office.Last Friday, after most of the counties had finished going through their provisional ballots but while Fairfax County still had a fair amount of work to do, the state Board of Elections issued a directive telling Fairfax County and the rest of the state boards that they cannot have legal representatives (or party lawyers) stand in for voters to advocate that certain votes be counted. Fairfax County said its representatives had been allowed to do so in the past. The state board, which has two Republican members and one Democratic member, said it issued its clarification on the legal advice of the attorney general’s office in an effort to assure uniformity. From that point on, voters would have to argue for themselves that their provisional ballots deserved counting.Democrats cried foul, noting that the rule change emanated from failed Republican gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli’s office and came after the other counties were done counting, while Herring was closing the gap. Fairfax County—it should be noted—tends to skew Democrat. It looked like a rule change midstream, intended to benefit Obenshain, the Republican. Monday, however, the Virginia Board of Elections issued a further clarification, stating that Fairfax was the only county with this supposed policy (allowing outside advocates to argue for provisional ballots) and that it would be unfair for Fairfax to use this different rule. The board further clarified Monday that a voter would not need to show up in person but could supply any missing information by email or fax.So that could leave Democrats with the sole option of going to federal court to complain about the vote counting rules, especially those involving provisional ballots. There are actually two conflicting constitutional claims potentially at play: First, some read the Supreme Court’s controversial opinion in Bush v. Gore (which ended the 2000 presidential election in favor of George W. Bush) as requiring uniformity in how votes are counted across a state. If some counties allowed representatives to stand in for voters in the counting of provisional ballots and others did not, that might be a Bush v. Gore equal protection violation.Second, some courts have held that the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment bars a state from changing the rules for vote counting after an election has taken place; doing so always raises the possibility the rules are being changed to affect the outcome, and changes upset the settled expectations of the parties. If indeed Fairfax County had an established policy to allow legal representatives to stand in for voters in the counting of provisional ballots, then the new rule announced on Friday by the state Board of Elections could be considered a change in the law. But maybe not: If Fairfax were a rogue county and its rules violated state law, perhaps that should not count as an old law that has to be followed to comply with due process.And note how the two constitutional rules can conflict: If the state had an established policy that was non-uniform, what to do?more:[/break1]slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2013/11/virginia_attorney_general_s_race_how_democrats_could_win.html]http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... d_win.htmlAny way you look at it, it's a mess.

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#272

Post by SueDB » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:46 pm

Why doesn't the Cooch just declare martial law and appoint himself governor???
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#273

Post by listeme » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:49 pm

Taniel ‏@Taniel 5mThat's a highish 56% acceptance rate. RT @DianeCullo Update from Fairfax! 218 rejected; 275 accepted of provisionals. Stay tuned! #VAAGWe'll know the actual results soon :mrgreen: *One of the folks I've been following through this.
Edit: Taniel ‏@Taniel 30s.@JulieCareyNBC also hears Fairfax accepted 275 provs (56%). Despite worries about new rules, it's a higher share than 2012 (via @DCCyclone)
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#274

Post by listeme » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:01 pm

The wrangling begins in earnest:Max Smith ‏@amaxsmith 49s#fairfax provisionals accepted read in by number #vaag. GOP objects on equal protection. Says board here was wrong to intvw voters all week
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#275

Post by listeme » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:08 pm

Max Smith ‏@amaxsmith 15sBoard says voter supposed to get benefit of the doubt, and that's what they've done. 271 ballots about to be accepted.(The Fairfax County board is 2Rs, 1D, fwiw.)
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