The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

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realist
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#51

Post by realist » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:26 pm

esseff44 wrote:
Whatever4 wrote:
Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.

No! Don't go!
Nobody should have to listen to such a bunch of awful people as she thinks we are. How did she stand it for so long? Someone must have been twisting her arm and forced it on her. Damn! All that time suffering and never let on. :confused:
Those types of responses are exactly part of the problem PG post is speaking to. And she's correct in some respects.


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esseff44
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#52

Post by esseff44 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:02 pm

Suranis wrote:PG is a good woman, was BOTG and has valuable insights. Mocking her for leaving isn't a way to attract her back.
Why would she want to come back to read the pontifications of stuffed up people she described.
That was not belittling. That was scorched earth and burning bridges. I am so sad that she felt that way. I always enjoyed her posts. It just makes me feel ashamed for her having to suffer so because of things we discuss and brainstorm and vent about.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#53

Post by realist » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:34 pm

esseff44 wrote:
Suranis wrote:PG is a good woman, was BOTG and has valuable insights. Mocking her for leaving isn't a way to attract her back.
Why would she want to come back to read the pontifications of stuffed up people she described.
That was not belittling. That was scorched earth and burning bridges. I am so sad that she felt that way. I always enjoyed her posts. It just makes me feel ashamed for her having to suffer so because of things we discuss and brainstorm and vent about.
Your sarcasm is noted and completely unnecessary. But also completely expected.


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esseff44
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#54

Post by esseff44 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:48 pm

It was not sarcasm. Of course it was unnecessary as is everything else I and others post.



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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#55

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:55 pm

realist wrote:
esseff44 wrote:
Whatever4 wrote:

No! Don't go!
Nobody should have to listen to such a bunch of awful people as she thinks we are. How did she stand it for so long? Someone must have been twisting her arm and forced it on her. Damn! All that time suffering and never let on. :confused:
Those types of responses are exactly part of the problem PG post is speaking to. And she's correct in some respects.
How are "responses" offered in the same spirit that the original post was made part of the problem? What about the original post? Why is sarcasm offered in response to a post basically attacking half the board inappropriate?

She's obviously so fed up with whatever it is she's fed up with that she has no intention of coming back, and yet a regular, contributing member who is still here is being blamed for responding?

I don't get that logic.



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realist
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#56

Post by realist » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:00 pm

esseff44 wrote:It was not sarcasm.
Bullshit.


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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#57

Post by esseff44 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:19 pm

realist wrote:
esseff44 wrote:It was not sarcasm.
Bullshit.
Nope. It does make me sad. Were her insults to us necessary or expected?



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#58

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:42 pm

esseff44 wrote:
realist wrote:
esseff44 wrote:It was not sarcasm.
Bullshit.
Nope. It does make me sad. Were her insults to us necessary or expected?
I think she is hurting and frustrated and lashing out, like many people in this country are.


"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#59

Post by Lani » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:08 pm

Whatever4 wrote:
I think she is hurting and frustrated and lashing out, like many people in this country are.
:yeah:

I know I'm trying to keep a close watch on everything I say and do this week (and probably longer). I don't want to explode in a rage & sobbing combo, do something foolish and unhelpful, or lash out at people.


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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#60

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:26 pm

Lani wrote:
Whatever4 wrote:
I think she is hurting and frustrated and lashing out, like many people in this country are.
:yeah:

I know I'm trying to keep a close watch on everything I say and do this week (and probably longer). I don't want to explode in a rage & sobbing combo, do something foolish and unhelpful, or lash out at people.
:lovestruck: :bighug:


"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#61

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:20 am

Lani wrote:
Whatever4 wrote: I think she is hurting and frustrated and lashing out, like many people in this country are.
:yeah:

I know I'm trying to keep a close watch on everything I say and do this week (and probably longer). I don't want to explode in a rage & sobbing combo, do something foolish and unhelpful, or lash out at people.
I hear that. I'm trying to resist shopping for a sniper rifle.

(For clarification: not really, but damn...)


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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#62

Post by magdalen77 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:16 pm

The only real option is nuking them from orbit.

NADT



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#63

Post by Plutodog » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:14 pm

Might as well. They already believe that's our goal...

https://youtu.be/RtLEPPgbNyM


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#64

Post by esseff44 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:56 am

Bill Maher made some very good points there about the false equivalencies of how the narrative of the GOP and Dem candidates are portrayed to the voting public. The GOP created a false narrative about Obama and Kerry but the Dems were running against the real person of Bush. The monologue in that video could eas ily be replaced by comparing the false narrative invented about Hillary and the actual narrative of Trump. Swiftboating works. You can take the most decent and competent candidate you can find and the GOP propaganda machine will create a false narrative that will suppress votes for him or her. If Bernie had been running, I am absolutely certain they would have done the same thing for him. So, in any analysis, that has to be taken into account. The Dems seem almost helpless in addressing this issue.

We are hearing the false equivalency arguments again. Surrogates of The Menace are saying the Dems are doing the same thing to The Menace that the claim was done to Obama by the birthers and others. That's just wrong. The Menace himself bragged and tweeted about all the things we are repelled by and cannot accept. Bitherism was a totally false narrative and propagated by the same propagandist that gave us swiftboating as a thing. They never conceded a nanometer on Obama and are still obstructing. Trump was forced to make a one sentence concession as a part of a media punk and he still has not apologized for all his lack of decency towards Obama.

So, no. Trump gets no respect from me until he makes apologizes for all the insults and hurt and acts to make amends. Until he does, there is no possibility of bridging the enormous divide in the country. I have heard no Dem Congress member say they were going to make sure he is a failure and a one-turn president. There is a stark contrast between the way Obama has been treated and the attitude toward Trump.

I have heard pundits say that liberals ought to do some soul searching and think about how the conservatives felt in their defeat in '08 after Obama was elected. How fearful they were. Again the contrast is stark. They created the false fears about how Obama was going to take away their guns and all the other stuff we are so familiar with. How did that turn out for them. Still they would not honor his constitutional role of naming a Supreme Court Justice, a dramatic break with tradition and history. Compare that with the source of the fears so many people have now that are already coming to pass in the attacks and terrorizing of girls, women and minorities. All things that he modeled, bragged about and promised. Not wild fantastic threats created to keep a large segment of the population hating Obama and Hillary. Oh, sure, now we hear from them about how badly the Dems treated Bernie but that another ploy to weaken Democratic unity. They want the recriminations against Hillary and are feeding that narrative, too. It is a weakness of the Dems that they have a propensity for hurting themselves by providing fodder for their opponents. I was so proud that Hillary, Bernie and O'malley gave them almost nothing to work with. The most damage was Bernie's insistence of her releasing her speeches to Wall Street bankers. I didn't hear voters picking up that one as a reason for not voting for her. They had so much made up stuff to choose from like how she was going to abolish the Second Amendment and take their guns away and open the borders for anybody who wanted to come.

The situations are day and night. Genuine fear or fear by incessant lies. They are as different as day and night.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#65

Post by bloP » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:11 pm

The Trump vote fell behind the Romney vote in '12, but the Hillary vote fell comparatively further behind the Obama vote in '12. While exit polling data are notoriously uncertain, it appears nearly 90% of both Republicans and Democrats voted their ticket. And this is consistent with the increasing trend in polarization and non-split voting that we've seen over the past few years. It's also consistent with what we'd expect as the right shifts further and further to the right and drinks heavily from its fever swamps.

So this really feels not like a win for Trump, but a loss for Democrats. The Democratic Party just could not get its electorate to the polls. I'm sure there are multiple causes. But the geographic distribution of results points strongly to the Rust Belt, where Trump over performed and Hillary under performed. And, I might add, where both Bernie's and Trump's populist narratives rang true and Bernie's support was strongest. Combining this geographic distribution with my admittedly anecdotal observations of fervent #neverhillary Bernie supporters during this election, it appears very likely to me that Bernie's populist denouncement of Hillary and Establishment Democrats as corrupted politicians rang true enough that some of his followers drank the toxic sludge of the right wing fever swamps.

The cults of purity growing around the worldviews of the far left appear to have won Trump this election. As amazing as it seems, it appears fewer Republicans saw Trump as too toxic to elect than Democrats saw Hillary as too toxic to elect. Reflect on that.

In the wake of this upset, I'm now seeing a narrative emerge that Bernie should have been the Democratic front winner. And this narrative seems fitting following such a depressingly ironic election, given it seems clear it was Bernie voters who didn't vote.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#66

Post by Plutodog » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:00 pm

I don't know that it was Bernie voters who made the difference although they may have been part of it.

The sad fact is that technology as well as the emergence of so much of what is and was the Third World into global trade and manufacture was seen as an inevitable problem for employment and prosperity of our middle class several decades ago. It was unavoidable and it is happening. There are things we can do to ameliorate that, but defeat it, is not one of those things. My heart is drawn to trade war but my head knows better. I am in favor of trade agreements that require rough equivalency in union rights, worker compensation, job safety, environmental protection and reciprocity. And I am in favor of progressive taxation, withdrawal of recognition of corporations as persons and requirements that corporations be responsible members of the body politic. I'm in favor of welfare support for those who need it and affordable education for life. But we're facing a political opposition who is against much of that and quite willing to exploit the hurting workers in the way Trump did -- and even to ignore his great moral and character fails if it means winning control of all the levers of government. So it does no good to be squabbling amongst ourselves at this point.


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#67

Post by NotaPerson » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:16 pm

Plutodog wrote: The sad fact is that technology as well as the emergence of so much of what is and was the Third World into global trade and manufacture was seen as an inevitable problem for employment and prosperity of our middle class several decades ago. It was unavoidable and it is happening. There are things we can do to ameliorate that, but defeat it, is not one of those things.
I hear ya, and can't disagree. Unfortunately, telling voters "You're jobs are gone and they are not coming back" is not going to win their votes.

So what will? Other than selling them snake-oil and blaming immigrants the way Trump did.


Am I being detained?

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#68

Post by esseff44 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:18 pm

NotaPerson wrote:
Plutodog wrote: The sad fact is that technology as well as the emergence of so much of what is and was the Third World into global trade and manufacture was seen as an inevitable problem for employment and prosperity of our middle class several decades ago. It was unavoidable and it is happening. There are things we can do to ameliorate that, but defeat it, is not one of those things.
I hear ya, and can't disagree. Unfortunately, telling voters "You're jobs are gone and they are not coming back" is not going to win their votes.

So what will? Other than selling them snake-oil and blaming immigrants the way Trump did.
Welcome to our new poster and the very articulate and thoughtful first post. We have a thread for introductions which we hope you will use to tell us a little about yourself and your interests. After 3 posts, you get full functionality of the board and the welcome wagon should be along soon with treats and sweets.

P-dog, you make very good points. Keep it up. We need perspectives from all angles.

NotaPerson, I have been thinking those very same thoughts and agree completely that it is a huge part of the problem. I keep thinking about the Great Depression and how hard it was for FDR to get his programs passed through Congress. He faced the same kind of obstruction that Obama faced. That's why I never bought it the race thing as the main source of opposition but in no way propose that it was not a factor. I think Obama knew that and did he best to duplicate the kind of efforts FDR made with similar antagonist factions. But he had much longer to work on it. Let's just suppose that we had had a program like WPA and CCC that gave people work on projects that we still benefit from today. Our neighborhood rec centers and parks buildings were built by people in desperate need of jobs and wages to support their families. When we had the great recession, I was at a town hall and asked my Congress member why we didn't have those now. I didn't get a good answer. That's when we still had the House and Senate under Obama. I know he tried to get funding for infrastructure projects and some did get passed but that well dried up fast and the GOP was not going to fund anymore. Don't you remember how those programs were mocked? And the opposition to bailing out the auto companies? If Obama could have had support which he pleaded for from the public to pressure Congress but did not get, think of where we would be now. Think of where those workers would be now He was sabotaged at every turn. Once again, I blame the propaganda machines and the mock makers at Fox and conservative talk radio and TV for suppressing support for those projects. We had bridges falling down but still no funding to make needed repairs. The GOP had a long range plan and it worked. If Obama had succeeded, they would have no chance to get back the executive power and the power to appoint judges to the federal courts.

Now, if only those folks had understood that then and done their part as citizens, we would be in a different place now. But they didn't and we aren't. I know I am a broken record, but the propaganda machines have brought us to this and we absolutely must find a way to counter their effectiveness. That's been my refrain as soon as I saw their rise and it looks like it can be engraved on my tombstone. I have seen no concerted, organized effort to take the needed steps. In fact, the situation has gotten worse with the dominance of the internet as the main source of information.

But I am going to keep saying it until somebody listens.



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