The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

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P.K.
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#26

Post by P.K. » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:10 pm

PatGund wrote:My take on it.

We're fucked.

We went in eight years from electing our first African-American president to electing a president endorsed by the fucking KKK. The Alt-Right and other white nationalists are rubbing their tiny dicks raw at the news that it's pretty much open season on anyone they don't like.

We have a president-elect with no morals or ethics, who bends over and take it dry every time Putin goes "you, now" The US electorate got sold a bill of goods, and those of us who played Cassandra and warned everyone else know just how fucked we are.

We're scared, and with good reason.

The DNC has got to get their shit together. Bring back Howard Dean and the 50 state strategy. None of this playing fair shit anymore, they have got to get their fists bloody from now on. They've got to tell blue collar workers they're being screwed, who's doing the screwing, and how. They've got to call the talibanvelists out. They've got to fight for every last single vote.

And when the economy crashes, when we lose everything we've gained in the last eight years - hell, in the last 50, we have GOT to fucking use nail guns to attach this right on the GOP and all the mouth breathers on the right. They bought this train wreck, they can't be allowed to pawn it off on others.

The US elected a paranoid conspiracy nut as President. Expect the next few years to be policy as set by Alex Jones.

And finally

The Second Amendment is for every citizen of the United States. Not just those with a "-R" after their names. I know a lot of Liberals and Progressives who are gun owners. It's time for them to teach others that self-defense is their right as well. More so now for women, people of colour, and people of different faiths. The NRA is a shill of the GOP, but maybe it's time for a group for ALL Americans, not just the paranoid right. Make it clear that a lot of us moderates, progressives, and liberals ALSO own and use firearms, and reclaim the narrative that the "Democrats are gonna take your guns". Get concealed carry permits, hell, OPEN CARRY when you can. Cut that snake off at the head, and you get a lot of the people who would vote Democrat EXCEPT for that "they're gonna take our guns" fear.

And those on the "left" who don't like guns? I'll still defend my family and friends, but it's time you take a serious look at that stance and maybe rethink it Because if this country is going to do down the rabbit hole, you may need to have that ability to defend yourself and your family.
I'm on the left and I don't particularly like guns. But I'm seriously beginning about taking up guns as a new hobby. I'm that scared.


IANALBIPOOTV - I am not a lawyer, but I've played one on TV. In fact, IANA (fill in the blank) but chances are I've played on on TV.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#27

Post by PatGund » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:42 pm

P.K. wrote:I'm on the left and I don't particularly like guns. But I'm seriously beginning about taking up guns as a new hobby. I'm that scared.
I understand. Groups like PinkPistols (open to all), and Blazing Swords can help

http://www.pinkpistols.org

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mi ... 791016&z=2



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#28

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:06 pm

No guns in the home for me. I would be a greater danger to myself and others dear to me if I had them. State troopers are not all that far away.

And the greatest actual danger to me is probably the weasel or fisher cat in my front yard.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#29

Post by June bug » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:07 pm

Suranis wrote:ANother thing. You guys have beliefs, but you are leaving it to the other side to tell people about them, and half the time you are embarrassed to talk about them. I said this before and got shouted at, but according to a lot of peole the only things Dems care about is "coathangers, pervs, guns and running up the debt." No-one tells them that the Dems have reduced the dept in any administration becasue you don't have people running in half the states to do it. Thats why the Repubs can pretend to be Christian, conservative, and fischally responsible even though they are anything but

SOMEONE has to tell them, and the media isn't going to do it. Accept that you are in an unfair media environment and start planning on that. Just telling the truth isnt going to cut it when the Media promotes the lies for "fairness"

So yeah, If you believe in something, stand by it. Don't be like the dems who ran away from Health care reform for 3 elections as though it was like the plague. Stand by your positions even if you are getting attacked for them. You know, like I do.

And don't be a purist who dismisses people for one infraction. Liberals in America are hopelessly dogmatic even as they congratulate themselves on being "inclusive." If you have a good candidate that is, for example, pro-life, run him anyway. He can say he does not agree with the dems on this issue but he joined them becasue they believe in X y and Z. For example, if I ran for you guys I'd explain why I think the dems are more aligned with Christianity even though I am Pro-life. Having a discussion even if you are surrounded by Neanderthals means that you are getting ideas out. And it makes you seem reasonable and willing to listen.

So yeah, you wanted ideas, you got them. And don't turn around and say I was attacking you all, and don't get all offended that I used the word "pervs" in inverted quotes. Like you did last time. The fact is that's what the rural voters think you are all about and its time you got out there and telling them otherwise.

So have a towel. :towel:
Great post, Suranis, thank you...and thanks for the tucked in mousie redux too! :kiss:

And a bunch of :like: :like: :like: to Mike D also. We have to start building up our "minor league" teams all over this country. The path to Congress and the Presidency runs from school boards through city, county and state offices. Republicans started this strategy years ago and it's now paid off big-time. It may take us years, but it's the only way we can make systemic progress.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#30

Post by Plutodog » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:21 pm

Suranis wrote: Plutodog;

I'm not saying this to be unkind, but if don't do stuff becasue you are afraid of the otherside saying bad things about you, then you wont get anywhere. You think MLK was afraid of getting spat at when he started doing civil rights? Hell yes, he absolutely was, but he did it becasue he had to.

And the fact is, what you are doing is not working in this environment. You have t play the hand you are dealt rather than the one you wish you have. You are in a gerrymandered to hell environment with the media activly against you, and a party that will not play fair as if they do they lose power due to demographics, and they know it. Its time to accept that and make the other side play a little defence. Have people proclaim the truth even where no-one believes you, and where they laugh at you. And have people run everywhere.
Suranis -- you missed the two important words I spoke about. "Berated" was just the adding insult to injury part. The important part was "Ignored" and "beaten" - as in losing the election time after time as long as the gerrymandering is in place. When you come up with a tactic that gets around that IN THAT CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, do let me know. I'm always open to new tricks from folks more intelligent than me and even dumber than me. But I don't think the poor folks who run in those districts absent huuuuge luck are any more
Edit: likely to win
than the Washington Generals to the Harlem Globetrotters.


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#31

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:23 pm

Plutodog wrote: But I don't think the poor folks who run in those districts absent huuuuge luck are any more than the Washington Generals to the Harlem Globetrotters.
Wait, those games are fixed? Dammit, I just bet a fortune for the Generals to win!

Gerrymandering is a HUGE problem. I really thought the Dems could take the White House and the Senate this time around. But how to take the House? That one seems out of reach.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#32

Post by esseff44 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:49 pm

Compulsory voting is unAmerican. We can't even get single payer or even a public option on something as vital as health care. We can't get sane gun laws. Compulsory voting goes against the grain. Every fiber of my American being rebels at the very thought. It's what makes us exceptional. I have voted in every election since I was old enough to vote. But if you told me I had to vote or pay a fine or go to jail, I would go to jail. I am not kidding.

That is the problem with the current Obamacare model that people are rebelling against. If it's not an opt in system, people are going to rebel. Subsidies and Medical be damned. Having to prove your poverty to qualify for subsidies is humiliating. It was the poison pill in the ACA that had to be included in order to pass plus keeping the parasitic insurance companies rolling in profits. It's clear we are going to have to fight this battle again.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#33

Post by Patagoniagirl » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:24 pm

Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#34

Post by dunstvangeet » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:13 am

esseff44 wrote:Having to prove your poverty to qualify for subsidies is humiliating.
The poverty requirements are the same as declaring your income on your taxes. That's how exactly you prove it. So, you're saying that filing taxes is humiliating. There's a few problems with Obamacare. 1. The estimation of income ultimately is how you get your substady. You declare your estimated income, and that determines your income. However, if you are off on your income, then you can end up owing alot of money (I've seen it before when preparing taxes).



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#35

Post by esseff44 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:22 am

Yes, it is humiliating to have to jump through hoops to qualify for subsidies. It feels like welfare and it puts a lot of people onto Medicaid which again is associated with welfare. It's scary and humiliating and anxiety producing. Anything to do with the IRS is scary for most people and especially those at the lower end.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#36

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:23 am

esseff44 wrote:Compulsory voting is unAmerican. We can't even get single payer or even a public option on something as vital as health care. We can't get sane gun laws. Compulsory voting goes against the grain. Every fiber of my American being rebels at the very thought. It's what makes us exceptional. I have voted in every election since I was old enough to vote. But if you told me I had to vote or pay a fine or go to jail, I would go to jail. I am not kidding.
I used to feel the same way. Guess what? I was wrong.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#37

Post by Fortinbras » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:44 am

About one out of five Americans don't know that .... well, you name it, and they don't know it. In fact more than one in four can't tell you how many Senators they have or what their names are.

So making those ignorant people vote - making them dilute your better-informed votes with their ignorant votes - doesn't do democracy any good.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#38

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:49 am

Fortinbras wrote:About one out of five Americans don't know that .... well, you name it, and they don't know it. In fact more than one in four can't tell you how many Senators they have or what their names are.

So making those ignorant people vote - making them dilute your better-informed votes with their ignorant votes - doesn't do democracy any good.
I used to think that, too. And I was wrong. When people have to vote, most of them actually think about it
AS I've said only about 5% of the vote in Australia is informal. If people didn't want to vote they wouldn't - the law is that you have to pick up your ballot, what you do with it after that is up to you. Most people, the overwhelming majority of them, actually vote.

Every argument you have against compulsory voting, I've felt that wat too. But time and experience has changed my mind. I know it'll never happen in the US, but it really is a brilliant system.

ETA: Less than 50% of eligible voters voted this time around. That means Trump was elected by less than 25% of eligible voters. How is that a good, strong, healthy democracy? And do you really think all those people who stayed home are the stupid people who don't understand the system? Clearly the stupid people are already voting.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#39

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:52 am

Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.

No! Don't go!


"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
-- Sen. King (R-ME)

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#40

Post by esseff44 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:01 am

Whatever4 wrote:
Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.

No! Don't go!
Nobody should have to listen to such a bunch of awful people as she thinks we are. How did she stand it for so long? Someone must have been twisting her arm and forced it on her. Damn! All that time suffering and never let on. :confused:



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#41

Post by MN-Skeptic » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:07 am

I thought "pontification of legal matters" and "pontification over trials" was a prime reason for joining this site.


MAGA - Morons Are Governing America

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#42

Post by Whatever4 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:21 am

esseff44 wrote:
Whatever4 wrote:
Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.

No! Don't go!
Nobody should have to listen to such a bunch of awful people as she thinks we are. How did she stand it for so long? Someone must have been twisting her arm and forced it on her. Damn! All that time suffering and never let on. :confused:
I know PG, I've met her and we are Facebook friends. She has valuable insight and experience as an expat living near the poverty line in third-world countries, and with how the U.S. healthcare system deals with people who can't afford care. I completely understand her anger at the hubris and groupthink that has pervaded the forum on certain topics. The Bundy verdict and the election are pretty hard to take and both were completely opposite of what the predictions here were. Dissenters were scoffed at.

I've taken a few breaks from here myself. Another might be coming up. Please don't belittle members of the boogle.


"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#43

Post by Suranis » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:31 am

PG is a good woman, was BOTG and has valuable insights. Mocking her for leaving isn't a way to attract her back.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#44

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:35 am

Plutodog wrote:
Suranis wrote: Plutodog;

I'm not saying this to be unkind, but if don't do stuff becasue you are afraid of the otherside saying bad things about you, then you wont get anywhere. You think MLK was afraid of getting spat at when he started doing civil rights? Hell yes, he absolutely was, but he did it becasue he had to.

And the fact is, what you are doing is not working in this environment. You have t play the hand you are dealt rather than the one you wish you have. You are in a gerrymandered to hell environment with the media activly against you, and a party that will not play fair as if they do they lose power due to demographics, and they know it. Its time to accept that and make the other side play a little defence. Have people proclaim the truth even where no-one believes you, and where they laugh at you. And have people run everywhere.
Suranis -- you missed the two important words I spoke about. "Berated" was just the adding insult to injury part. The important part was "Ignored" and "beaten" - as in losing the election time after time as long as the gerrymandering is in place. When you come up with a tactic that gets around that IN THAT CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, do let me know. I'm always open to new tricks from folks more intelligent than me and even dumber than me. But I don't think the poor folks who run in those districts absent huuuuge luck are any more
Edit: likely to win
than the Washington Generals to the Harlem Globetrotters.
Getting beaten - in that congressional district, state senate district, county council race, whatever - is one of the things we need to do. I don't think we'll instantly get candidates that are any more likely to win than the Generals - this cycle, or next cycle, or the cycle after that. But I think that they'll start to get stronger with every cycle that goes by, if they're getting support from people who are willing to stand by them when they don't win, and help them keep building up for the next try. Basically, their 2016, 2018, and 2020 runs are part of their campaign for 2022 - by which point they (or a candidate like them) genuinely might have a real path to victory. Yes, we need to be working on immediate fixes, but we also need to be thinking about the long game.

My political contributions went to that kind of thing this year - to several young candidates who were running for office in Hawai‘i because they want a Democratic party that's more responsive to their concerns. I didn't think any of them was likely to win (and none did), but I've got absolutely no regrets about my donations. They're wonderful, committed people who will be spectacular leaders someday, and I've got their backs for as long at they're going to keep trying to get there.

The candidates I donated to this year were all people I already knew personally, in a state where they wouldn't have been making a difference in the D-R balance, but my plan going forward is to look for more candidates like them, running in places like maybe Dixie County, FL or out near Malheur, and do what little I can to help them start to build or rebuild a viable opposition in those places - get them a couple of hundred dollars for a batch of yard signs, for example. Some of them are probably going to be people who I don't agree with on all of the issues - who have, for example, views on guns that are nothing like my own, but *all* of them will be people who are with us on many more of the key issues than anyone they're running against. I want big changes, but I'm willing to accept them in incremental steps - like Alinsky suggested.

And I'm going to try to find ways to do a better job of communicating what we're about, and fighting against the way the message has been communicated to so many people. We shouldn't - can't - let our core values go, but we can get better and more creative in figuring out how to communicate the message in positive ways.

And if all that comes off as self-righteous or self-important, I'm genuinely sorry. These are the things I very strongly feel we need to start building if we're going to reclaim our country. If anyone thinks I'm wrong about that, please tell me why and tell me what will work better . I'm always, always going to try to be open to the idea that I could be wrong, and to finding better ways to get this done. But I want to get it done, I think we need to start now, and I don't have the time or energy to worry as much about my tone as I normally do.


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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#45

Post by Plutodog » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:20 am

OK, I see where you're coming from. It's going to take us, though, because the party isn't too good at spending seed money when they need feed money, if you know what I mean.


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#46

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:22 am

Plutodog wrote:OK, I see where you're coming from. It's going to take us, though, because the party isn't too good at spending seed money when they need feed money, if you know what I mean.
I know exactly what you mean. And you are right. So we find ways around that. Shouldn't be too hard to find candidates and donate directly, what with all the social media outreach everyone running does these days.


"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#47

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:46 am

Whatever4 wrote:
Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.
No! Don't go!
I agree. Stay and voice your concerns, PG. Be a counter-weight to attitudes you don't like. Your feelings are utterly valid, & I just hate to see you surrender. You have given me pause for thought on numerous occasions and caused me to re-think my assumptions. Keep doing it if you can; your insights are unique and valuable.


The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#48

Post by TollandRCR » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:28 am

Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.
PG, we need you. I need you.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control noover trals

#49

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:07 am

Patagoniagirl wrote:Hey. Some good folks here. But lots of puffed up, hyper-self important folks too. I am done. Listened to your Bundy bullshit, your cops are gawd, your pontification of legal matters, listened to your self-righteous Clinton/Trump bullshit, put up with your body shaming, your yuk-fuckitty fuck fuck over fashion, pontification over trials, everything. Asta luego. Bye,bye.
The good folks are also posting about the Bundys, legal issues that run the gamut, politics, trials, and a wide variety of other topics so I'm not sure what your objections are. Do you only object to opinions that differ from your own or do you have specific complaints? This board is basically a current events board at this point, with an emphasis on legal matters because of the make-up of the posters, now that the birthers are practically dead. If the topics on the things you listed didn't exist, I'm not sure what would be left but recipes and travel. Add your voice to the board and fight back against the pontification and bullshit.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#50

Post by bob » Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:19 pm

MN-Skeptic wrote:I thought "pontification of legal matters" and "pontification over trials" was a prime reason for joining this site.
:lol: I infer, however, from PG's use of "pontification" that she felt some people were being pompous.

Folks here have all kinds of expertises, but when attempting to predict something novel, even the experts can get it wrong sometimes.


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