The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

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Plutodog
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The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#1

Post by Plutodog » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:44 am

Whatever are we going to do?

Image


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Slartibartfast
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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#2

Post by Slartibartfast » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:48 am

Dawg,

We do the same thing we've always done---stand up for what's right as best we can.


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#3

Post by Plutodog » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:03 am

Slartibartfast wrote:Dawg,

We do the same thing we've always done---stand up for what's right as best we can.
That's kind of the point of my graphic...but we're going to have to do something different.


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#4

Post by Slartibartfast » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:04 am

True.


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#5

Post by Adrianinflorida » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:21 am

Unless Trump does a 180 and governs differently than he campaigned, he's a one term president. That said, it's going to take a flawless, electrifying candidate to win for the Dems in 2020.

No bullshit post-mortem like the GOP has done in 2008 and 2012, heads need to roll, and a top down rebuild of the party structure needs to start asap



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#6

Post by Plutodog » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:21 am

George Takei 2 hours ago

The unthinkable happened before, to my family in WWII. We got thru it. We held each other close. We kept our dignity and held to our ideals.


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#7

Post by Suranis » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:23 am

One think you Dems have to get through your skulls is that the era of Gentlemanly conceding states and counties to the GOP has to go. Too many places were left without a Dem candidate this election. If nothing else, SOMEONE has to be countering the bullshit, and your media isn't doing it.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#8

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:29 am

Suranis wrote:One think you Dems have to get through your skulls is that the era of Gentlemanly conceding states and counties to the GOP has to go. Too many places were left without a Dem candidate this election. If nothing else, SOMEONE has to be countering the bullshit, and your media isn't doing it.
:yeah:


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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#9

Post by esseff44 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:30 am

There are undemocratic structural flaws that cannot be corrected. They are enshrined in the Constitution. The Electoral College is undemocratic. Gerrymandering makes Congress more undemocratic. Tolerance of falsehoods makes everything worse.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#10

Post by Plutodog » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:31 am

I dunno. The only place Dems didn't field the best candidate they could, they would have been ignored, berated, beaten by the very carefully selected electorate where they ran. We need new ideas but I don't see that one working.


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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#11

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:37 am

Plutodog wrote:I dunno. The only place Dems didn't field the best candidate they could, they would have been ignored, berated, beaten by the very carefully selected electorate where they ran. We need new ideas but I don't see that one working.
One of the many things that brought us to where we are now is the Republican long-term program of fielding and supporting candidates at the state and local level. They started a hell of a long way in the hole in that regard, but putting in the work there is what got them to the point where they had the power to start gerrymandering the shit out of everything.

In other words, we really need more people to stand up, take one for the team, and run the hopeless races. Because that's how you start to pave the way for the next guy.


"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#12

Post by Slartibartfast » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:38 am

Suranis and Adrian,

You are absolutely right. We need a leader of the Democratic Party that can appeal to millennials, be welcoming to moderates, and adopt a 50 state strategy. Not having legitimate candidates in red states left the moderate Republicans vulnerable to primary challenges from the right. And the party needs to own this mistake and figure out why things went so badly wrong.

First and foremost the Democratic party needs to be FOR something. "Vote for us because the Republicans are worse" doesn't excite anyone. I knew Hillary was qualified and that she had thoughtful policy positions, but she never had a big idea to build a presidency on---or win one.


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#13

Post by Slartibartfast » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:45 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Plutodog wrote:I dunno. The only place Dems didn't field the best candidate they could, they would have been ignored, berated, beaten by the very carefully selected electorate where they ran. We need new ideas but I don't see that one working.
One of the many things that brought us to where we are now is the Republican long-term program of fielding and supporting candidates at the state and local level. They started a hell of a long way in the hole in that regard, but putting in the work there is what got them to the point where they had the power to start gerrymandering the shit out of everything.

In other words, we really need more people to stand up, take one for the team, and run the hopeless races. Because that's how you start to pave the way for the next guy.
I think you're right. I think we need a third party that provides infrastructure for ordinary people to run (starting at the state and local level)---and actively campaigns for the lesser of two evils at the end if they can't win (like Bill Weld). We need a party that stands for rationality and ideas and cooperation, not just "hooray for our side".


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#14

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:19 am

I'm taking this better than I took the Malheur verdicts. Those were a threat to the very fabric of democracy, by allowing an armed and tyrannical minority to impose their will on the majority. Democracy quite simply cannot work at the barrel of a gun. This was idiocy of the highest degree; but as my husband said after GWB won a second term, "Never underestimate the stupidity of the American voter."

I am not happy with the result; but I cannot imagine that very many people will remain happy with Trump. They will soon see that he is a fraud who simply can't deliver on his promises - either because doing so is illegal; or because he simply has no real desire to do so.

In a way I feel that this is karma for the GOP. They created this monster. Now they can't control it. Trump will, I feel, be the downfall of the party. I think mainstream Republicans know it too; and I have a feeling they're shitting themselves about now.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#15

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 3:21 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:
Plutodog wrote:I dunno. The only place Dems didn't field the best candidate they could, they would have been ignored, berated, beaten by the very carefully selected electorate where they ran. We need new ideas but I don't see that one working.
One of the many things that brought us to where we are now is the Republican long-term program of fielding and supporting candidates at the state and local level. They started a hell of a long way in the hole in that regard, but putting in the work there is what got them to the point where they had the power to start gerrymandering the shit out of everything.

In other words, we really need more people to stand up, take one for the team, and run the hopeless races. Because that's how you start to pave the way for the next guy.
I think you're right. I think we need a third party that provides infrastructure for ordinary people to run (starting at the state and local level)---and actively campaigns for the lesser of two evils at the end if they can't win (like Bill Weld). We need a party that stands for rationality and ideas and cooperation, not just "hooray for our side".
I would like the US to introduce preferences (which mean you can vote for a third party candidate; but then if that candidate doesn't win, your vote goes to your second choice) and compulsory voting (the true beauty of which is that it means that candidates have to run for everyone, and not just for a certain segment of the population - and so you end up with more centrist candidates over-all.) I don't think it's going to happen; but hey, a girl can dream.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#16

Post by Suranis » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:21 am

Preference voting has its downside too. It leads to a Government made up of lots of small parties where the most extreme get their way as they keep threatening to walk, and the government is constantly trying to keep 15 interests happy.

Plutodog;

I'm not saying this to be unkind, but if don't do stuff becasue you are afraid of the otherside saying bad things about you, then you wont get anywhere. You think MLK was afraid of getting spat at when he started doing civil rights? Hell yes, he absolutely was, but he did it becasue he had to.

And the fact is, what you are doing is not working in this environment. You have t play the hand you are dealt rather than the one you wish you have. You are in a gerrymandered to hell environment with the media activly against you, and a party that will not play fair as if they do they lose power due to demographics, and they know it. Its time to accept that and make the other side play a little defence. Have people proclaim the truth even where no-one believes you, and where they laugh at you. And have people run everywhere.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#17

Post by Suranis » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:43 am

ANother thing. You guys have beliefs, but you are leaving it to the other side to tell people about them, and half the time you are embarrassed to talk about them. I said this before and got shouted at, but according to a lot of peole the only things Dems care about is "coathangers, pervs, guns and running up the debt." No-one tells them that the Dems have reduced the dept in any administration becasue you don't have people running in half the states to do it. Thats why the Repubs can pretend to be Christian, conservative, and fischally responsible even though they are anything but

SOMEONE has to tell them, and the media isn't going to do it. Accept that you are in an unfair media environment and start planning on that. Just telling the truth isnt going to cut it when the Media promotes the lies for "fairness"

So yeah, If you believe in something, stand by it. Don't be like the dems who ran away from Health care reform for 3 elections as though it was like the plague. Stand by your positions even if you are getting attacked for them. You know, like I do.

And don't be a purist who dismisses people for one infraction. Liberals in America are hopelessly dogmatic even as they congratulate themselves on being "inclusive." If you have a good candidate that is, for example, pro-life, run him anyway. He can say he does not agree with the dems on this issue but he joined them becasue they believe in X y and Z. For example, if I ran for you guys I'd explain why I think the dems are more aligned with Christianity even though I am Pro-life. Having a discussion even if you are surrounded by Neanderthals means that you are getting ideas out. And it makes you seem reasonable and willing to listen.

So yeah, you wanted ideas, you got them. And don't turn around and say I was attacking you all, and don't get all offended that I used the word "pervs" in inverted quotes. Like you did last time. The fact is that's what the rural voters think you are all about and its time you got out there and telling them otherwise.

So have a towel. :towel:


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#18

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:54 am

Suranis wrote:Preference voting has its downside too. It leads to a Government made up of lots of small parties where the most extreme get their way as they keep threatening to walk, and the government is constantly trying to keep 15 interests happy.
Not necessarily. Preference voting means that, if a third-party candidate gets a lot of support (but doesn't win - and normally in Australian politics they don't) the party that wins will generally adopt some of their policies, because they understand that's what a large minority of people want. Preference voting also means that you can cast a protest vote, and not throw it away, and not wake up in the morning with a helluva "oh shit what have I done" hangover when you realise that all those protest votes mean you're stuck with an orange shitgibbon for the next four years.

ETA - Also too, compulsory voting means that most parties try to attract as many people as possible because they can't rely on the fringe to get elected. So, rather than make for small but extremist parties, it makes for medium-size centralist parties. Let's face it - the American system certainly is doing a piss-poor job of keeping the extremists at bay. The GOP can be as extreme as they are, precisely because they don't have to appeal to everyone, they just have to appeal to their rabid basest-of-the-base.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#19

Post by Suranis » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:01 am

That's an interesting respective. I'll have to think about that.

And yeah, I agree that compulsory voting should be introduced.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#20

Post by esseff44 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:44 am

Suranis wrote:That's an interesting respective. I'll have to think about that.

And yeah, I agree that compulsory voting should be introduced.
You will not get compulsory voting here. And it doesn't do the things you suggest. (The first person I met after voting today was an Aussie who told me about how it does not work very well in Australia.)



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#21

Post by RTH10260 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:23 am

Suranis wrote:Preference voting has its downside too. It leads to a Government made up of lots of small parties where the most extreme get their way as they keep threatening to walk, and the government is constantly trying to keep 15 interests happy. :snippity: .
After the bad experience as to how Hitler was able to play the small players against each other, in post war times they have come up with a lower limit of like 15% to establish a parliamentary representation. Only parties with some serious voter support will take the hurdle. As a side effect this gives the party a number of votes in the parliament, not just some lonely person to ignore.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#22

Post by Suranis » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:28 am

Just pointing out that that is the system in Germany, not always other places. Its not the system in Ireland, for example. Wish it was, its a good system imo.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#23

Post by Sam the Centipede » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:23 pm

Suranis wrote:Just pointing out that that is the system in Germany, not always other places. Its not the system in Ireland, for example. Wish it was, its a good system imo.
There are lots of variations: Greece has two modifications to simple proportionality. The parliament has 300 members. 250 members are elected by proportional vote, but any party with less than 3% of the vote is excluded (rather than getting 7 members). The remaining 50 seats are allocated to the party (or coalition of parties) with the largest number of votes, so getting about 41% of the vote will give a party a majority of members.

The wish to exclude small parties seems to be quite common; I guess because these systems are put in place by larger, governing parties?!

The twist to give the largest party some extra headroom is a nod to the idea that a government needs some headroom so it can implement its policies without being cornered by single-issue troublemakers.

In the UK, the national/regional governments for Wales and Scotland were given a system which works close to proportionally using additional "top up" members. That was done deliberately to prevent any party gaining a majority so becoming a strong government which might threaten the status of the London government. That's exactly the opposite motivation to the Greek system! However, in Scotland, the Scottish National Party became so popular (or the other parties became so unpopular) that it jumped over that high hurdle.

I think Northern Ireland (part of the UK) has some weird system but I don't know what it is. However, their system of government is designed to prevent dominance of one community over another (republican/Catholic versus Protestant/unionist).

But this is all irrelevant to the US. The system is as it is, and it ain't gonna change. People can dream all they like about perfect electoral systems, but first you have to win with what ya got.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#24

Post by PatGund » Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:41 pm

My take on it.

We're fucked.

We went in eight years from electing our first African-American president to electing a president endorsed by the fucking KKK. The Alt-Right and other white nationalists are rubbing their tiny dicks raw at the news that it's pretty much open season on anyone they don't like.

We have a president-elect with no morals or ethics, who bends over and take it dry every time Putin goes "you, now" The US electorate got sold a bill of goods, and those of us who played Cassandra and warned everyone else know just how fucked we are.

We're scared, and with good reason.

The DNC has got to get their shit together. Bring back Howard Dean and the 50 state strategy. None of this playing fair shit anymore, they have got to get their fists bloody from now on. They've got to tell blue collar workers they're being screwed, who's doing the screwing, and how. They've got to call the talibanvelists out. They've got to fight for every last single vote.

And when the economy crashes, when we lose everything we've gained in the last eight years - hell, in the last 50, we have GOT to fucking use nail guns to attach this right on the GOP and all the mouth breathers on the right. They bought this train wreck, they can't be allowed to pawn it off on others.

The US elected a paranoid conspiracy nut as President. Expect the next few years to be policy as set by Alex Jones.

And finally

The Second Amendment is for every citizen of the United States. Not just those with a "-R" after their names. I know a lot of Liberals and Progressives who are gun owners. It's time for them to teach others that self-defense is their right as well. More so now for women, people of colour, and people of different faiths. The NRA is a shill of the GOP, but maybe it's time for a group for ALL Americans, not just the paranoid right. Make it clear that a lot of us moderates, progressives, and liberals ALSO own and use firearms, and reclaim the narrative that the "Democrats are gonna take your guns". Get concealed carry permits, hell, OPEN CARRY when you can. Cut that snake off at the head, and you get a lot of the people who would vote Democrat EXCEPT for that "they're gonna take our guns" fear.

And those on the "left" who don't like guns? I'll still defend my family and friends, but it's time you take a serious look at that stance and maybe rethink it Because if this country is going to do down the rabbit hole, you may need to have that ability to defend yourself and your family.



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Re: The falsehoods we challenged fester and grow out of control now

#25

Post by maydijo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:56 pm

esseff44 wrote:
Suranis wrote:That's an interesting respective. I'll have to think about that.

And yeah, I agree that compulsory voting should be introduced.
You will not get compulsory voting here. And it doesn't do the things you suggest. (The first person I met after voting today was an Aussie who told me about how it does not work very well in Australia.)
Well, with respect, as an Australian with a degree in political science, I think the Aussie you spoke to was wrong. I used to hate compulsory voting but after 20 years of living here and quite a bit of studying the issue, I have been converted.

ETA - The most common complaint about compulsory voting is that people just submit a donkey vote/informal vote (e.g. rather than actually vote they draw a penis on the paper). In reality according to studies from the Australian Electoral College only about 5% of the vote is informal. That means that 95% of people actually do take the time to vote properly and have their voice heard.

With preferences it's not always easy to vote in Australia; with the lower house you number a piece of paper 1 - X (sometimes only 4, usually around 10) in order of who you want to win (so your first choice candidate is #1, your second choice is #2, etc.) With the Senate you can either put a 1 above the line for the party of your choice, and stop there; or you can number under the line by candidate, #1 for your first choice, #2 for your second choice, etc. There are usually 100+ Senate candidates but you only have to number up to about 20. That ballot paper is over a metre long, it's a monster of a thing. I worked our last election. This is purely ancedotal (we had about 400 votes cast at our polling station) but most people whose ballots I counted voted for the Senate voted below the line, which strongly suggests that they care about their vote.

In Australia, too, the voter is given the benefit of the doubt. We are told very clearly to count the vote if it's at all possible. Great allowances are made to include votes. The only votes that aren't counted are votes that are clearly informal, or votes that are not secret (e.g., if they've written on the ballot paper, "I, James Smith, cast my vote for Jane Doe.")



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