Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

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LtDansLegs
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1251

Post by LtDansLegs »

It's likely our state will be hopping on the indictment train as well, since 3449 of their calls were to Ohio residents and Cleveland is pissed about it. Our heroes get namedropped here at 8:21.

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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1252

Post by Suranis »

Read somewhere a few days back that Wohl has violated his bail conditions, but I cant remember where I read it so take that with a grain of salt.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1253

Post by Gregg »

Suranis wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:06 pm Read somewhere a few days back that Wohl has violated his bail conditions, but I cant remember where I read it so take that with a grain of salt.
I was of the nan-lawyer opinion that getting indicted in Michigan might have violated his bail in California.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1254

Post by Maybenaut »

Gregg wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:56 pm
Suranis wrote: Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:06 pm Read somewhere a few days back that Wohl has violated his bail conditions, but I cant remember where I read it so take that with a grain of salt.
I was of the nan-lawyer opinion that getting indicted in Michigan might have violated his bail in California.
I thought I read awhile back (long before they got arrested) that Avenatti was saying on twitter that he was violating his bail, but I can't remember what Avenatti was alleging, and I have grout that needs cleaning, so...
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1255

Post by woodworker »

Isn't one of the standard bail conditions (one would think I should personally know this) is that you shall not break the law while on bail. I know, innocent until proven a shithole, I mean guilty.
bring out the tumbrils. I am so fucking filled with pain and anger at what is going on in this country. I do deeply believe that if trump somehow retains power it will be the end of democracy in this country and the end of this country as we know it.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1256

Post by Volkonski »

Zachary Petrizzo
@ZTPetrizzo
·
52m
NEW: Jacob Wohl and Jack Burkman are now facing a newly filed civil lawsuit in NYC from the National Coalition on Black Civic Participation (
@NCBCP
) which alleges the duo’s robocall scheme violated the Ku Klux Klan Act of 1871.

https://t.co/d2pUmhLNQq?amp=1
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1257

Post by Volkonski »

Kristen Clarke 866-OUR-VOTE
@KristenClarkeJD
·
Oct 16
BREAKING: Robocalls imparting FALSE information to intimidate people from voting by mail are unlawful. We have filed a civil rights lawsuit under the Ku Klux Klan Act & Voting Rights Act to hold operatives accountable for their unlawful voter intimidation scheme.
@LawyersComm

Image

Image

Image
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1258

Post by Gregg »

Well, damn. I don't think I'll ever get Root Beer another donut on Jack's dime.

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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1259

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Gregg wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:39 pm Well, damn. I don't think I'll ever get Root Beer another donut on Jack's dime.

I will never not love that video.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1260

Post by RTH10260 »

Volkonski wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:18 pm Kristen Clarke 866-OUR-VOTE
@KristenClarkeJD
·
Oct 16
BREAKING: Robocalls imparting FALSE information to intimidate people from voting by mail are unlawful. We have filed a civil rights lawsuit under the Ku Klux Klan Act & Voting Rights Act to hold operatives accountable for their unlawful voter intimidation scheme.
@LawyersComm

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekfs3gXWMAA ... name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekfs3gVXIAE ... name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ekfs3gaWAAA ... name=large
I guess they never heard of such legislation :blackeye: :lol:
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1261

Post by woodworker »

They needn't worry. The current SCOTUS will rule that the KKK Act and all the hate speech/enhanced penalties for violent acts, etc. violate the First Amendment and infringe on free speech and the right to be a racist fucking asshole -- this is a new fundamental right that Barrett will find right next to Robert's equal sovereignty right, i.e., in their asses.
bring out the tumbrils. I am so fucking filled with pain and anger at what is going on in this country. I do deeply believe that if trump somehow retains power it will be the end of democracy in this country and the end of this country as we know it.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1262

Post by Orlylicious »

This is bizarre, it was on Jakey's Telegram. He's having beef with Steve Bannon? That must be a good story.

Wohl Bannon.JPG
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1263

Post by Gregg »

Looks like the check bounced.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1264

Post by Orlylicious »

How are you going to break this to Lt. Root Beer? That's been my only concern on this matter, Jakey and Jack can rot in hell for all I care. Do we need a GoFundMe? It's a more noble cause than many on there.

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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1265

Post by DejaMoo »

Will Sommer@willsommer
A twist in Jacob Wohl's felony case for voter suppression in Michigan: prosecutors want to call the fake Pete Buttigieg sexual assault accuser as a witness against Wohl. All the schemes are coming back for this trial.
I've heard this bull before.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1266

Post by fierceredpanda »

DejaMoo wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:16 pm
Will Sommer@willsommer
A twist in Jacob Wohl's felony case for voter suppression in Michigan: prosecutors want to call the fake Pete Buttigieg sexual assault accuser as a witness against Wohl. All the schemes are coming back for this trial.
Putting on my criminal defense lawyer hat, I'm wondering how prosecutors are going to make that testimony admissible. I'm not licensed in Michigan, and I'm not familiar with that state's rules on prior bad acts, but that would be something any criminal defense attorney would be preparing to fight like hell. Ordinarily, those things can come in only to prove motive, MO, lack of mistake, identity, etc. It cannot be used to smear the defendant or establish a pattern of conduct to convince the jury "well, this guy has done this before, so clearly he must have done whatever they say he did now."

Should be a fun bit of motion practice.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1267

Post by bob »

fierceredpanda wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:28 pmOrdinarily, those things can come in only to prove motive, MO, lack of mistake, identity, etc.
My first thought was common scheme.

Having said that, these schemes don't appear to have much in common. Motive is also somewhat a stretch.

Possibly as a counter to some sort of mistake defense; "Gosh, officer, I had no idea ratfuckery was illegal!"
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1268

Post by JohnPCapitalist »

fierceredpanda wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:28 pm
DejaMoo wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:16 pm
Will Sommer@willsommer
A twist in Jacob Wohl's felony case for voter suppression in Michigan: prosecutors want to call the fake Pete Buttigieg sexual assault accuser as a witness against Wohl. All the schemes are coming back for this trial.
Putting on my criminal defense lawyer hat, I'm wondering how prosecutors are going to make that testimony admissible. I'm not licensed in Michigan, and I'm not familiar with that state's rules on prior bad acts, but that would be something any criminal defense attorney would be preparing to fight like hell. Ordinarily, those things can come in only to prove motive, MO, lack of mistake, identity, etc. It cannot be used to smear the defendant or establish a pattern of conduct to convince the jury "well, this guy has done this before, so clearly he must have done whatever they say he did now."

Should be a fun bit of motion practice.
IANAL, so I'll pose this as a question. Would it be possible that this is being proposed as part of an effort to push the dipshit duo into a plea deal? In other words, we'll bring in a parade of witnesses to show that your whole life is about dirty tricks to go to intent?

Or could it also be a way to get sworn testimony from the fake accuser for later use in a civil suit?
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1269

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

Another guess: They tried to recruit the fake accuser for this scheme, and he now has a very interesting tale to tell.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1270

Post by fierceredpanda »

JohnPCapitalist wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:13 pm
fierceredpanda wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:28 pm
DejaMoo wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:16 pm
Putting on my criminal defense lawyer hat, I'm wondering how prosecutors are going to make that testimony admissible. I'm not licensed in Michigan, and I'm not familiar with that state's rules on prior bad acts, but that would be something any criminal defense attorney would be preparing to fight like hell. Ordinarily, those things can come in only to prove motive, MO, lack of mistake, identity, etc. It cannot be used to smear the defendant or establish a pattern of conduct to convince the jury "well, this guy has done this before, so clearly he must have done whatever they say he did now."

Should be a fun bit of motion practice.
IANAL, so I'll pose this as a question. Would it be possible that this is being proposed as part of an effort to push the dipshit duo into a plea deal? In other words, we'll bring in a parade of witnesses to show that your whole life is about dirty tricks to go to intent?

Or could it also be a way to get sworn testimony from the fake accuser for later use in a civil suit?
Two good questions, JPC, so I'll take them back-to-front:

Prosecutors don't care about civil lawsuits, full stop. A prosecutor who does anything whilst thinking about the impact on a pending or potential civil suit is manifestly derelict in his or her duty. If anything, the plaintiffs' attorneys in the civil suit against Wohl and Burkman probably wouldn't appreciate having their witness brought in as a witness in a criminal case. Generally you want witnesses to testify as few times as possible. Lock in their story, limit their time under cross-examination, protect them from contradicting or changing something. Part of why depositions are so useful in civil cases - a helpful preview of things to come - is also why they aren't allowed in criminal cases. Deposing prosecution witnesses in advance of trial could yield valuable information to the defense, or even compromise the credibility of those witnesses.

As to your first question, yes this could be (and probably is) at least in part a negotiating position. Most things we trial practitioners (both prosecution and criminal defense) do pretrial are done with a view towards improving our position for a negotiated settlement, for the simple reason that something like 98% of all criminal cases resolve that way. Other acts motions from the prosecution can ramp up the pressure on the defense because it offers a carrot of something less-than-ideal but far-from-catastrophic now on the one hand, but the implicit threat of a prosecutor with a stronger bargaining position if/when the court grants the other acts motion to admit the evidence. And, to get back on one of my personal soapboxes, this is one of those areas where trial judges all too often adopt the mindset of "fuck it, bring everything in and let the chips fall where they may," because defendants can appeal from convictions, but the prosecution can't appeal from an acquittal. I've seen prosecutors threaten to seek interlocutory review (i.e., send the case to the Court of Appeals in medias res) if a judge rules against them on this kind of motion. Is that outrageous in my opinion? Yes. Is it effective at cowing elected trial judges (who are frequently more afraid of voters than they are of getting reversed on appeal) into letting prosecutors do whatever they want? You bet it is.

So Wohl and Burkman's attorneys have to prepare for at least the possibility that this stuff is going to come in, and advise their clients accordingly. There's a really thin and blurry legal distinction between bringing in this sort of evidence to show intent or modus operandi (which is permitted), versus bringing it in to show prior consistent conduct or general bad character (which is not). There's also a balancing test to consider whether the prejudicial effect of a given piece of extrinsic evidence and its tendency to inflame the jury against the defendant is so great that it outweighs any probative value it might have in the matter at hand. In short: It's a highly subjective area of law. If nothing else, the prosecutors could bring the motion just to drive up Wohl and Burkman's defense counsel's billable hours. Yes, that's a thing. I've even been known to file defensible, albeit perhaps a bit...erm, optimistic (we'll say) motions to get a prosecutor's attention and make them put in some work to draft a reply. You'd be amazed how many times the "reply" is a phone call or email suddenly asking what my client wants in a plea bargain. See my above comment about how everything is potentially about improving your position in negotiations.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1271

Post by fierceredpanda »

Grumpy Old Guy wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:19 pm Another guess: They tried to recruit the fake accuser for this scheme, and he now has a very interesting tale to tell.
That's also possible, in which case there could be a common scheme connection to make the other acts motion a slam dunk. I tend to doubt it, though, because there isn't any real connection between the two plans. The attempt to smear Mayor Pete blew up in about five seconds, and it was a little while before the robocalls started. Not that I credit these two for being very smart, but it would be truly, remarkably stupid (even for them) if they'd then gone back to the guy whose story disintegrated in less than one news cycle to help them out with a shady robocall campaign.

But it is true that one should never underestimate the capacity for stupidity of most criminal defendants.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1272

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

Glad to see you are feeling better Fierce. Great write ups too.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1273

Post by bob »

To tag on, an appellate court is going to be at least somewhat deferential to a trial court's decision to admit the evidence. Partially because the system relies on trial courts to make these kinds of calls. And partially because it can't really gauge the impact of the evidence from a cold record. (Which, for example, doesn't capture the burly jury member's visible but silent reactions.)

So the prosecution may be rolling the dice with this stretch of an ask, as it costs basically nothing for it to ask. And even the threat of the evidence appearing at trial may be enough to sway the odds, the calculus that goes into deciding whether to plead out, etc.
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1274

Post by fierceredpanda »

Grumpy Old Guy wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:02 pm Glad to see you are feeling better Fierce. Great write ups too.
Off Topic
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Re: Jacob Wohl / Jack Burkman - hopelessly incompetent smear merchants

#1275

Post by fierceredpanda »

bob wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:07 pm To tag on, an appellate court is going to be at least somewhat deferential to a trial court's decision to admit the evidence. Partially because the system relies on trial courts to make these kinds of calls. And partially because it can't really gauge the impact of the evidence from a cold record. (Which, for example, doesn't capture the burly jury member's visible but silent reactions.)

So the prosecution may be rolling the dice with this stretch of an ask, as it costs basically nothing for it to ask. And even the threat of the evidence appearing at trial may be enough to sway the odds, the calculus that goes into deciding whether to plead out, etc.
:winner:

Except that the decision to admit the evidence does not get any deference at the appellate level, because the standard of review for those sorts of legal rulings is de novo. That being said, of course appellate judges do prefer not to reverse trial judges if they can avoid it - if for no other reason than professional courtesy, because getting reversed is embarrassing. And you're a thousand percent right on the cold record factor. Sometimes there's a way to get in a comment about that sort of thing on the record when the jury isn't present just so appellate counsel has something to work with. (I had to do this in a recent trial with a different issue with a couple jurors taking notes during the Court's reading of the jury instructions. Normally they don't have their notepads with them in court after the close of evidence, but COVID protocols changed that. Did I have any reason to suspect something improper was going on? No. But it's a deviation from the usual, so first the prosecutor, who had also noticed, and I had a sidebar with the judge, who had not noticed, the judge admonished them to stop taking notes, and then I made a record of what happened when the jury retired to deliberate. All so that it would be in the transcript if there were an appeal. Happily, the jury acquitted my client.)
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