Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

boots
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#251

Post by boots »

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:34 pm
Notorial Dissent wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:39 pm
You forgot "down from their attics and out from under their bridges" which I do think covers a lot of them. Jointly I don't think they are that much of a threat due to the whole can't get along with anyone thing. Even hiding out in other somewhat like minded groups I still think the whole get along thing would be a hinderance.
not "that much of a threat" is doing a lot of work here. and anyway the proposition that narcissists and sociopaths can't work together to achieve common goals would be seem to be refuted by the existence of the present administration. that said, who knows? i do think it's a mistake to think of "incels" as simply angry virgins trolls in basements rather than as people driven by misogynist beliefs that are increasingly indistinguishable from other fascist and quasi-fascist ideologies that have posed a threat over the last the decade.
I think they're readily distinguishable. Fascists and quasi-fascists have a political ideology. From what little I understand about incels they do not. And they're so unimportant that my computer tries to autocorrect them into "inches" when I type the word. These seem to be young men with time on their hands and no life experience, plus probably some bad upbringing and emotional disturbance going on.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#252

Post by John Thomas8 »

boots wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:14 pm
]These seem to be young men with time on their hands and no life experience, plus probably some bad upbringing and emotional disturbance going on.
Except that at least 3 of them have gone on mass murder sprees. They're not not a benign "movement", they're violent combined with stupid, entitled, and harbour hatred for women that exceeds anything tolerable.

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Azastan
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#253

Post by Azastan »

John Thomas8 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:18 pm
boots wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:14 pm
]These seem to be young men with time on their hands and no life experience, plus probably some bad upbringing and emotional disturbance going on.
Except that at least 3 of them have gone on mass murder sprees. They're not not a benign "movement", they're violent combined with stupid, entitled, and harbour hatred for women that exceeds anything tolerable.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that the women they physically attack for not being interested in them do not find them benign at all.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#254

Post by Jeffrey »

bad upbringing
Yeah like pipi mentioned, the Santa Barbara guy was privileged as heck as was the YouTube shooter.

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Patagoniagirl
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#255

Post by Patagoniagirl »

Jeffrey wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:31 pm
bad upbringing
Yeah like pipi mentioned, the Santa Barbara guy was privileged as heck as was the YouTube shooter.
To be fair, privileged does not always equal a good upbringing. Remember "Afluenza"?

I wish I could find an article I was reading the other day. It was about anger and discussed the role the frontal cortex plays in how we respond when we experience anger. When do we feel anger? When expectations are not met. When we feel slighted. So, perhaps how boys (and girls...we feel anger too) are raised and how society expresses/portrays just what we should expect, into incels. I think it all factors into much bad behavior.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#256

Post by boots »

You're equating being "privileged" with having a good upbringing. Those things are not analogous. It's possible to have a terrible upbringing and be miserable even though privileged. There are miserable adults who have every privilege as well. It's possible to be poor and have a good upbringing.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... come-incel

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#257

Post by Suranis »

The problem with Incels as a coherent group is that they hate themselves. Its a group that been whipped up by unscrupulous people and their anger has been misappropriated by the one group that seems to accept them, but really they desperately don't want to be part of that group. Most of them go along brcause they fell in with a group that gas loud obnoxious jakasses yelling bs and if they speak up they get thrown out, but very few of them would actually be pushed to do anything as a collective,

Basically, self loathing is a very poor rational for forming an army.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#258

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Texas ranks incels second only to white racially motivated attacks.
(U) Although not a new movement, Involuntary Celibates (Incels) are an emerging domestic terrorism threat as current adherents demonstrate marked acts or threats of violence in furtherance of their social grievance. Once viewed as a criminal threat by many law enforcement authorities, Incels are now seen as a growing domestic terrorism concern due to the ideological nature of recent Incel attacks internationally, nationwide, and in Texas. What begins as a personal grievance due to perceived rejection by women may morph into allegiance to, and attempts to further, an Incel Rebellion. The result has thrust the Incel movement into the realm of domestic terrorism. The violence demonstrated by Incels in the past decade, coupled with extremely violent online rhetoric, suggests this particular threat could soon match, or potentially eclipse, the level of lethalness demonstrated by other domestic terrorism types.
From the TX terror threat assessment. https://www.dps.texas.gov/director_staf ... ssment.pdf

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#259

Post by voxpopuluxe »

Suranis wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 am
The problem with Incels as a coherent group is that they hate themselves ...
gonna go out on a limb here and say that the problem with "incels" is that they hate other people.
“It was the worst of times, it was the worst of times.”
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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#260

Post by Notorial Dissent »

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:45 am
Suranis wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 am
The problem with Incels as a coherent group is that they hate themselves ...
gonna go out on a limb here and say that the problem with "incels" is that they hate other people.
It is real hard to not hate other people when you hate and loath yourself.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#261

Post by Suranis »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:50 am
It is real hard to not hate other people when you hate and loath yourself.
Exactly.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#262

Post by MN-Skeptic »

Suranis wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 am
The problem with Incels as a coherent group is that they hate themselves. Its a group that been whipped up by unscrupulous people and their anger has been misappropriated by the one group that seems to accept them, but really they desperately don't want to be part of that group. Most of them go along brcause they fell in with a group that gas loud obnoxious jakasses yelling bs and if they speak up they get thrown out, but very few of them would actually be pushed to do anything as a collective,

Basically, self loathing is a very poor rational for forming an army.
I don't think the individuals hate their own selves. I think they have high opinions of themselves and can't understand why others don't share that obvious fact.
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voxpopuluxe
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#263

Post by voxpopuluxe »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:50 am
It is real hard to not hate other people when you hate and loath yourself.
yeah, lots of violent people and people who make violent threats hate themselves; and lots of people who aren't violent or make violent threats hate themselves. is there a point i'm missing here beyond that general observation?

i feel like part of what's at disagreement here is whether or not the behavior of people who call themselves "incels" is merely an individual psychological problem or a greater social/political problem. i'd probably concede that the chances are high that any one of these people have unhappy, unstable lives—tho i think that an insistance on an etiology of unhappiness suggests an ignorance of happy bullies—but taken collectively the obsessive, if disorganized, misogyny of the incels is just as much a social/political threat as racially motivated attacks, or the organized hatred of trump rallies, or of fascist/neo-right organizations (all of whom have some perpetrators in common, i expect)

all of which is to say that the obsessive fantasies of masculinity and misogyny of incel-land are foundational to any fascist ideology and i don't know why people are so determined to see them as a bunch of sad boys.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#264

Post by RoadScholar »

I do. Because they blame others (women, feminists, society, etc.) for their problems.

Sartre and Camus would say they are simply cowards and weaklings. They are a sorry excuse for men; not really men at all, as I understand the term. Thus: sad boys.

Will they lash out individually? Probably, with some tragic results. But a full-on social rebellion? Probably not.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#265

Post by neeneko »

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:37 am
I don't think the individuals hate their own selves. I think they have high opinions of themselves and can't understand why others don't share that obvious fact.
This is a common perception and stereotype, but I have not found it to be true for the most part. I spent years on the fringes of the incel community, and what I mostly encountered were people deeply unhappy, self loathing, mentally ill, hopeless,.. desperately seeking any structure or support they could find, and lashing out. They were the real bottom of the bucket people, the people everyone quietly agrees are ok to bully and look down on. They generally interalized the view they are worthless.

Part of the problem they run into is others see them in such low regard that even wanting to be treated the same is seen as having too high an opinion of themselves which others do not share.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#266

Post by p0rtia »

This convo it taking on the language and feel of the racism argument.

And second now someone is going to state that hate is rooted in fear, which is the real problem.

Can we skip to the chase and state that it is an ugly, abusive, destructive complex that has both societal momentum and individual voice? That it is something society and individuals should condemn and fight?
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#267

Post by RoadScholar »

Fair enough.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#268

Post by DejaMoo »

boots wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:57 pm
Notorial Dissent wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:40 am
I 'm kind of surprised they don't have websites/styes of their own, but I seriously doubt they can get along with each other long enough or well enough to do anything in concert. They kind of remind me of birfers only stupider and filthy/nastier.
I agree. For these types to accomplish anything they would have to be capable of coordinating for a common goal, and would have to venture out of their parents' basements. I don't see how these losers can be a threat.
The École Polytechnique mass shooting in 1989.
The 25-year-old made his way into a classroom, ordering the men out. Alone with the remaining nine female students, he declared his hatred for feminists before spraying them with bullets, killing six of them instantly. The others, wounded, played dead until he left the room.

He then moved methodically through the halls and cafeteria of the l’Université de Montréal’s engineering school, shooting more women, cutting some down as they ran for their lives, until he came to a second-floor classroom where he killed more as he ranted. He turned his gun on himself after he stabbed his last victim.

By the time police intervened, it was too late. The 20-minute rampage left 14 women dead, including 13 students and an administrative assistant.
But the events of three decades ago are not a horrifying memory safely confined to a bygone era. From the viewpoint of 2019, the Polytechnique shooting now seems like an unfortunate foretelling of things to come.

Two weeks ago, a young woman in Chicago was killed by a man after she ignored his catcalls. Last November, a man whose hatred of women was well-documented online shot six women at a hot yoga studio, killing two. And seven months earlier, a man named Alek Minassian drove a van on to a Toronto sidewalk and killed 10 people, eight of them women.

The sexually frustrated young man behind the van’s wheel – a self-described incel, or “involuntary celibate” – saw his act as retribution against women who had starved him of the affection he felt he was rightfully owed. Minassian said he was inspired by Elliot Rodger, an incel and wannabe pickup artist who shot 20 people in 2014.
2014 Isla Vista killings
On the evening of May 23, 2014, in Isla Vista, California, 22-year-old Elliot Rodger killed six people and injured fourteen others near the campus of University of California, Santa Barbara, before killing himself inside his vehicle.

Just before driving to the sorority house, Rodger uploaded to YouTube a video titled "Elliot Rodger's Retribution", in which he outlined details of his upcoming attack and his motives. He explained that he wanted to punish women for rejecting him, and punish sexually active men because he envied them. After uploading the video, Rodger e-mailed a lengthy autobiographical manuscript to some of his acquaintances, his therapist and several family members. The document, titled "My Twisted World: The Story of Elliot Rodger", was made available on the Internet and became widely known as his manifesto. In it, he described his childhood, family conflicts, frustration over not being able to find a girlfriend, his hatred of women, his contempt for couples (especially interracial couples), and his plans for what he described as "retribution".
Mass shootings and misogyny: The violent ideology we can't ignore
...According to statements from authorities and media reports from people who knew the alleged gunmen, the three mass shooters in Dayton, Ohio; El Paso, Texas; and Gilroy, California, either explicitly expressed hatred for women or embraced forms of extremism connected to a disdain for them.

High school classmates of Connor Betts, 24, the gunman who killed nine people Sunday in Dayton, say he was suspended for compiling a “hit list” of people he wanted to kill and a “rape list” of girls he wanted to sexually assault, according to the Associated Press.

According to an analysis by Everytown for Gun Safety, the majority of mass shootings between January 2009 and December 2017 were related to domestic or family violence.

"While not all misogynists are racists, and not every white supremacist is a misogynist, a deep-seated loathing of women acts as a connective tissue between many white supremacists, especially those in the alt-right, and their lesser-known brothers in hate like incels (involuntary celibates), MRAs (Men’s Rights Activists) and PUAs (Pick Up Artists)," read a report from the Anti-Defamation League.
:snippity:
"Anything that is given to any other category of people is theft from white males," Hankes said, describing the notion. "I think gender is of course wrapped up in that."

For many of these shooters, hatred toward women and racist sentiment weave together, said Jennifer Carlson, a sociology professor at the University of Arizona who studies gun politics and gender.

"Some of these murderers explicitly detail hatred toward women in their manifestos; for others, a sense of gendered aggrievement centered on masculine entitlement – what some call the 'real men get revenge' attitude – is clear in the way these mass killings unfold," she said. "And importantly, this is often intertwined with racism and white supremacy – a number of active shooters have explicitly linked their misogynist views about women to racist resentments regarding other men’s access to women’s bodies."
I have been talking about this on TFB for years now. These are Abusive Males - men with an overweening sense of entitlement and subsequent rage when their (self-assumed) superiority does not earn them the privileges and deference they believe are their due.

And not all of these guys are basement-dwelling losers. Some of these incel and white supremacy sites have been created by or supported by successful men with good jobs/careers. Reddit's Red Pill subreddit was created by a man who's a New Hampshire state legislator and a local business owner. It's not about what they lack, it's about what they fiercely and furiously believe the world owes them. And when everyone else doesn't recognize that as their due, they get angrier yet. . . especially at those they consider their obvious inferiors, meaning females and minorities. Which explains the white supremacy and naked misogyny.
I've heard this bull before.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#269

Post by DejaMoo »

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:37 am
Suranis wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:26 am
The problem with Incels as a coherent group is that they hate themselves. Its a group that been whipped up by unscrupulous people and their anger has been misappropriated by the one group that seems to accept them, but really they desperately don't want to be part of that group. Most of them go along brcause they fell in with a group that gas loud obnoxious jakasses yelling bs and if they speak up they get thrown out, but very few of them would actually be pushed to do anything as a collective,

Basically, self loathing is a very poor rational for forming an army.
I don't think the individuals hate their own selves. I think they have high opinions of themselves and can't understand why others don't share that obvious fact.
Bingo. These are not pitiful people. They are men who rage because the world isn't providing them what they believe they are entitled to. These guys are domestic abusers in thought if not in deed - all they need is access to a victim. Look at the number of white collar, well-educated, professional domestic abusers there are. They're not beating up women because they feel inferior. They're beating up women to show their superiority and dominance over them. White supremacists do the same to minorities, for the same reason - and there's a lot of overlap between misogyny and white supremacy.

Tl;dr: They don't feel inferior, they feel superior, and that's why they attack.
I've heard this bull before.

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#270

Post by Notorial Dissent »

They are enraged that the rest of the world does not recognize, acknowledge, submit and bow down to their "assumed/presumed" superiority.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Suranis
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#271

Post by Suranis »

Look, just because there are men out there who abuse women over not responding right their advances does not mean that those men are part of the Incel movement. so posting examples of guys attacking women is actually a logical fallicy.

And its frankly shared by people who haven't actually looked at Incels. You are assuming what they are, not seeing what they actually are. And for reasons that come very close to misandry, to be frank.

And ya I'm sure the Incel redit was created by a powerful politician. Guess what, that's what exploiter do. they take people who are lonely and misunderstood, give them a home then gradually push their anger to extremes. That means the founder is a politician who wants to exploit people with a grievience, not that he shares that Grievance, just that he wants to exploit it. Its the same thing as the Racist orgs. They take people who are lonely give them lots of companionship then gradually make agreeing that (example) the Jews are evil as a condition of remaining where there is companionship. The Klan, Nazis, militia, Qanon, whatever. its exactly the same process.

The fact is, the actual incels hate themselves, A guy that goes berserk because he has been rejected would actually have a very HIGH opinion of themselves and is probably not used to being rejected. These guys have been rejected their entire goddam life. They are USED to being rejected. They are used to just taking it, and slinking away dejected. Again people who are used to being rejected don't explode when it happens.

Then they fall into a website started by an exploitative asshole that tell's them that women are evil and the source of their problems. But the fact is they don't believe it.

So maybe you should start using that progressive understanding, rather than slapping around labels and assumptions?
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#272

Post by Patagoniagirl »

^ I can't make sense of that. At all.

What you think Incels are and who they are does not mesh.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.co ... ion-reddit

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#273

Post by p0rtia »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:30 pm
They are enraged that the rest of the world does not recognize, acknowledge, submit and bow down to their "assumed/presumed" superiority.
:yeah:

And they are not new. Just newly organized.
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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#274

Post by neeneko »

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm
What you think Incels are and who they are does not mesh.
One possible source of mismatch is what incels are has changed drastically over the last decade or so. So people who interacted with the community before it became known for shooting places up and then got a bit of a demographic shift think of different subgroups when the term comes up. Incels really did not use to be violent, something has reshaped the community over a fairly short timespan.

And TBH, it actually is kinda grating to see places like Vox talk about them now that there is something sensational to focus on, which then changes who seeks the group out and who avoids it. I don't believe there was any kind of plan or conspiracy, but I did notice the incel community changed to match the media's description of it pretty quickly after the media started paying attention. Not exactly strong willed people TBH.

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#275

Post by Suranis »

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:55 pm
^ I can't make sense of that. At all.
Its pretty standard for how hate groups recruit people. Give people who are unhappy, lonely and marginalised a community, and suck them in. Then work on their thinking by group bombing them and threatening social isolation if they don't conform.

Does not change the fact that they don't get sucked into an Incel specific community if they dont hate themselves above all. Thjey talk big smack in front of their peers but that is just talk.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-ne ... -isolation

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/ ... o-the-same

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... -they-join

Anyway I guess I'm gonna be shouted down again so I'll leave it at that.
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