Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

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Addie
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Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#1

Post by Addie » Fri May 04, 2018 12:39 pm

The Guardian OpEd - Jason Wilson
What do incels, fascists and terrorists have in common? Violent misogyny

Many accounts of incel subculture have treated it as a sharp deviation from the norm. It’s not ...


Too many people have taken the incels’ explanation of their own virulent misogyny at face value, and repeated the comfortable line that these men stand apart from all others. Along with influential columnists, even economists have endorsed the idea of “sexual marketplace”, wherein women are figured as a commodity, and some men have inadequate buying power to procure. (Most have been too polite to mention many incels’ accompanying belief that the world, and women, are so corrupted that sex is beneath them.)

It would be easier to to go along with this were it not for the fact that every day, women are subjected to violence for similar reasons to those that incels offer but without similar media attention. Women who deny men sex are raped and killed without the involvement of any oddball internet forums. Women are also subjected to murder and abuse when men decide that they are too sexually available to other men. Women are killed because some man or another, who may not be known to them, decides that they will be held to account for his own inability to make lasting social connections, or to live the life to which he feels he is entitled.

On a more basic level, many men endeavour to put women back in their place, and to unwind whatever freedoms that feminism has won. These freedoms include the freedom to speak in public. In Australia, ostensibly respectable media institutions hounded a young Muslim woman out of the country for speaking her mind about the country’s militaristic civic religion. More recently, a female comedian who spoke on the same topic was apparently paid a visit by far right thugs. Incels aren’t the only ones who line up to punish women.

What distinguishes their subculture is that they have developed a new way of codifying, disseminating, and radicalising a particular expression of misogyny. But their beliefs, and even their behaviours, are an exaggerated version of the structures of thought and feeling that characterise patriarchy.

What puts them adjacent to fascism is not only the copious links between incels, the “manosphere”, and the alt right, but the way that their culture, and their forums, work to shape their resentment, and channel their desires towards violence. This violence may not yet be organised on a mass scale but it is celebrated as a natural end-point of their endeavours, and as a positive political value. This is a misogyny that desires the death of the other, and the chances are that we will look back on it as the harbinger, and the heart, of an even more extensive program of violence.
Adding:

April 25, 2018
Vox: Incel, the misogynist ideology that inspired the deadly Toronto attack, explained


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#2

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 1:15 pm

I have trouble even seeing incels as even much of a subculture. Outside a few memes and vocabulary they are not really all that much different than a pretty sizable chunk of the male population and I think they are only really getting attention because they are using a label people do not immediately recognize and that makes it easy to sensationalize the small number of crimes they have committed.

I would not even describe them as a particularly dangerous group, their rhetoric is less violent than a lot of the stuff I see in man-heavy forums whenever the topic of women and sex come up. But they are the new strange thing that bloggers and reporters can talk about that make the problem feel more distant from their world and social connections.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#3

Post by Suranis » Fri May 04, 2018 1:28 pm

Reading about this I'm increasingly reminded of the stories of people who falling into radicalism of various kinds. They all appeal to lonely, angry men, and they offer a community of people to bond with and an enemy to blame, and they slowly warp the guys perceptions. I read a while back a story about a guy who got out and now help people leave these movements. He said they all appeal to anger, and the fact that they appeal to men is that women have better support networks. Women tend to talk to one another, young men as a rule don't talk to one another or look for support with one another, especially about their feelings.

In short I see this as yet another manifestation of the same problem that gave us the Skinheads and the various colour shirts of the Facist era, and honestly I dont see it as being much different. "Women" are just yet another boggieman to blame stuff on. If you looked at the various different groups you would see other fantasies of violence to be done to the "other."


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#4

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 1:43 pm

Suranis wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:28 pm
He said they all appeal to anger, and the fact that they appeal to men is that women have better support networks. Women tend to talk to one another, young men as a rule don't talk to one another or look for support with one another, especially about their feelings.
*nod* I think one of the other big reasons we see so many young men rather than young women is structure. Young women tend to be much more socially bound, their behavior more tightly corralled and corrected. One thing that a lot of these ideologies provide is a self consistent structure they can drop into that has all the answers and lays out rules for both their behavior and everyone else's. It brings a nice easily explained order to their chaos.

There is also the PUA feeder. That is a community pretty much built for answering questions and explaining society to confused young men, with well defined structures and rules for navigating social problems that they have trouble making sense of. If they are unable to apply these rules in a way that starts to improve their lives, there is a funnel going from that community to both MRAs (if they get relationships that go bad) and incels (if they fail to get relationships) with increasingly misogynistic explanations for their troubles.

Something I am missing though is what changed with incels over the last year or two. They are a group I am long familiar with, but up until lately they were mostly just a bit of a joke. They were the ones to harmless/whiny/pathetic to make it in MRA/MGTOW/PUA circles. They were the height of complaining about how unfair the world was and doing nothing about it (less likely to even dox or harass), more likely than other groups to be jobless and isolated. So I missed some bit of recent history where they seem to have transformed. I wonder if it happened before or after they got kicked off reddit and how gamergate might have transformed them.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#5

Post by RoadScholar » Fri May 04, 2018 2:04 pm

"They were the ones to[o] harmless/whiny/pathetic to make it in MRA/MGTOW/PUA circles. "

Acronym cleanup on aisle 7! Just tryin' to keep up.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#6

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 2:14 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:04 pm
Acronym cleanup on aisle 7! Just tryin' to keep up.
Heh.

Unfortunately, other communities I interact with either overlap or collide with these groups, so I am depressingly and frustratingly familiar with them.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#7

Post by RoadScholar » Fri May 04, 2018 2:16 pm

neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:14 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:04 pm
Acronym cleanup on aisle 7! Just tryin' to keep up.
Heh.

Unfortunately, other communities I interact with either overlap or collide with these groups, so I am depressingly and frustratingly familiar with them.
I'm serious. I have no idea what those letters stand for.

Edit: And acronyms are notoriously tough to google... you end up with 500 different translations.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#8

Post by listeme » Fri May 04, 2018 2:20 pm

RoadScholar wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:16 pm
neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:14 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:04 pm
Acronym cleanup on aisle 7! Just tryin' to keep up.
Heh.

Unfortunately, other communities I interact with either overlap or collide with these groups, so I am depressingly and frustratingly familiar with them.
I'm serious. I have no idea what those letters stand for.

Edit: And acronyms are notoriously tough to google... you end up with 500 different translations.
MRA = mens rights activists
PUA = pick up artists
MGTOW = men going their own way? I think that's right.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#9

Post by That Eurojerk » Fri May 04, 2018 2:27 pm

There are very few non-americans on this forum. Honestly - does anyone of those has ever heard of these people in his homecountry ? Me - not.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#10

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 2:28 pm

listeme wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:20 pm
MRA = mens rights activists
PUA = pick up artists
MGTOW = men going their own way? I think that's right.
Yep, Men Going Their Own Way. They tend to be among the most mockable since their identity is centred around the idea that women need men more than men need women, so they are going to take their manly selves and do manly stuff with other men (and yeah, like the political lesbianism in 2nd wave feminism, some of them do go the politically gay route).. yet their forums are pretty much nothing but complaining about women cramping their styles out in the real world.... though it tends to focus more on workplace/social space issues than dating.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#11

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri May 04, 2018 2:38 pm

neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 1:43 pm
Something I am missing though is what changed with incels over the last year or two.
They appear to have been radicalizing themselves. They have been making heroes out of spree killers and telling each other that the best thing in life is to kill and maim the women they hate. And they've been doing it over and over. I'm a little surprised that more of them haven't acted out their rage.

On the whole I don't think the incels are "worse" than any of the other kinds of misogynists who cluster around the "manosphere," but they do appear to be in the vanguard of turning misogyny into a nihilist death cult.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#12

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri May 04, 2018 2:42 pm

It's also possible, I suppose, that Elliot Rogers suddenly made their fantasies seem possible, in much the same way that serial killings produce copycats.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#13

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 2:54 pm

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:42 pm
It's also possible, I suppose, that Elliot Rogers suddenly made their fantasies seem possible, in much the same way that serial killings produce copycats.
Yeah, I can see that as the catalyst. Then it took I guess 3 years or so for it to finally get bad enough that they got kicked off reddit. I wonder how much of it was a change in membership or a change in their members. Rogers got them enough attention that it might have changed who joined and participated.

Years back they were less 'woman hating' and more 'poor me', mostly seeming to obsess over how SSI should include prostitution or how charities should include such services in their outreach. A lot of shut in and disabled people, which almost made them too depressing to mock. In their more lucid posts they actually had some interesting things to say about the importance of intimacy on mental and physical health, and how that type of support was completely lacking in modern healthcare outside viagra prescriptions.

Today they seem more angry and affluent. Very creepy transition.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#14

Post by HilltownGrrl » Fri May 04, 2018 2:55 pm

If you want to learn more or do a deep dive on these communities, without going to the communities, read We Hunted the Mammoth http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/ David Futrelle has been following these groups & writing about them for several years. He's to the manosphere what JJ MacNab is to the SovCit et al movement (somehow who tracks this closely & really knows his/her stuff).

As you'll see there's differences, mostly of degree, between all the groups & the consensus is that the Incels are, right now, the most dangerous. It's fascinating, disturbing, & downright creepy reading.

PS They refer to Elliot Rodgers as a saint :sick: :bigvomit:

edit: hangs head - I mispelled JJ's last name. Twice


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#15

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 2:59 pm

HilltownGrrl wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:55 pm
If you want to learn more or do a deep dive on these communities, without going to the communities, read We Hunted the Mammoth http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/ David Futrelle has been following these groups & writing about them for several years.
I have mixed feelings on that blog, but second it as being a great resource to get insight into those communities.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#16

Post by HilltownGrrl » Fri May 04, 2018 3:20 pm

neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:59 pm
HilltownGrrl wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:55 pm
If you want to learn more or do a deep dive on these communities, without going to the communities, read We Hunted the Mammoth http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/ David Futrelle has been following these groups & writing about them for several years.
I have mixed feelings on that blog, but second it as being a great resource to get insight into those communities.
Me too (on the mixed feelings) but thanks to Futrelle, I've learned a lot of what I needed to know (needed, mind you, not wanted) about the manosphere without having to visit it. As a researcher, I find things like the alt-right & manosphere fascinating. As a decent person (& a woman to boot), I find them, well, words fail me. Appalling? Horrifying? Unamerican? Only-too-American? I don't know but likely all of them Katie. It also makes me sad that these men are out there so angry & hurting with really unrealistic ideas of what others' lives are like.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#17

Post by RoadScholar » Fri May 04, 2018 3:22 pm

Thanks, listeme. :-D I seem to be mercifully unexposed to these... fellows.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#18

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 3:41 pm

HilltownGrrl wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:20 pm
Me too (on the mixed feelings) but thanks to Futrelle, I've learned a lot of what I needed to know (needed, mind you, not wanted) about the manosphere without having to visit it. As a researcher, I find things like the alt-right & manosphere fascinating. As a decent person (& a woman to boot), I find them, well, words fail me. Appalling? Horrifying? Unamerican? Only-too-American? I don't know but likely all of them Katie. It also makes me sad that these men are out there so angry & hurting with really unrealistic ideas of what others' lives are like.
*nod* unfortunatly, intersectionality and guilt by association render a lot of these blogs kinda difficult to follow too closely. You never know what group they will find some overlap with and decide that is enough to link them, or what collateral damage is acceptable since anyone who might be offended has already left the place.

On the various manosphere groups, what I find most disturbing is how often I encounter them in communities that reveal that they are in relationships. They are, if not common, at least not all that rare in BDSM and polyamory forums. Well, not the incels, but MRA/PUA/MGTOW at least show up.

(edited to add) if you ever want to see a particuarlly strange and worrying, (if comical) variant... you should check out gorians...



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#19

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri May 04, 2018 3:50 pm

neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:54 pm
voxpopuluxe wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:42 pm
It's also possible, I suppose, that Elliot Rogers suddenly made their fantasies seem possible, in much the same way that serial killings produce copycats.
Yeah, I can see that as the catalyst. Then it took I guess 3 years or so for it to finally get bad enough that they got kicked off reddit. I wonder how much of it was a change in membership or a change in their members. Rogers got them enough attention that it might have changed who joined and participated.

Years back they were less 'woman hating' and more 'poor me', mostly seeming to obsess over how SSI should include prostitution or how charities should include such services in their outreach. A lot of shut in and disabled people, which almost made them too depressing to mock. In their more lucid posts they actually had some interesting things to say about the importance of intimacy on mental and physical health, and how that type of support was completely lacking in modern healthcare outside viagra prescriptions.

Today they seem more angry and affluent. Very creepy transition.
How long has "blackpilled" been a thing? That idea—nihilism, essentially—seems to mark a shift from self-pity and run-of-the-mill sexism to self-hatred and violent fantasies of revenge. I've been aware of incels for 6 or 7 years, I guess, and I have the impression that "blackpill" is a relatively new addition to the cult, but I could be mistaken about that.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#20

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 3:58 pm

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:50 pm
How long has "blackpilled" been a thing? That idea—nihilism, essentially—seems to mark a shift from self-pity and run-of-the-mill sexism to self-hatred and violent fantasies of revenge. I've been aware of incels for 6 or 7 years, I guess, and I have the impression that "blackpill" is a relatively new addition to the cult, but I could be mistaken about that.
I know it is pretty new, maybe a few years, but am not sure beyond that. In any movement there are always people who, as various deadlines and prophecies fail to produce the revolution they want end up just sorta giving up, but I have no idea when redpill got enough of them to really branch off into their own thing.

Might even line up with trump since I think a lot of people hoped that once he was in office everything would change for them.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#21

Post by vic » Fri May 04, 2018 4:30 pm

Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:27 pm
There are very few non-americans on this forum. Honestly - does anyone of those has ever heard of these people in his homecountry ? Me - not.
There are actually many non-americans on this forum.

And the question isn't whether "these people" have been heard of, it is what the acronyms stand for in the context in which they were used. I've seen the acronym MRA, but not the other two. I've heard the description "pickup artists", but not "Men going their own way".



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#22

Post by That Eurojerk » Fri May 04, 2018 4:48 pm

vic wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:30 pm
Carl von Ossietsky wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:27 pm
There are very few non-americans on this forum. Honestly - does anyone of those has ever heard of these people in his homecountry ? Me - not.
There are actually many non-americans on this forum.

And the question isn't whether "these people" have been heard of, it is what the acronyms stand for in the context in which they were used. I've seen the acronym MRA, but not the other two. I've heard the description "pickup artists", but not "Men going their own way".
Active non-americans on this forum are less than 10 and more like 5, I guess. (I could give you their screen-names). "These people " - misogynists and proud of it. I never met one in my life (never had much contact with religious people, though). None of the homosexual males that I know are misogynists. Quite the contrary.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#23

Post by HilltownGrrl » Fri May 04, 2018 6:50 pm

neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:41 pm
(edited to add) if you ever want to see a particuarlly strange and worrying, (if comical) variant... you should check out gorians...
I am intrigued yet terrified to google that :rotflmao:

And I will but after that ass of a judge on the Manafort case today, I'm trying to do happy little things & not stress myself out. Gorians will go on my to do next week list.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#24

Post by neeneko » Fri May 04, 2018 7:03 pm

HilltownGrrl wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 6:50 pm
neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:41 pm
(edited to add) if you ever want to see a particuarlly strange and worrying, (if comical) variant... you should check out gorians...
I am intrigued yet terrified to google that :rotflmao:
Well, if one wants to get a feel for gor without actually suffering through its followers, there is a nice parody :

http://www.rdrop.com/~wyvern/data/houseplants.html

The actual philosophy and rhetoric of the community is a whole extra level of creepy, esp when it comes to the trans contingent.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#25

Post by HilltownGrrl » Fri May 04, 2018 7:22 pm

neeneko wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 7:03 pm

Well, if one wants to get a feel for gor without actually suffering through its followers, there is a nice parody :

http://www.rdrop.com/~wyvern/data/houseplants.html

The actual philosophy and rhetoric of the community is a whole extra level of creepy, esp when it comes to the trans contingent.
Thanks! I'll take a gander at it tomorrow


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