Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#76

Post by kate520 » Tue May 08, 2018 3:32 pm

Hilltowngrrl, me, also. Worked in bookstores libraries or for publishers for the first half of my life. I didn’t know the Gor books were misogynistic or kinky, I never read them and, as RV says, both men and women sf nerds bought them.
Off Topic
The book I most recommended when people came in looking for a good, long story was John
Hersey’s White Lotus. No one ever came back and said meh. They wanted more Hersey. 🤗


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#77

Post by HilltownGrrl » Tue May 08, 2018 6:21 pm

kate520 wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 3:32 pm
Hilltowngrrl, me, also. Worked in bookstores libraries or for publishers for the first half of my life. I didn’t know the Gor books were misogynistic or kinky, I never read them and, as RV says, both men and women sf nerds bought them.
Off Topic
The book I most recommended when people came in looking for a good, long story was John
Hersey’s White Lotus. No one ever came back and said meh. They wanted more Hersey. 🤗
Off Topic
We must be twins - after I worked at the bookstore (I was a buyer - best.job.ever, too bad about the toxic owner), I worked at a library as their continuing education specialist (it was a regional library that worked with local libraries). But I haven't worked in publishing, though I have several friends who do (for Penguin Random, Houghton Mifflin, & a few others) but I do work with a non-fiction author & have dealt with his publisher quite often (including having to call Nan Talese directly about something or other that he needed-I was pretty darn awestruck inside, though I'm pretty sure I was very professional on the outside). I've never heard of John Hersey's White Lotus but will look for it. No guarantees I'll read it - I've been really struggling to find books that suck me in since the election. I can't seem to disappear into books much anymore & it's really painful to be stuck out here in the real world all the time without a break.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#78

Post by Volkonski » Tue May 08, 2018 7:07 pm

Humans have long been excited by the idea of "bad boys". Look at how many music groups use "bad boys" in their name. Humphrey Bogart, James Cagney, James Dean, Edward G. Robinson and so many other actors became famous in that type of role.



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I sometimes wonder if part of this was hardwired into our psyches by evolution during the times when survival often depended on one being able to physically overcome other humans. Women who favored strong violent men and were able to establish a relationship with such a man would have been more likely to survive and pass on their DNA.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#79

Post by DejaMoo » Tue May 08, 2018 7:40 pm

Confused About Successful Jerks? Get to Know the Dark Triad
... The Dark Triad is a term used in psychology to describe three aversive yet functional (subclinical) personality traits—narcissism, Machiavellianism, and psychopathy. Narcissism consists of dominance motivation, a sense of entitlement, and perceived superiority combined with intolerance to criticism. Machiavellianism includes facile social charm, deceitful behavior aimed at undermining others, and a reliance on manipulation. Psychopathy shows itself in low or absent empathy, high impulsivity, heartless social attitudes, and interpersonal hostility. Taken together, the most powerful tendency underlying all three Dark Triad traits is a knack for exploiting others.

...Dark Triad traits are associated with problems including unethical behavior, white-collar crime, lying, deception, and cyber-aggression.

In a recent review of the literature (2013), Adrian Furnham and colleagues note: “All three of the Dark Triad admit prejudice against immigrants and, more generally, proclaim a social dominance orientation…All three are rated high in ruthless self-advancement.” While they positively correlate with one another, each of the three Dark Triad traits also predicts different, specific behavioral tendencies. For example, Machiavellians are more likely to plagiarize essays and avoid risky bets; narcissists tend to be aggressive after an ego threat; and psychopaths bully others and are more likely to carry out revenge fantasies.

More recently (2016), Andrew Harrison at the Cincinnati University College of Business, and colleagues James Summers and Brian Mennecke of Iowa State, evaluated the effects of the dark triad on fraud intentions and behaviors. They concluded, “Psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and narcissism affect different parts of the unethical decision-making process. Narcissism motivates individuals to act unethically for their personal benefit and changes their perceptions of their abilities to successfully commit fraud. Machiavellianism motivates individuals not only to act unethically, but also alters perceptions about the opportunities that exist to deceive others. Psychopathy has a prominent effect on how individuals rationalize their fraudulent behaviors. Accordingly, we find that the Dark Triad elements act in concert as powerful psychological antecedents to fraud behaviors.”



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#80

Post by Addie » Wed May 09, 2018 8:07 am

Politico Mag: How ‘Incel’ Got Hijacked

What started as an empathetic term became a rallying point for violent men. Here’s what the word’s coiner wants to do about it.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#81

Post by neeneko » Wed May 09, 2018 9:25 am

Addie wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:07 am
Politico Mag: How ‘Incel’ Got Hijacked

What started as an empathetic term became a rallying point for violent men. Here’s what the word’s coiner wants to do about it.
There is a rather fascinating support problem involved here.

Depending on where they bring them up, you get two basic responses to men talking about their frustration and anxiety when it comes to gender stuff. Either the conversation jumps 'be quiet, you are probably a terrible person and why does talking about your feelings have to be about you?' or 'we support you, now here are all the ways that women and minorities are responsible for your problems'.

The support structures for men tend to really suck, and the ones that spring up to fill the void tend to self select for toxicity, which often means that men not into that rhetoric end up just staying quiet and feel unsafe everywhere, which can mean becoming more toxic themselves over time. Which I think is what happened with incels. Once you admit that kind of vulnerability, you become a target for everyone who wants to demonstrate to the world that they are not like you, so instead of support they got mockery, and banded together, and got increasingly isolated and angry for it... then started living up to the monstrous image everyone told them they were.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#82

Post by RoadScholar » Wed May 09, 2018 9:31 am

My responses fell into neither of those two categories.

I'm just sayin'.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#83

Post by neeneko » Wed May 09, 2018 9:39 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:31 am
My responses fell into neither of those two categories.

I'm just sayin'.
Fogbow tends to be a lot more even handed than most sites, one gets more useful discussion here than in general. It is not unusual for small well moderated communities to buck the trend, but exceptions do not shape the path of larger problems. It is kinda like highlighted magnet schools for the gifted when talking about wider public education problems. Good case studies that can be learned from, but not representative.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#84

Post by Bill_G » Wed May 09, 2018 10:04 am

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 3:12 pm
RV, thanks for sharing. My two cents, FWIW, is that is all learned behavior. I've seen too much of it and watched it happening. The beneficiaries are usually not willing to change because it is in their favor no to.
My two cents is it has a physiological foundation with environmental modifiers. The existence of the dangerous "lone wolf" has been documented for a long time. Internet message boards allow them to self identify, and radicalize adding another wrinkle.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#85

Post by kate520 » Wed May 09, 2018 12:46 pm

I’m not sure why it’s so hard for we Americans to see what others, outside, do about certain toxic elements of our culture. The Second Amendment has much to do with the more masculine toxicities, IMHO. Women have always been treated as second class here, even when they saved our economic bacon during WWII - they were unceremoniously led back to the kitchens and told to sit, stay. Modern feminism rooted there. The conservative “revolution” led by St. Ronnie, horrified by the sight of a whole culture that has realized the culture they live in is not the final word, that they are no longer controlled by captains and titans and we all have a say in our own daily destiny. Policies that used to be sneered at as women’s concerns, not worthy of a great man’s time, are revealed as the concerns of us all. A certain class of men don’t get that. Exhibit A: Cheetolini. Exhibit B: InCells.

A certain class of men in this country have been scrambling ever since the 70s to put us back into the kitchen. The most toxic of them, those who inhabit the Dark Triad*, clawed their way to the top of their fields because they have no concerns other than what enriches them. Hurting people on your way up was just the way it’s done, a sign of your hunger and drive**. Now these business types are in government. :eek2: , trying once again to put everyone, not just women, back in their places. Because they know best. Trust them.

But women have been wising up. Most of us see. We know, and don’t understand. How do men think they’re all that? Have you ever raised a boy? They aren’t, not until society clues them in. And that’s where we get in trouble. Because our society is toxic. Macho, competitive, sullen, angry. How did we get here? Why can’t we change it?

My answer: The Conservative “Revolution”. As always, YMMV.

* Thanks for that article, dejamoo.
**Did anyone else think Melania’s ‘Be Best’ smacked of competitive superiority? I’ll bet a million dollars Donald inserted that into her brain.

ETA a few things. Also, this is what Drumpf is attempting, isolating the US from its usual allies, destroying the economy so that he can be the only one who can fix it. Forever. Or at least until his coronary artery becomes too occluded with beef fat to sustain his existence.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#86

Post by RVInit » Wed May 09, 2018 3:23 pm

kate520 wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 12:46 pm
:snippity:
My answer: The Conservative “Revolution”. As always, YMMV.

* Thanks for that article, dejamoo.
**Did anyone else think Melania’s ‘Be Best’ smacked of competitive superiority? I’ll bet a million dollars Donald inserted that into her brain.

ETA a few things. Also, this is what Drumpf is attempting, isolating the US from its usual allies, destroying the economy so that he can be the only one who can fix it. Forever. Or at least until his coronary artery becomes too occluded with beef fat to sustain his existence.
This.
Off Topic
Also - here is part of what I posted in the FLOTUS 45 thread after Melania's big "Be Best" reveal
In spite of all the crap we hear about her speaking five languages, she can't even come up with a speech in one of those languages without plagiarizing from Michelle Obama. Now, she's basically taken Michelle Obama's ideas and tried to make them sound bigger and better. Gosh, wonder where she gets that from.
So yeah, at least one person thought "Be Best" smacked of competitive superiority.

:lol:

OK, back to topic now... :mrgreen:


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#87

Post by Flatpointhigh » Wed May 09, 2018 4:04 pm

Bill_G wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 7:01 am
Suranis wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:07 am
Sorry guys.
No apology necessary. Thank you for being open.
Indeed. It takes a lot of courage to open up about something so personal.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#88

Post by Suranis » Thu May 10, 2018 6:12 pm

Ok I heard this today and I thought it fit this thread... (no it does not mean anything that they are both women other than the fact that they are awesome)



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#89

Post by Bill_G » Thu May 10, 2018 6:36 pm

Suranis wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 6:12 pm
Ok I heard this today and I thought it fit this thread... (no it does not mean anything that they are both women other than the fact that they are awesome)

The trumpet solo was brilliant! High marks both of them.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#90

Post by DejaMoo » Thu May 10, 2018 7:50 pm

"You're sort of everything I've ever wanted
You're not perfect, but I love you anyhow
You're the woman that I've always dreamed of
--Well, not really, but you're good enough for now."




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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#91

Post by Addie » Fri May 11, 2018 1:55 pm

Macleans: The hidden crisis that’s fuelling the ‘incel rebellion’

What began as toxic culture in fringe spaces has metastasized into ideologies of violence, fuelled by the way men are socialized—and ideas like ‘sex redistribution’ won’t help ...

Rather than a substantial conversation about the crisis of angry and disaffected young white men turning to mass violence, two general outlooks have emerged. One of them is the shoulder-shrugging belief that there really is nothing to be done: As long as they haven’t grown beards and claimed affiliation with religious extremists, they are merely weirdos and psychopaths who will glom on to any irrational reason to act on their violent impulses. Another, which stems from the deeply pathological belief that the path to manhood is tread through a woman’s loins, is that inceldom can be cured by getting these wayward young men laid. And this belief, which a generation ago would have been reduced to the notion that “hiring a prostitute” could solve the incel problem, has recently transformed into a truly dystopian notion that “sex redistribution” could perhaps be an answer.

But here’s what’s being missed in the conversation: the men who call themselves “incels,” and the broader internet sphere of men who cluster their identities around having been done wrong by women, are not interested in mere sexual companionship. Their loneliness, angst, and the feeling of lost power are a pitiable cover story to a problem with white male subcultures that reaches back several years and into some of the darkest corners of the internet. What began as unchecked toxic culture in fringe websites and forums has metastasized into varying ideologies of self-perpetuating hatred and violence. Ignoring this toxic culture—or brushing it off with pat or ridiculous answers—would be a mistake.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#92

Post by Hercule Parrot » Fri May 11, 2018 4:27 pm

Suranis wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 12:07 am
Sorry guys.
Sorry for what, Suranis? You're a good person who is lonely-hearted and frustrated. We should accept and empathise with that, as your personal experience. We should not speculate that your singleness is connected, caused or deserved through your gender, ethnicity or faith. :bighug:



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#93

Post by Addie » Tue May 15, 2018 4:24 pm

The New Yorker
The Rage of the Incels

Incels aren’t really looking for sex. They’re looking for absolute male supremacy. ...


Several distinct cultural changes have created a situation in which many men who hate women do not have the access to women’s bodies that they would have had in an earlier era. The sexual revolution urged women to seek liberation. The self-esteem movement taught women that they were valuable beyond what convention might dictate. The rise of mainstream feminism gave women certainty and company in these convictions. And the Internet-enabled efficiency of today’s sexual marketplace allowed people to find potential sexual partners with a minimum of barriers and restraints. Most American women now grow up understanding that they can and should choose who they want to have sex with.

In the past few years, a subset of straight men calling themselves “incels” have constructed a violent political ideology around the injustice of young, beautiful women refusing to have sex with them. These men often subscribe to notions of white supremacy. They are, by their own judgment, mostly unattractive and socially inept. (They frequently call themselves “subhuman.”) They’re also diabolically misogynistic. “Society has become a place for worship of females and it’s so fucking wrong, they’re not Gods they are just a fucking cum-dumpster,” a typical rant on an incel message board reads. The idea that this misogyny is the real root of their failures with women does not appear to have occurred to them.

The incel ideology has already inspired the murders of at least sixteen people. Elliot Rodger, in 2014, in Isla Vista, California, killed six and injured fourteen in an attempt to instigate a “War on Women” for “depriving me of sex.” (He then killed himself.) Alek Minassian killed ten people and injured sixteen, in Toronto, last month; prior to doing so, he wrote, on Facebook, “The Incel Rebellion has already begun!” You might also include Christopher Harper-Mercer, who killed nine people, in 2015, and left behind a manifesto that praised Rodger and lamented his own virginity.

The label that Minassian and others have adopted has entered the mainstream, and it is now being widely misinterpreted. Incel stands for “involuntarily celibate,” but there are many people who would like to have sex and do not. (The term was coined by a homosexual Canadian woman, in the nineties.) Incels aren’t really looking for sex; they’re looking for absolute male supremacy. Sex, defined to them as dominion over female bodies, is just their preferred sort of proof.

If what incels wanted was sex, they might, for instance, value sex workers and wish to legalize sex work. But incels, being violent misogynists, often express extreme disgust at the idea of “whores.” Incels tend to direct hatred at things they think they desire; they are obsessed with female beauty but despise makeup as a form of fraud. Incel culture advises men to “looksmaxx” or “statusmaxx”—to improve their appearance, to make more money—in a way that presumes that women are not potential partners or worthy objects of possible affection but inconveniently sentient bodies that must be claimed through cold strategy. (They assume that men who treat women more respectfully are “white-knighting,” putting on a mockable façade of chivalry.) When these tactics fail, as they are bound to do, the rage intensifies. Incels dream of beheading the sluts who wear short shorts but don’t want to be groped by strangers; they draw up elaborate scenarios in which women are auctioned off at age eighteen to the highest bidder; they call Elliot Rodger their Lord and Savior and feminists the female K.K.K. “Women are the ultimate cause of our suffering,” one poster on incels.me wrote recently. “They are the ones who have UNJUSTLY made our lives a living hell… We need to focus more on our hatred of women. Hatred is power.”


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#94

Post by Whatever4 » Wed May 16, 2018 7:48 am

Wow. Thanks Addie, I clicked through and read the whole article. And Wow.

When did we enter Bizarro World? Clearly there’s a serious glitch in the Matrix.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#95

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri May 18, 2018 3:50 pm

Jordan Peterson, Custodian of the Patriarchy, NYT

Apropos of this topic, Nellie Bowles's profile of the Canadian guru Jordan Peterson is worth a read, partly because it's hilariously—frighteningly—insane in places—
Mr. Peterson illustrates his arguments with copious references to ancient myths — bringing up stories of witches, biblical allegories and ancient traditions. I ask why these old stories should guide us today.

“It makes sense that a witch lives in a swamp. Yeah,” he says. “Why?”

It’s a hard one.

“Right. That’s right. You don’t know. It’s because those things hang together at a very deep level. Right. Yeah. And it makes sense that an old king lives in a desiccated tower.”

But witches don’t exist, and they don’t live in swamps, I say.

“Yeah, they do. They do exist. They just don’t exist the way you think they exist. They certainly exist. You may say well dragons don’t exist. It’s, like, yes they do — the category predator and the category dragon are the same category. It absolutely exists. It’s a superordinate category. It exists absolutely more than anything else. In fact, it really exists. What exists is not obvious. You say, ‘Well, there’s no such thing as witches.’ Yeah, I know what you mean, but that isn’t what you think when you go see a movie about them. You can’t help but fall into these categories. There’s no escape from them.”
—and partly because Peterson is an only slightly more philosophical Incel himself
Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married.

“[Alek Minassian] was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”

Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#96

Post by Hercule Parrot » Fri May 18, 2018 5:48 pm

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:50 pm
Jordan Peterson, Custodian of the Patriarchy, NYT

Apropos of this topic, Nellie Bowles's profile of the Canadian guru Jordan Peterson is worth a read, partly because it's hilariously—frighteningly—insane in places—....
I thought it was a crude hatchet-job, from the title onwards. A lot of selective quoting and wilful dishonesty. For example.....

Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married. “He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.” Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end

This is a gross misrepresentation of Peterson's position. He has never called for legislation to enforce monogamy, in fact he tends to be very critical of any attempt to impose social norms by edict. He is perhaps most notorious for his overwrought objections to enforced 'PC' terminology in academia.

I don't really understand the love/hate polarisation around Peterson. I read most of his 12 Rules book, thought it was interesting and thought provoking but not so much that I cared to read the last few chapters. He does a good "pull yourself together, take responsibility and earn respect" motif for young men, but a bit too much Jungian mythology & archetype for my tastes. I don't worship or despise him, he does not symbolise anything for me. Unfortunately most of the writing about him is either embarrassing hero worship or contrived slander.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#97

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri May 18, 2018 6:17 pm

Dunno. Unless the reporter made up Peterson’s quotes in this piece, he’s clearly endorsing “enforced monogamy” here (tho he’s clever or naive enough not to say precisely how he thinks it should be enforced). And he’s clearly advocating for the “redistribution” of sex (tho, again, he’s not willing or able to say how he would accomplish that). So either the reporter’s made up the quotes, or Peterson said something he doesn’t really believe, or he’s said something he does believe, even if he’s said something different elsewhere. It’s one of the three.

Myself, I find Peterson as fascinating a scam artist as all the other weirdos this forum follows.


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#98

Post by listeme » Fri May 18, 2018 6:30 pm

I'm curious what other types of enforcement Mr. Peterson could have in mind, other than law.

Societal enforcement = law. No? What else could he mean by enforced monogamy?


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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#99

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Fri May 18, 2018 6:56 pm

listeme wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:30 pm

Societal enforcement = law. No? What else could he mean by enforced monogamy?
The first thing that came to my mind (being Catholic and all...) was religious enforcement like shunning and excommunication.



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Re: Incel Rebellion: Violent Misogyny - We've seen it all before

#100

Post by RoadScholar » Fri May 18, 2018 10:37 pm

In the modern world, sex is one of the only things that we keep steadfastly voluntary, otherwise it’s a crime. As it should be.

These goons don’t like that one bit, but I don’t see how they can change it.


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