Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1501

Post by RoadScholar »

Don't you see? She had to call the emergency police line, and tell him she's calling the cops on him in that smirking tone of voice that says "If the cops come, they'll take my side and put you in your place, boy." To not act fearful at all until making the call, then put her bargain-basement acting skills into making sure she sounded terrified... unconcerned that doing so could end very, very badly for this mild-mannered bird-watcher.

She had no choice, silly. He's blaaaack.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1502

Post by Bill_G »

neeneko wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:46 am
Danraft wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 9:53 am
My commentary is meant to be taken more generally. It is targeted to the pitchfork mentality. Seeking "justice" in this way is vile to me.
I have some very mixed feelings on this.
...
I think he did the right thing by posting her face unblurred, and I think it is great that she actually faced consequences for her potentially lethal behavior. But I also feel discomfort at the 'ha, now here is someone we actually CAN get at!' overenthusasm and hyperfocus, esp when it is just some random entitled woman with no support network as opposed to a political figure or law enforcement officer.

And I do think this is one of those systemic problems we have gotten out of the internet, with the same basic 'how do we balance this'? moral issues involved. I fully support social and professional consequences for bad behavior, and recording that behavior, and posting that behavior so it can not simply be ignored or written off. But there is a reason angry mobs tend to prefer soft targets and personally am never quite sure how to feel when they find one that is deserving like this.
Thank you for this. Absolutely excellent discussion.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1503

Post by TexasFilly »

Danraft, who made ad hominem attacks on you? I read the thread again. Don't see them.

I am troubled by your insistence that this woman should have had her identity "blurred" because her "racism is generic." What does that even mean? In fact, her racism was very specific and directed in the form of a big lie toward a particular black man. If you misbehave in public (and there are many transgressions she committed) you lose any rights to privacy or anonymity.


Don't want to get fired by Franklin Templeton? Don't act like an asshole in public, obey the law (the leash law is not a trivial matter) don't make a false (and racist) police report. Her employer made the decision this is not the type of employee they wanted. Nobody was on their doorsteps with torches and pitchforks.

Black folks in this country don't live in the same world you do. Maybe you can read some literature on this.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1504

Post by Volkonski »

NYC officials call for police probe of white woman's 911 call on black man in Central Park

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ny ... l-n1216451
Some New York City officials are urging police to launch a criminal probe into a white woman's calling 911 on a black man in Central Park and falsely reporting that he threatened her.

"We could arrest someone for pulling a fire alarm," Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams said at a news conference Wednesday. "We could surely arrest someone for attempting to destroy and burn down the life of an innocent person."

The news conference was held in the Ramble, a secluded section of Central Park popular with birdwatchers and the site of the confrontation between Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper, who are not related.

:snippity:

Adams, a retired New York Police Department captain, said he believes there should be "zero tolerance" when someone makes a racially motivated 911 call with false accusations.
Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1505

Post by TexasFilly »

:think:
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1506

Post by Bill_G »

I support this. She told a pack of lies to the 911 operator ... which we know from the video I'm having difficulty with.
Volkonski wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:39 pm
NYC officials call for police probe of white woman's 911 call on black man in Central Park

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ny ... l-n1216451
Some New York City officials are urging police to launch a criminal probe into a white woman's calling 911 on a black man in Central Park and falsely reporting that he threatened her.

"We could arrest someone for pulling a fire alarm," Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams said at a news conference Wednesday. "We could surely arrest someone for attempting to destroy and burn down the life of an innocent person."

The news conference was held in the Ramble, a secluded section of Central Park popular with birdwatchers and the site of the confrontation between Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper, who are not related.

:snippity:

Adams, a retired New York Police Department captain, said he believes there should be "zero tolerance" when someone makes a racially motivated 911 call with false accusations.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1507

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Bill_G wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:43 pm
I support this. She told a pack of lies to the 911 operator ... which we know from the video I'm having difficulty with.
Volkonski wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:39 pm
NYC officials call for police probe of white woman's 911 call on black man in Central Park

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ny ... l-n1216451
Some New York City officials are urging police to launch a criminal probe into a white woman's calling 911 on a black man in Central Park and falsely reporting that he threatened her.

"We could arrest someone for pulling a fire alarm," Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams said at a news conference Wednesday. "We could surely arrest someone for attempting to destroy and burn down the life of an innocent person."

The news conference was held in the Ramble, a secluded section of Central Park popular with birdwatchers and the site of the confrontation between Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper, who are not related.

:snippity:

Adams, a retired New York Police Department captain, said he believes there should be "zero tolerance" when someone makes a racially motivated 911 call with false accusations.
Wait! I thought you said he pulled a "gun" on her -- his smart phone's camera. What changed?

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1508

Post by Foggy »

Yeah, once the pack has decided to attack, you can't even agree with them any more. :sick:
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1509

Post by RoadScholar »

I will literally never get over that incident where a young black man was shopping (at Walmart?) in the toy department for a birthday present for his nephew or something, and was looking at a TOY GUN. A white shopper called the cops to report a scary-looking black man waving a gun around in the store. And when the cops got there, they SHOT THE MAN DEAD.

If anyone doesn't get how serious what this woman did was, you are deplorable. And that's an edit.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1510

Post by Bill_G »

Foggy wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:28 pm
Yeah, once the pack has decided to attack, you can't even agree with them any more. :sick:
(chortle) It's mob mentality on full display. For a bunch of people who are supposed to be interested in critical thinking, they spend way too much time on the critical part.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1511

Post by Foggy »

Yes, and it's time to stop talking about the actual event and instead start attacking other members of the forum. Because if your cause is holy, you can just ignore the rules.

I'm seriously thinking about shutting down the forum. I can't stand trying to enforce the rules any more, and nobody gives a fuck about them anyway.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1512

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

Foggy wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:53 pm
Yes, and it's time to stop talking about the actual event and instead start attacking other members of the forum. Because if your cause is holy, you can just ignore the rules.

I'm seriously thinking about shutting down the forum. I can't stand trying to enforce the rules any more, and nobody gives a fuck about them anyway.
I can understand your frustration, but I hope you don't shut this down.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1513

Post by Bill_G »

+1

Apologizes to anyone I offended. Just exploring ideas.
Thanks to those who could explore them with me with their constructive counter arguments.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1514

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Let's stick to the facts. Christian Cooper was guilty of nothing more than recording an event on his smart phone's camera. It wasn't a gun.

Amy Cooper then made a false emergency report to the cops, claiming Mr. Cooper was threatening her. It led to a police response. We know that black men the subject of police responses are often at risk.

I find Ms. Cooper's conduct reprehensible and racist. After all, Mr. Cooper was not pointing a gun at Ms. Cooper. He was merely recording a law breaker who was too entitled to comply with New York City's leash laws.

So I am not sympathetic when this racist was fired by Franklin Templeton. Being a racist is not a protected class and it's best for employers to weed them out and terminate their employment.

(As a dog lover I also winced as Ms. Cooper dragged her dog by the neck rather than leashing him up. I would have found that to be a firing offense.)

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1515

Post by Danraft »

I get it. We disagree.

But (you knew there was a "but"- haha), some (perhaps rightly) think the way to analyze this is by observing that these two people are of different races. I look at it as they are both human.

"Woke" culture picks up on the abuses as if race is all that matters. What if she came across a stereotypical Appalachian birdwatcher (looking the part of of a character in Deliverance), and she called 911 and lied about feeling threatened by a "purdy-mouthed" inbred banjo player?

Would it matter the same way to you? She lied on an emergency call which could make some whitewater-loving law enforcement officer shoot an innocent hayseed. (Uggh... On second thought, any attempt at levity will likely be unappreciated).

"Justice is as much a matter of fashion as of charm."-Pascal
Disproportionately punishing one person because it fits the current zeitgeist is always inhumane. As a thought experiment, take race out of the picture and demand human and humane justice.



Maybe it will, maybe it won't.

Note: I see from posts as I typed that she being charged... Good.
TexasFilly wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:27 pm
Danraft, who made ad hominem attacks on you? I read the thread again. Don't see them.

I am troubled by your insistence that this woman should have had her identity "blurred" because her "racism is generic." What does that even mean? In fact, her racism was very specific and directed in the form of a big lie toward a particular black man. If you misbehave in public (and there are many transgressions she committed) you lose any rights to privacy or anonymity.


Don't want to get fired by Franklin Templeton? Don't act like an asshole in public, obey the law (the leash law is not a trivial matter) don't make a false (and racist) police report. Her employer made the decision this is not the type of employee they wanted. Nobody was on their doorsteps with torches and pitchforks.

Black folks in this country don't live in the same world you do. Maybe you can read some literature on this.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1516

Post by TexasFilly »

If unarmed inbred banjo players were enslaved for 250 years and routinely getting murdered by the police you might have an argument there.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1517

Post by p0rtia »

Foggy wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:28 pm
Yeah, once the pack has decided to attack, you can't even agree with them any more. :sick:
:bighug: :(
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1518

Post by Whatever4 »

Danraft wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:31 pm
I get it. We disagree.

But (you knew there was a "but"- haha), some (perhaps rightly) think the way to analyze this is by observing that these two people are of different races. I look at it as they are both human.

"Woke" culture picks up on the abuses as if race is all that matters. What if she came across a stereotypical Appalachian birdwatcher (looking the part of of a character in Deliverance), and she called 911 and lied about feeling threatened by a "purdy-mouthed" inbred banjo player?

Would it matter the same way to you? She lied on an emergency call which could make some whitewater-loving law enforcement officer shoot an innocent hayseed. (Uggh... On second thought, any attempt at levity will likely be unappreciated).

"Justice is as much a matter of fashion as of charm."-Pascal
Disproportionately punishing one person because it fits the current zeitgeist is always inhumane. As a thought experiment, take race out of the picture and demand human and humane justice.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
She didn’t say hillbilly, or Asian, or Italian, or anything else. She didn’t even have to use a descriptor. She used a coded phrase that she knew the dispatcher would understand that she was a white woman afraid of and being attacked by a black man. She was clearly angry at him. She didn’t want an officer to come and arbitrate the situation.. She wanted an officer to come and be on her side, to punish the man.

Literally no other description would get the reaction she wanted, unless she mentioned a weapon. Homeless person? Mexican? Nope. Hillbilly might get a joke from dispatch to the patrol. I can’t imagine she’d say a white man, and I doubt she’d want him punished with such fury.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1519

Post by Patagoniagirl »

Agreed, W4. Spot on.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1520

Post by Whatever4 »

One more thing, Danraft. You want to examine the incident without race. That’s impossible because SHE brought it into the situation. There’s plenty of public interactions where such an examination might prove helpful. This isn’t one.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1521

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Whatever4 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 6:54 pm
Danraft wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 4:31 pm
I get it. We disagree.

But (you knew there was a "but"- haha), some (perhaps rightly) think the way to analyze this is by observing that these two people are of different races. I look at it as they are both human.

"Woke" culture picks up on the abuses as if race is all that matters. What if she came across a stereotypical Appalachian birdwatcher (looking the part of of a character in Deliverance), and she called 911 and lied about feeling threatened by a "purdy-mouthed" inbred banjo player?

Would it matter the same way to you? She lied on an emergency call which could make some whitewater-loving law enforcement officer shoot an innocent hayseed. (Uggh... On second thought, any attempt at levity will likely be unappreciated).

"Justice is as much a matter of fashion as of charm."-Pascal
Disproportionately punishing one person because it fits the current zeitgeist is always inhumane. As a thought experiment, take race out of the picture and demand human and humane justice.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.
She didn’t say hillbilly, or Asian, or Italian, or anything else. She didn’t even have to use a descriptor. She used a coded phrase that she knew the dispatcher would understand that she was a white woman afraid of and being attacked by a black man. She was clearly angry at him. She didn’t want an officer to come and arbitrate the situation.. She wanted an officer to come and be on her side, to punish the man.

Literally no other description would get the reaction she wanted, unless she mentioned a weapon. Homeless person? Mexican? Nope. Hillbilly might get a joke from dispatch to the patrol. I can’t imagine she’d say a white man, and I doubt she’d want him punished with such fury.
:like:

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1522

Post by SLQ »

Foggy wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:53 pm
Yes, and it's time to stop talking about the actual event and instead start attacking other members of the forum. Because if your cause is holy, you can just ignore the rules.

I'm seriously thinking about shutting down the forum. I can't stand trying to enforce the rules any more, and [highlight]nobody gives a fuck about them anyway.[/highlight]
While I agree that there appear to be violations of the rules, this seems to be an overgeneralization. There should be consequences for the offenders, not the rest of the folk.
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1523

Post by Foggy »

You are absolutely right, SLQ. I'm not going to shut down the forum because of a few people who are essentially telling me that I can just go fuck myself with my stupid rule. That wouldn't bother them much - an asshole can easily be an asshole on some other website.

But the many, many decent people who are members here, and who have the minimum amount of self-control to just ignore it when people say something with which they strongly disagree (or even better, calmly explain why they disagree without insults) - they don't have a lot of other sites like this one where the rule is, Don't make personal attacks on your fellow members of the forum - even if you feel strongly about it.

Those decent people would be hurt more without Fogbow than the self-righteous, self-appointed political commissars who think the rule doesn't apply to them.

So, yeah, it's time to just start deleting the personal insults again, without notice. I've been trying to keep the peace here for more than 11 years, and yes it gets frustrating. But it's really just a few chronic violators who are so privileged and special that they think the rule doesn't apply to them.

I love W4's post and agree with every word. Amazing, isn't it? She managed to make her points calmly and with rational thoughts, instead of calling people names and denigrating them. I'm in the group that thinks Mr. Cooper did nothing wrong and that the lady was being a racist bitch (and that she abused her dog on top of everything else), but if other people have a different opinion they can express their opinion here without being attacked by me and without having to apologize to anyone.

And if other people do attack them, those people are going to be missing some of their posts. From here on out, I'm going to kick ass and chew bubble gum, but I'm not asking Amazon to bring me any bubble gum.

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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1524

Post by Whatever4 »

Aw, Boss, thanks. :oops:
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1525

Post by Danraft »

W4, I pretty much agree...she was a racist idiot.

More importantly, as I think was pointed out upthread, in court testimony this type of 911 call is played, and the obvious "distress" in the caller's voice is emphasized as proof that the caller was in real fear for their life.

However, in this case, we have the video of the woman intentionally trying to sound as if she is being attacked.

That's horrendous, but also calls into question whether the other calls( in other cases) falsely amplified duress. In that light, perhaps she deserves all that comes to her.

I'm just saying I am hesitant to justify crowdsourcing justice (in general, as I tried to make clear in my first post on this topic).

I don't claim to have the answers, or know where (if anywhere) the line is.

Foggy, don't think Mr Cooper did anything illegal. I don't even think believe he did anything truly wrong.

However, by his own statements he was much more cognizant of what was happening. He used dog treats to make people uncomfortable enough (because their dog went to a total stranger) to leash their dog. Apparently, it happened often enough that he was prepared for that event. So, that isn't the "high crime" suitable for doxxing.

It was, as was stated, her seeking awareness/belief, that because she was white and he wasn't, she had the upper hand. He warned her that she wouldn't like what happened if she continued the behavior. What does that warning mean? To me, it means he had considered (or quickly ad hoc considered) the public shaming he was going to inflict. Is that wrong for him to knowingly do?

Nope. I don't think so. It's his decision to make, and I am not him and haven't been in that identical situation. As many point out, perhaps my life experience precludes me to make an assessment that "blurring" her face would be better. I do strongly feel that way.

No. She doesn't technically have any expectation of privacy. But, what is privacy? In a big city, privacy is odd. It is given by not making eye contact with those you are in close contact with. Letting them have their bubble. "Not engaging" is an unspoken rule. A person on a walking/jogging path having a private moment with their dog ain't expecting any interaction. To be clear, she showed: little grace; great amounts of entitlement; racism; and reckless endangering by lying on a 911 call. But, is that a normal view of her? Did she just experience a death of a loved one? Etc. I've seen people, my own mother a day after my father's passing, say very hurtful things that is not a normal measure of who they are as human beings.

And, "social justice", for all its power and ability to accomplish what normal legal mechanisms cannot do, tends to judge a person as a human being, based on one interaction.
From what I've read, quite a few people have said Mother Theresa was a b*tch(not comparing the situation, just that being a perfect warm fuzzy person all the time is hard even for those most altruistic of us).
I've been known to say some pretty nasty things about a person's intelligence (and who knows what) while driving in bad traffic (and with low blood sugar). I would have made a sailor blush. Is it fair to judge someone so harshly? And, if so, are there any exceptions?

I suppose this discussion has softened my views (as originally stated) and helped me see and accept other valid viewpoints. That's good... I hope to be a better person every day.

I accept that perhaps no one else agrees with me that the severity of the endpoint that she arrived at may be too harsh. "May be" does a lot of work there. She could have the darkest soul and deserve even more. But, IMHO, from this one interaction I don't feel we are suffiently certain.

Life goes on. We can't all be in agreement.
:bighug:

Whatever4 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:00 pm
One more thing, Danraft. You want to examine the incident without race. That’s impossible because SHE brought it into the situation. There’s plenty of public interactions where such an examination might prove helpful. This isn’t one.
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