Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

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RoadScholar
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1476

Post by RoadScholar »

That viral video circulating of a white woman calling the police on a black man in New York’s Central Park on Monday was sadly all too familiar. The privilege that the woman in the video sought to weaponize with her 911 call is real — and the system that enables it is overdue for reform.

As a public defender in Manhattan for more than a decade, I have represented many people in similar situations. Most of their stories have followed a similar pattern: A white person calls the police on a black man. The police arrive and take the side of his white accuser, refusing to believe his version of events. He is arrested and arraigned.

Of course, all of this assumes the police don’t show up and deliver the death sentence on the spot.

In cases I’ve taken to trial, the district attorney has offered recordings of “hysterical 911 calls” as evidence of my clients’ guilt, urging the jury to “just listen to the fear in her voice,” saying, “You can tell she can sense a threat,” and asking questions such as, “Why would she lie?” All too often, it works.

Usually, there’s no video. On Monday, there was. You can hear “the fear” in the voice of the woman who called the police on Cooper, too.
...
A spurious accusation in a park could mean a death sentence.
---Eliza Orlins in WaPo.

That's why condoning her behavior is absolutely unacceptable. Shame on anyone doing so.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1477

Post by jmj »

neeneko wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:30 am
pipistrelle wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 am Nope. Wrong of anyone to get up in someone’s face, especially when the other person is standing still and drawing boundaries. Proof that he/she/it didn’t feel threatened by anything but their bad behavior being caught on camera. Sex/gender irrelevant.
See, I agree that it is wrong regardless, but disagree that it is somehow proof that the person either did not feel threatened or did not feel the guy had threatened their dog. It showed they were angry, and anger IS a potential response to feeling (direct or indirect) threatened, but women tend to get a lot less slack for responding with anger, and people tend to take it as 'well she could not have actually been scared/threatened, she responded with aggression!, with the possible socially acceptable 'someone threatened mama-bear's kids', which does not extend to pets.

Guess I am kinda grumpy on this one since I am kinda sensitive to pets being threatened and how that has been completely overshadowed. Her actions were beyond the pale, but that he is openly and proudly talking about how he behaved and being lauded for it reminds me way too much of birdwatchers proudly talking about poisoning cats.
The pet was threatened? Come on. Entitled pet owners who don't think laws apply to them and insist on letting their animals run loose to the detriment of everything else are a scourge. And trust me, these sorts of people almost always react with self-righteous anger when somebody asks them to actually follow the rules. I've been threatened by these types of people before for requesting they leash their dog that is tearing up the undergrowth in a national widlife refuge where off-leash dogs are stictly prohibited. I thought Mr. Cooper's approach was both harmless and clever. In addition, I've read reports that he feels quite uncomfortable with all of the anger directed at this woman, which shows that he's actually a decent man despite her behavior toward him.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1478

Post by Azastan »

TexasFilly wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 2:28 am Fun fact: Mr. Cooper, the real victim (and videographer) went to Harvard with George Conway, according to George Conway.
I'm jumping in here late, but as I am an avid birder, Mr Cooper is VERY well known, even to me, someone who lives in Washington State.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1479

Post by neeneko »

Sugar Magnolia wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:36 am You're more sensitive to the dog maybe being threatened than to it being dragged around by the collar? I'm pretty sure if I thought the guy was threatening to poison my dog with a treat I'd be getting the dog further away and not closer, but it's been a while since we had a dog so things may have changed.
Oh I've got plenty of disdain for how she treated her dog, but that is also already been well discussed and the rescue shelter has taken action.

*sigh* I have never figured out how to deal with these narratives. When you have a story of 'X's response to Y was disproportional and horrible', how can one address problems in Y's actions without it being part of a pattern to excuse X? Esp when the story crosses multiple existing fault lines?


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1480

Post by neeneko »

jmj wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 am The pet was threatened? Come on.
From his own account, he tried to get the dog to come over to him while telling the owner she was not going to like what he was about to do, and then tried to demonstrate to the owner that he could get the dog to come to him against her wishes.
I thought Mr. Cooper's approach was both harmless and clever.
It is harmless and clever after the fact. It makes a good story, but in the moment an owner has no idea what that 'you will not like this' action is going to be, or 'well see about that' when she tried to get him to stop.
In addition, I've read reports that he feels quite uncomfortable with all of the anger directed at this woman, which shows that he's actually a decent man despite her behavior toward him.
No argument there, he seems like a very decent person with good intentions.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1481

Post by pipistrelle »

Sugar Magnolia wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:56 am
Bill_G wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:50 am
RoadScholar wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:44 am This poster has some deep psychological need to prove the black guy did something wrong, and to exonerate the horrid over-privileged white woman.

“Extortionist?” WTF? Seriously, you need professional help.

Arguing from another perspective does not prove a need. But, the fact you can so quickly dehumanize me might suggest you do. :boxing:
Skirting very close to "there are good people on both sides" with that argument.
I think Bill tries to be fair, but the facts in evidence don’t support “good people on both sides” here. Leash the dog and walk away.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1482

Post by Chilidog »

Bill_G wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:11 am
Chilidog wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 4:00 am
Bill_G wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 3:33 pm I see a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right situation.

Clearly the dog doesn't do well on leash. Perhaps that's why she gave it a chance to be free. Along comes a city citizen intent on doxing her rather than walking by. In that way, he was threatening. Under that stress, she unraveled, and from there the situation did a toilet swirlie around one of the more troubling problems in the country. Total head shaker.
Are you fucking serious?

Was that supposed to be sarcasm?
In fact, yes. Using your vernacular - serious as a fucking heart attack.

I am taking the unpopular stance that two wrongs occurred here.
my stance is that you are full of it.

Theres no point in discussing this further, since you seem intent on doubling down on your obnoxious opinions.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1483

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

:yeah:


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1484

Post by Volkonski »

Hammer-wielding woman arrested after going on racist tirade, couple says
Told to go back to their country


https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... 3Dsharebar
Arturo Cordovez and his wife, Dr. Lia Franco, are natives of Ecuador who currently live in New Orleans where Lia is finishing her medical residency. In the last few months, Dr. Franco has been treating COVID-19 patients day after day. To decompress, the couple decided to spend the weekend in Houston over the Memorial Day holiday to unwind.

Sunday afternoon, they were looking for a restaurant near South Shepherd and Westheimer roads in southwest Houston, when they noticed a woman following in a car behind them.

:snippity:

“And we go what do you want?” Dr. Franco said. "And she said screamed ‘You Mexicans, get out of my F**ing country. Go back to your F**ing country.’”

The woman got out of her car, with a hammer and seemed to be threatening them with it. Before the situation escalated further, the police arrived and took her into custody.
During this she was wearing a shirt with another country's flag on it.

Image


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1485

Post by wavey davey »

Bill_G wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:19 am
pipistrelle wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 am
neeneko wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:03 am

This is where I think racism and sexism are colliding here. She is a woman, she isn't supposed to be aggressive or confrontational, she is supposed to wilt under threat and retreat. If this had been a guy, rather than a 'karen', while we would still be discussing the racist comments and misinformation being sent to the police, I am skeptical we would be casting his anger after having his dog threatened as being proof he was not scared.
Nope. Wrong of anyone to get up in someone’s face, especially when the other person is standing still and drawing boundaries. Proof that he/she/it didn’t feel threatened by anything but their bad behavior being caught on camera. Sex/gender irrelevant.
I disagree. That camera traverses any boundary, and was an active attack on her because of the social media threat it presents. You've seen the results. This destroyed her just as badly as if he had physically attacked her with a traditional weapon.

The camera is the gun.

This is another thing people seem to be missing around here. She has a right to privacy. A random guy walks up to her in the park filming her. What is not creepy and wrong about that?
No, she does not have a right to privacy when in public. It is a constitutional protected right to photograph anything that is visible from a public location. Maybe it’s creepy in a case like this, but it is legal creepiness.


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Danraft
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1486

Post by Danraft »

Meh... No one died, no one got hurt.
Oh wait, a woman's career was destroyed.
I'm just instinctually against knee-jerk "torches and pitchforks--" social "justice".

It very often gets it wrong. There are courts and legal systems. If he felt he was wronged and needed to be made whole, he could have used the legal system that is in place and has decades (if not centuries) of refinement.

Instead, a wronged person turns to social media to inflict damage.
Don't tell me that because he has "crocodile tears" of remorse about the "unforeseen" damage to this (idiot/racist) woman. He attended Harvard, is smart and well-spoken. He had pre-played this interaction in his head. He had intent to damage this woman.

Let's say he recorded her to insure that whatever made-up/fake claims (as P0rtiA points out) with her artificial "distress" on a 911 call--didnt end up with his being cuffed and charged. Great. He has the video. No charges were brought against him. Move on, right?

No. He, having essentially planned this (hell, he warned her--and had dog treats although he does not have a dog--if some unknown person lured my dog with treats-i would be very paranoid), then decided (perhaps correctly) that the over-the-top racism and Karen-type behavior deserves some social commentary.

Fine. He could have blurred her face. Free apps do this on both iTunes and Google Play store. The discussion needs to happen. Perhaps these two people could have ended up friends and laughed about this the next time they met. Not now.

My commentary is meant to be taken more generally. It is targeted to the pitchfork mentality. Seeking "justice" in this way is vile to me.


wavey davey wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:22 am
Bill_G wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:19 am
pipistrelle wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 am
Nope. Wrong of anyone to get up in someone’s face, especially when the other person is standing still and drawing boundaries. Proof that he/she/it didn’t feel threatened by anything but their bad behavior being caught on camera. Sex/gender irrelevant.
I disagree. That camera traverses any boundary, and was an active attack on her because of the social media threat it presents. You've seen the results. This destroyed her just as badly as if he had physically attacked her with a traditional weapon.

The camera is the gun.

This is another thing people seem to be missing around here. She has a right to privacy. A random guy walks up to her in the park filming her. What is not creepy and wrong about that?
No, she does not have a right to privacy when in public. It is a constitutional protected right to photograph anything that is visible from a public location. Maybe it’s creepy in a case like this, but it is legal creepiness.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1487

Post by TexasFilly »

Wow, I see some members here have no idea about white privilege in this country. Sad!


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1488

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Danraft wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:53 am Meh... No one died, no one got hurt.
Oh wait, a woman's career was destroyed.
I'm just instinctually against knee-jerk "torches and pitchforks--" social "justice".

It very often gets it wrong. There are courts and legal systems. If he felt he was wronged and needed to be made whole, he could have used the legal system that is in place and has decades (if not centuries) of refinement.

Instead, a wronged person turns to social media to inflict damage.
Don't tell me that because he has "crocodile tears" of remorse about the "unforeseen" damage to this (idiot/racist) woman. He attended Harvard, is smart and well-spoken. He had pre-played this interaction in his head. He had intent to damage this woman.

Let's say he recorded her to insure that whatever made-up/fake claims (as P0rtiA points out) with her artificial "distress" on a 911 call--didnt end up with his being cuffed and charged. Great. He has the video. No charges were brought against him. Move on, right?

No. He, having essentially planned this (hell, he warned her--and had dog treats although he does not have a dog--if some unknown person lured my dog with treats-i would be very paranoid), then decided (perhaps correctly) that the over-the-top racism and Karen-type behavior deserves some social commentary.

Fine. He could have blurred her face. Free apps do this on both iTunes and Google Play store. The discussion needs to happen. Perhaps these two people could have ended up friends and laughed about this the next time they met. Not now.

My commentary is meant to be taken more generally. It is targeted to the pitchfork mentality. Seeking "justice" in this way is vile to me.


wavey davey wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:22 am
Bill_G wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 8:19 am

I disagree. That camera traverses any boundary, and was an active attack on her because of the social media threat it presents. You've seen the results. This destroyed her just as badly as if he had physically attacked her with a traditional weapon.

The camera is the gun.

This is another thing people seem to be missing around here. She has a right to privacy. A random guy walks up to her in the park filming her. What is not creepy and wrong about that?
No, she does not have a right to privacy when in public. It is a constitutional protected right to photograph anything that is visible from a public location. Maybe it’s creepy in a case like this, but it is legal creepiness.
Yeah, because the courts and justice system always get it right when it's a black man and a white woman involved.

"Bullshit" unchallenged just festers and grows. Why should she be protected against her public words and actions? And how absolutely conceited of you to think you know what was going on in his head or what scenarios he had or had not thought about?


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1489

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

TexasFilly wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:32 am Wow, I see some members here have no idea about white privilege in this country. Sad!
Not only do they not recognize it, they defend it!


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1490

Post by Estiveo »

Sugar Magnolia wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:03 am
TexasFilly wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:32 am Wow, I see some members here have no idea about white privilege in this country. Sad!
Not only do they not recognize it, they defend it!
It's disappointing.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1491

Post by Whatever4 »

Going through the courts is expensive, time consuming, and only affects the individual. Plus how was he harmed that could be satisfied monetarily?

Posting does two things: 1. Public shaming of the individual, which I think is appropriate for racist behavior, YMMV, and 2. Adds to the public discourse about how abysmally we as a society treat black people. White people need to have our noses rubbed in our collective shit if we are ever going to get past this type of behavior.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1492

Post by neeneko »

wavey davey wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:22 am No, she does not have a right to privacy when in public. It is a constitutional protected right to photograph anything that is visible from a public location. Maybe it’s creepy in a case like this, but it is legal creepiness.
I would not even put it at a little creepy in this case.
'Creepy' would be if he were quietly filming her, or approached her while filming. In this case, starting a recording on a verbal engagement already underway? I do not think creepy really applies in the least.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1493

Post by RoadScholar »

Apparently some people are racists and don't even know it.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1494

Post by TexasFilly »

Whatever4 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 11:11 am Going through the courts is expensive, time consuming, and only affects the individual. Plus how was he harmed that could be satisfied monetarily?

Posting does two things: 1. Public shaming of the individual, which I think is appropriate for racist behavior, YMMV, and 2. Adds to the public discourse about how abysmally we as a society treat black people. White people need to have our noses rubbed in our collective shit if we are ever going to get past this type of behavior.
Yes. I guess some people would say George Floyd should've gone through the courts too.

What if the police had showed up and Mr. Cooper had not made that video? Mr. Cooper could've met the same fate as Mr. Floyd, Eric Garner, etc. It's not as if NYPD doesn't have a history...

White woman being the victim of a black man is a tale as old as time in the US of A. Perhaps some people should read a little book that Harper Lee wrote.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1495

Post by Patagoniagirl »

TexasFilly wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:32 am Wow, I see some members here have no idea about white privilege in this country. Sad!
There is some of that here. Probably more.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1496

Post by neeneko »

Danraft wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 9:53 am My commentary is meant to be taken more generally. It is targeted to the pitchfork mentality. Seeking "justice" in this way is vile to me.
I have some very mixed feelings on this.

I can think back to various court cases where the government (or lobbyists at least) wanted 'make an example' out of someone, so they would take a case of something common and utterly slam the person in order to scare others into behaving. It was a random shaft, someone unlucky enough to be the receptacle for some political group or industry's frustration at not being able to stop something wide spread. The 'we can't get all of them, but it feels REALLY good to make this person pay with insane fines or jail time' emotional high.

I see events like this one as being similar but shaped by amateurs and opportunists. The person did something wrong, and should be punished for it, but their punishment is a proxy for all those other people that are not being caught on camera, and it feels REALLY good to see a symbol of something bad actually experiencing consequences for something we know happens all the time. But that just means an individual gets a disproportionate punishment, and like most punishment it isn't going to serve as a deterrent to others. It is just like the 'tough on crime' stuff only more asymmetric.

I think he did the right thing by posting her face unblurred, and I think it is great that she actually faced consequences for her potentially lethal behavior. But I also feel discomfort at the 'ha, now here is someone we actually CAN get at!' overenthusasm and hyperfocus, esp when it is just some random entitled woman with no support network as opposed to a political figure or law enforcement officer.

And I do think this is one of those systemic problems we have gotten out of the internet, with the same basic 'how do we balance this'? moral issues involved. I fully support social and professional consequences for bad behavior, and recording that behavior, and posting that behavior so it can not simply be ignored or written off. But there is a reason angry mobs tend to prefer soft targets and personally am never quite sure how to feel when they find one that is deserving like this.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1497

Post by Danraft »

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. It certainly is a mixed bag and there isn't a perfect means of resolving issues with this many passionate tendrils.

Bringing such actions into the discussion is exactly what I recommended- I didn't say, "This is exactly how life should be and nothing happened that is not extremely troubling." She lied during a 911 call in ways that could have had severe repercussions. That is a legal basis for pursuing her and charging her with a crime. It directly addresses the main issues. Then, the minor issues of not having a dog on a leash can also be addressed as there is clear evidence of that as well. But, I cringe at not blurring her face. Why? Because the racism is generic and the discussion shouldn't get bogged down with her name, profession, personal history, etc. I feel more progress is made without those distractions. On that, we disagree.

As to the "torches and pitchforks"... I rest my case as to the difficulty of separating logic and facts from gut knee-jerk responses.

On this forum, I was accused of "white privilege" and racism even though I said her actions were "idiotic/racist" and "karen-like". It isn't that I disagree with the troubling aspects of this situation; I disagree on the best way to resolve them. The rest of the ad hominem and strawman attacks are typical of the "torches and pitchfork" that I find repugnant. Some are at ease with that behavior, I am not.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1498

Post by Patagoniagirl »

How many generations of African Americans have had to "behave" when these horrific murders happen? When there is a different justice for them than white people? When the very color of their skin means "threatening", "resisting" and evokes "I feared for my life".

When we with black boys have that "talk", after decades since MLK was murdered, the rage is there and WE know what white privilege is. We know what "justified" means. It means one for white people and one for black people. It means, and I know this first hand, that my white son could be driving a pickup truck with an expired DL, get stopped And be a smart ass to a cop in Myakka, Florida and get a ticket. But my black son, a proud and decorated veteran with a concealed carry permit and respectful attitude but a busted tail light can be ordered out of the car and put on the ground in handcuffs.

This is often the everyday experience for Ivory-Tower Law professors, teenagers carrying Skittles, a man jogging, a Price Waterhouse Cooper Associate in his own apartment, a housewife shopping at the Dollar Store.

Contrast their experiences with the bitch at Trader Joe's, the Bundy assholes, the terrorists showing up at the Capitol building in MI. Anyone paying attention can add to both lists.

A Black President and an Orange, Ignorant Shit Gibbon reveals our racist white privilege. Nothing much has changed since MLK except we now have cell-phone videos.

All Emmit Tills mother had was her disfigured boy in a coffin.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperie ... 8kMzJQc3OY


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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1499

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Bill_G wrote: "The camera is the gun."

That is an amazing statement. That's the only characterization the terms of service on this site will allow me to state, but I have a lot more adjectives I'm leaving behind.

No, Bill_G the camera is not "the gun" or "a gun." It's only because of cameras that oppressed people can protect themselves from racists.


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Re: Racism in America Becoming Fashionable Again

#1500

Post by Patagoniagirl »

I was at a peaceful protest in Bradenton, Florida after a legal Haitian immigrant who was mentally ill was shot - in the back - six times - by a police officer from 25 feet away. He had not committed any crime other than drinking in public. Public Intoxication. The officer claimed that the man was threatening him and he feared for his life.

The memorial protest was a somber walk of about 300 people from the place where the man was killed to the police station. Mister and I walked with. At the police station, the cops did the full riot gear and stance, pushing right up to and against all of us. It was clearly an attempt to inimidate and as I saw it, an attempt to aggravate and incite someone to do something stupid.

I cannot even put into words the anger and frustration rolling through the participants. The local news outlets and pontificators focused on the littering and "taunts" from the protesters, as if that was a horrible display of behavior while. Young, mentally ill man was shot in the back and killed. Murdered.

I get the burn this fucking shit down because shit hasn't changed. The "they are tearing up and burning down there own neighborhood" is just another way of saying, why don't they appreciate how good we are to them. Fuck that.


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