Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

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Piffle
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#26

Post by Piffle »

Singing, "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit für das deutsches Vaterland...". Unfortunately, I can't put an umlaut on the u in fur. --> KEFS (Korrigierte es für Sie)





Oder sollen wir duzen?




Sekrit Stuffs!
I oughta warn you about this: The use of German in posts drives raicha up the wall. If she sees this she'll smack us into next Tuesday. Jes sayin...

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magdalen77
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#27

Post by magdalen77 »

Singing, "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit für das deutsches Vaterland...". Unfortunately, I can't put an umlaut on the u in fur. --> KEFS (Korrigierte es für Sie)





Oder sollen wir duzen?




Sekrit Stuffs!
I oughta warn you about this: The use of German in posts drives raicha up the wall. If she sees t she'll smack us into next Tuesday. Jes sayin...
Ja, konnen wir. (Again no umlaut)





I'm severely out of practice.

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Piffle
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#28

Post by Piffle »

Ja, können wir. (Again no umlaut)





I'm severely out of practice.[Noch einmal --> KEFD (Korrigierte es für dich)]





Ausgezeichnet! Übung macht frei. :roll:

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esseff44
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#29

Post by esseff44 »

Yep, we sang La Marseillaise in French class and the German anthem in German class along with a lot of folk songs. My favorite by far was this great old German protest song going back to about 1229. It has definitely stood the test of time.





[/break1]wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Gedanken_sind_frei]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Gedanken_sind_frei





I like the Pete Seeger version, too.





[/break1]youtube.com/watch?v=dbwQXVcbkU0]





What student BB seemed to be missing was an understanding of the lyrics of this last song. No one can compel you to pledge allegiance even if they want you to recite the words. It's no different that being in church and not taking part in communion or reciting the Apostle's Creed and any other part of the rituals that do not feel right.





I fault the teacher for not having a list to choose from of things to memorize and recite in addition to the pledge and national anthem. How boring it must have been to hear the same thing over and over. It would be like everyone having to report on the same book in front of the class.





What's missing is what was the real reason she was kept from the class. What form did her refusal take? The complaint said she wanted to go back but was not allowed to. Something is missing there. What had she said to the media about the teacher, the class and the school? If she were really an avid student, why wasn't she given assignments that would show she had mastered the material?





To me it sounds like a lot of wrongs all around and no recognizable rights. It will be interesting to see how the complaint is answered. It sounds like personality conflicts and hurt feelings and egos that got out of hand. But that is the bread and butter of a lot of lawyers. ;)

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magdalen77
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#30

Post by magdalen77 »

Ja, können wir. (Again no umlaut)





I'm severely out of practice.[Noch einmal --> KEFD (Korrigierte es für dich)]





Ausgezeichnet! Übung macht frei. :roll:Practice makes perfect.





Ja, aber Ich bin schlecht. Also Ich bin mude (damn I was trying to skip umlauts).

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SLQ
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#31

Post by SLQ »

Heck, I can still sing all the words to Feliz Navidad from my high school Spanish classes. That would rile some RWNJs up -- race AND religion, all neatly packaged.
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda

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magdalen77
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#32

Post by magdalen77 »

I can probably still say the Hail Mary in German. (2 of my 4 years of German were in Catholic high school).

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Sterngard Friegen
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#33

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

I played Santa Claus in a play in the 6th grade at Canyon School. Didn't stick.

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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#34

Post by Somerset »

Singing, "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit für das deutsches Vaterland...". Unfortunately, I can't put an umlaut on the u in fur. --> KEFS (Korrigierte es für Sie)





Oder sollen wir duzen?




Sekrit Stuffs!
I oughta warn you about this: The use of German in posts drives raicha up the wall. If she sees this she'll smack us into next Tuesday. Jes sayin...
Sekrit Stuffs!
You mean like this?





Pinoy kapwa Pinoy


Ang naglalaban doon sa Mindanao


Marami ng dugo


Ang dumanak sa lupa ng Mindanao


Mindanao





I should quickly add just metaphorically speaking and completely tongue in cheek ;)


I just wanted to play a bit in the foreign language sandbox :D

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realist
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#35

Post by realist »

Golly. In my 9th grade German class, we all learned to sing all three verses of Das Deutschlandlied ("Deutschland, Deutschland über alles"). As far as I can tell, that experience failed to turn me into a Nazi.Based on the mere fact you are a member here is, to some, proof otherwise.
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MaineSkeptic
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#36

Post by MaineSkeptic »

Singing, "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit für das deutsches Vaterland...". Unfortunately, I can't put an umlaut on the u in fur. --> KEFS (Korrigierte es für Sie)


I believe that vollkommen korrigiert would be "für das deutsche[] Vaterland."





(Similar error in the original Producers song lyric, "Haben Sie gehört das deutsches Band.")

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magdalen77
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#37

Post by magdalen77 »

Singing, "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit für das deutsches Vaterland...". Unfortunately, I can't put an umlaut on the u in fur. --> KEFS (Korrigierte es für Sie)


I believe that vollkommen korrigiert would be "für das deutsche[] Vaterland."





(Similar error in the original Producers song lyric, "Haben Sie gehört das deutsches Band.")I remember singing "das deutsches Vaterland" but you're probably right. I bet the genitive is des deutsches Vaterland. Hmmm, do you use genitive after für? I really suck at definite articles.

MaineSkeptic
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#38

Post by MaineSkeptic »

I remember singing "das deutsches Vaterland" but you're probably right. I bet the genitive is des deutsches Vaterland. Hmmm, do you use genitive after für? I really suck at definite articles.Genitive (IIRC!) would be des deutschen Vaterlandes, and it's the accusative after für.





But I will happily defer to a native speaker or, for that matter, anyone who really knows!

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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#39

Post by A Legal Lohengrin »

What student BB seemed to be missing was an understanding of the lyrics of this last song. No one can compel you to pledge allegiance even if they want you to recite the words. It's no different that being in church and not taking part in communion or reciting the Apostle's Creed and any other part of the rituals that do not feel right.This is entirely true, and why I do not bother to object to swearing an oath even if there is an "affirmation" option, if that might be socially awkward. It is a trivial matter that means little to me.





However, there are those, like the Jehovah's Witnesses in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, for whom swearing an oath or pledging allegiance to anything other than their God is a profound insult to their core beliefs. Essentially, to force such a person to make such a pledge or an oath, with the power of the state behind the coercion, is to force them to betray their religion.





I do not believe religious beliefs are entitled to any greater or lesser protection than other sincerely held beliefs. If someone feels that taking a pledge or an oath, even in vain, is to them morally repugnant, they should not be forced to do so by the state. Nor should receiving an education, a fundamental right, be conditioned upon giving up another.





A book that I found encapsulates my own moral and philosophical beliefs against coerced speech is The Freedom Not to Speak by Haig Bosmajian. This book, which I read years ago, cemented my beliefs that not only is the state without legitimate power to coerce any form of speech, but that this principle is also enshrined in the First Amendment and that disregarding it has always been abusive.





The right not to be forced to say a pledge is not based upon whether or not I approve of the speaker or the beliefs that lead to the refusal. Frankly, I detect more than a trace of a nasty, nativist mentality specifically directed at Mexicans. Had I received the same assignment in high school, I might not even have considered the implications of a pledge. I did take German and am pretty sure I recited the anthem at some point.





I think this case would be rather different had the assignment been simply translating the pledge, or some other piece of literature. For example, a Latin student who refused to translate a passage from Caesar's Gallic Wars, a common assignment I did in high school myself, would not have a leg to stand on if complaining that his opposition to war in all forms made translating this passage an exercise in militarism. However, a pledge or an oath are very special kinds of speech.





Personally, I am concerned more with the substance of speech than its form. So if I take an oath not to commit perjury, its substantive content is that I am aware perjury is a crime, and that the power of the state can rain down hellfire on me if I lie under oath, and that if I value my honor, I will not lie. Okay, so they threw in a gratuitous God that I don't believe in. Fine. Whatever. The substance is the same. I'm not going to throw a fit about it.





There are those, though, whose beliefs are less yielding, and to whom being forced to say something like a pledge that they do not believe in is a grievous insult to their true beliefs. The state should not have the power to force people to utter words of oath or allegiance or be punished, with bad grades or anything else. There is virtually no compelling state interest that people be forced to pledge allegiance to a foreign country. With a trivial change in curriculum, it is possible to accommodate such beliefs without in any way interfering with valid pedagogical objectives.





Therefore, I think that if the facts are as alleged in the complaint, the plaintiff has a legitimate case that should be heard and decided in her favor.




Edit: I should note that while I use legal terminology here and there throughout this post, I also describe education as a "fundamental right," a phrase with a specific legal meaning. However, education has not, in fact, been recognized as a fundamental right by the Supreme Court, in one of their worst errors. In contrast, New Jersey's state courts have, in fact, recognized education as a fundamental right. I think that the Supreme Court should recognize what I believe to be a fundamental right, but it hasn't, and so that statement is "legally" wrong. I contend that it is right in reality. Anything else I say about law in this post is, in my opinion, correct, though.

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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#40

Post by June bug »

Golly. In my 9th grade German class, we all learned to sing all three verses of Das Deutschlandlied ("Deutschland, Deutschland über alles"). As far as I can tell, that experience failed to turn me into a Nazi.Based on the mere fact you are a member here is, to some, proof indirect confirmation otherwise.FIFY.

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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#41

Post by DejaMoo »

Thomas More strikes again.





[link]Brinsdon v. McAllen Independent School District,http://www.thomasmore.org/sites/default ... 022713.pdf[/link]





A complete and utter waste of time, if you ask me. That said, Nativists are all over this as a sign of the creeping Mexicanization of the US. I see it as a bad grade in a Spanish class.After telling her dad about her refusal to participate, daddy gave her a spy camera pen to take back to class to secretly record her classmates performing their assignment. He then provided that video to The Blaze, who in exchange for their (snooze) exclusive video, had him interviewed by Glenn Beck as his reward.





That tells me all I need to know. Dad's a RWNJ, his daughter absorbed his POV, and doubtless carried that attitude into the classroom. Dad and daughter probably make a hobby of inciting trouble in order to claim victimization when they get a reaction.


It sure got them both plenty of attention, and hero status with the very people to whom they brought their story.





I'd love to hear the opinions of this girl's classmates. I bet we'd hear a very different story about what went on and the characters involved.
I've heard this bull before.

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DaveMuckey
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#42

Post by DaveMuckey »

We shall see. We're at the pleading stage.I don't think a claim based on a requirement that two Spanish-language recitations were offensive to the student (or will turn the student into a Mexican-national robot) will survive a motion to dismiss. Inappropriate retaliatory conduct might, but I don't know if a court will want to get into the thicket of determining if a grade is "fair." How will the court know? Look at other students' exams and the grades they received? I don't think that's proper.I was thinking that. Having the court arbitrate a grade might bring up questions of standing, I reckon. And the story about her suspension leaves a lot of questions best left at school.

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Mikedunford
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Thomas More Law Center v. Barack Hussein Obama Appeal

#43

Post by Mikedunford »

We shall see. We're at the pleading stage.I don't think a claim based on a requirement that two Spanish-language recitations were offensive to the student (or will turn the student into a Mexican-national robot) will survive a motion to dismiss. Inappropriate retaliatory conduct might, but I don't know if a court will want to get into the thicket of determining if a grade is "fair." How will the court know? Look at other students' exams and the grades they received? I don't think that's proper.I was thinking that. Having the court arbitrate a grade might bring up questions of standing, I reckon. And the story about her suspension leaves a lot of questions best left at school.I think that dismissal would be much more likely if the claim was limited to the grade on the single assignment in question. The big problem for the school, I think, is the exclusion from the class for the remainder of the semester. At this point, if the allegations in the complaint are true, the student was removed from the class, had to remain in the office during that class period instead of attending class for the rest of the semester, and, despite having received no worse than average grades prior to the incident, received a failing grade on her report card as her final grade for a class which the school had actively barred her from attending. According to the complaint, when she was initially removed from the class, the school told the student that the removal was because of the media attention that the student (and/or her father) had stirred up.To me, that sounds like a pretty compelling civil rights claim. It smells very much like retaliation. The student may or may not have had a right to object to the assignment on the grounds of her personal, strongly-held beliefs. That's a complex area of law, and not one I know a thing about. I don't think it matters to resolving this specific issue. It relates to the appropriateness of the failing grade that the student received on that single assignment. The failing grade could be completely earned, and the student could have been completely out of line to refuse. That doesn't mean that it was necessarily reasonable to remove the student from the class for the rest of the semester. I think this one issue gets past dismissal, and possibly to trial. I think there's a real question there, that will likely involve disputed material facts. And I do think it's a question that may (depending on what administrative remedies may or may not have been available) be proper to bring before the court. If the school really did pull her from the class because of the media attention, that's a Constitutional issue.
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