Child Abuse and Abductions

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#126

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri May 26, 2017 6:43 pm

SLQ wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:Disgusting doesn't even come close to describing it.
I can't imagine a fitting punishment.
Oh, I can...


"The people must know before they can act, and there is no educator to compare with the press." - Ida B. Wells-Barnett, journalist, newspaper editor, suffragist, feminist and founder with others of NAACP.

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#127

Post by SLQ » Fri May 26, 2017 7:28 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
SLQ wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:Disgusting doesn't even come close to describing it.
I can't imagine a fitting punishment.
Oh, I can...
Truth be told, I can too. But it would require me to condone prison rape, which I can't do.


"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#128

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri May 26, 2017 9:24 pm

That's just a beginning in my imagination.


"The people must know before they can act, and there is no educator to compare with the press." - Ida B. Wells-Barnett, journalist, newspaper editor, suffragist, feminist and founder with others of NAACP.

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#129

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:27 am

Norway's colorful tabloid newspaper VG ("Verdenss Gang") has a long piece describing an Australian police operation to close two pedophile websites called Child's Play and Gift Box Exchange. The Norwegian journalists investigating the site discovered that the server hosting Child's Play was rented out to the Aussie anti-child abuse unit so met with them and agreed to keep quiet until the story could safely be told.

VG tell the story at length at VG har avslørt verdens største overgreps­forum. Det ble drevet av politiet.

For dem som ikke forstå norsk, they helpfully also provide the article in English at VG exposed the largest child sexual abuse forum. It was run by the police.

One of the interesting procedural and policy aspects of the case is that international partners were happy to allow the Australian task force to run the operation because Australian law allows their judges to grant police extra latitude to do otherwise illegal acts in pursuit of these evil folk. The Child's Play site had a policy that their leader would post a monthly message to confirm that all was ok, and that this message would always end with an image of child abuse because it would be illegal for most countries' police to do that ... but that wasn't a show-stopper for the Aussies.

That issue is discussed briefly in the main article and at more length in
UNICEF: – Klart brudd på barnekonvensjonen
, also helpfully provided på engelsk in UNICEF: – Clear violation of UN children’s convention. I was especially unimpressed with the logic-chopping idiocy of Prof. Carissa Hessick who seems to have no conception that this is an important contest against an immoral and secretive opponents out to cause great harm, not a juvenile debate amongst freshmen law or philosophy students in a sunny classroom.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#130

Post by MsDaisy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:00 pm

Catholic Church Covered Up Child Sex Abuse in Pennsylvania for Decades, Grand Jury Says
Bishops and other leaders of the Roman Catholic Church in Pennsylvania covered up child sexual abuse by hundreds of priests over a period of 70 years, persuading victims not to report the abuse and police officers not to investigate it, according to a report issued by a grand jury on Tuesday.

The report, which says there were more than 1,000 identifiable victims and covered six of the state’s eight Catholic dioceses, is the broadest examination yet by a government agency in the United States of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. There have been ten previous reports by grand juries and attorneys general in the United States, according to the research and advocacy group BishopAccountability.org, but those examined single dioceses or counties.

The report catalogs horrific instances of abuse, including a priest who raped a young girl in the hospital after she had her tonsils out, and another priest who was allowed to stay in ministry after impregnating a 17-year-old girl, forging a signature on a marriage certificate and then divorcing the girl.

“Despite some institutional reform, individual leaders of the church have largely escaped public accountability,” the grand jury wrote. “Priests were raping little boys and girls, and the men of God who were responsible for them not only did nothing; they hid it all. For decades.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/c ... v=top-news


I’m a non subscriber of any religion. To me they’re all pretty much the same, belief in a Supreme Being/Higher Power, community, and fellowship of one kind or another. There are billions & billions of truly sincere people who get great comfort from that and that’s a good thing. But it is fact that things like this happen ALL. THE. TIME. in ALL religious denominations and always have and everyone knows it. Still people take their kids to church/places of worship and leave them there unattended ALL THE TIME anyway. Many of these same good religious people have gone on holy crusades against transgendered people who might pee in the same bathroom as their child, then turn around and offer their children freely to pedophiles in houses of worship without a second thought. That does not make any sense to me. Why would anyone ever leave their child unattended in such a place?


Birfers are toast

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#131

Post by Patagoniagirl » Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:58 am

300 Catholic priests molesting over 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone! One State, one religion. I am truly stunned and appalled.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#132

Post by DejaMoo » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:27 am

My beef with religion is a simple one: I object to any belief that claims supreme authority for its views and positions. That puts religion and its believers above the law, forces the truly faithful to fall in line or receive divine punishment, and forces unbelievers to fall under your religious beliefs.

Over and over again, in cases of religious abuse, we learn that religious leaders covered it up with threats of religious retribution to the accusers/their families if they didn't shut up and go along with what the leadership decided. And what they always decided was to not get the legal system involved. Doesn't matter if it's Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Amish, or any pagan group - they should never be allowed to use their religious authority to perpetrate criminal acts and obstruct justice.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#133

Post by Till Eulenspiegel » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:32 am

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:58 am
300 Catholic priests molesting over 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone! One State, one religion. I am truly stunned and appalled.
Appaled yes, stunned no.


„Er aber, sag’s ihm, er kann mich im Arsche lecken!“ - J.W. Goethe - Götz von Berlichingen

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#134

Post by Till Eulenspiegel » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:36 am

New Mexico Compound Members Are Granted Bail; Judge Receives Death Threats

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/15/63875992 ... th-threats

Bail is 20 grand each.

(Cross posted from the Judges thread )


„Er aber, sag’s ihm, er kann mich im Arsche lecken!“ - J.W. Goethe - Götz von Berlichingen

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#135

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:48 am

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:58 am
300 Catholic priests molesting over 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone! One State, one religion. I am truly stunned and appalled.
First, I should note that I am not and have never been Catholic, so I have no incentive to defend the Catholic church. I am a victim of sexual abuse by (Protestant) clergy, so I have an understandable desire to ensure that as many guilty pedophiles are taken off the streets (permanently) as we can do while ensuring that innocents are not convicted in a witch hunt.

The dimensions of the Pennsylvania report are truly staggering, though it should be noted that the offenses cataloged happened over 70 years. The bad thing about the Catholic church is that they had the centralized organizational structure where they were able to make problems vanish in a way that served the church at the expense of the victims. And, as the movie "Spotlight" showed, there were many lay people who acted as enablers, defending the church with pro bono legal work, etc. But it is equally important to note that the same central structure that enabled abuse is also enabling the Catholic church to reform more effectively than decentralized Protestant groups and others.

It's pretty clear that the incidence of pedophile clergy is far higher than in the general population. And, unfortunately, when pedophiles get into the clergy, they rack up many more victims than pedophiles operating outside a power structure that gives them authority over kids and their parents. In my first abuse survivor's support group, over 80% of the members were abused by clergy, despite the fact that the group was not at all aimed towards that situation. There are other groups that focus only on sexual abuse by clergy.

Though some think so, I don't believe that celibacy is the thing that attracts pedophiles to the Catholic priesthood. I think that some join the clergy thinking that God will somehow help them curb their desires and find themselves sliding, while others knowingly join understanding that the power relationship between priests and kids/parents will prove a rich hunting ground to groom victims. I believe that the Protestant church and all other religions that don't mandate celibacy will have similar amounts of abuse, driven by the power that clergy has over members.

I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses are only at the beginning of a massive scandal that will be at least as epic as that in the Catholic church (though there are only about 1.2 million JWs in the US versus 70 million self-identified Catholics). Their absurd claim that scripture justifies the "two witness rule," presuming any claim of abuse invalid if there weren't two neutral adult witnesses, is repugnant. And the central organization is not doing itself any favors, as recent documents and videos have leaked where top management is instructing local offices to destroy any evidence relating to allegations of child abuse, and to handle any new allegations in ways that don't create new written records. Given that the JW's are suffering significant financial losses at the US and global level, a growing wave of suits could cause that organization to collapse. Unlike the Catholics, they're doubling down on protecting the guilty instead of being interested in reforming, so I'm rooting for the lawyers to put them out of business. They don't have the assets to settle suits and continue in business like the Catholics, so it's good riddance as far as I'm concerned.

Other protestant denominations have a much bigger problem that will take much longer to fix. Protestant denominations, even large ones like the Baptists or Presbyterians, are decentralized, with most decision making on other than key theological matters handled at the individual church level. Thus, there's no central authority to mandate best practices for child safety or to force local congregations to adhere to policies for involving the police. There are many more victims still undiscovered in protestant churches all over the US who will never at least see their accuser named in a credible police investigation as a tiny step towards healing. And it's not just at crazy backwoods churches like the cult in Minnesota run by Victor Barnard (google it; subject of a 20/20 documentary two years ago). It's happening in seemingly respectable suburban congregations (which is where I was abused).

And it's not just Christianity. The Orthodox Jewish community has major problems with this as well. And there have been recent reports that major figures in bringing Buddhist practices to the US have been abusers. And don't even start me on the sexual abuse that seems to be part and parcel of outright cults like Scientology or thousands of smaller groups. The list goes on endlessly.

The scope of the problem I am describing here is not intended to suggest that I believe in the QAnon conspiracy whack jobs and their idea that Trump is saving the world from a Democratic-controlled secret satanic pedophile cabal. There are definitely rich hedge fund managers like Jeffrey Epstein with perverted tastes, but I don't believe there's either a massive coordinated network nor that there are tens of thousands of politicians who are there. I'm focused on what can be reliably measured and proven to exist.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#136

Post by p0rtia » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:41 am

You are a treasure, JPC. This should be a chapter in your book.

So much of what you write here describes institutional abuses of power in general (speaking of how abuses of all kinds are enabled and covered up).

After the Sandusky case, I thought I saw the potential for child abuse in predominately male institutions of all kinds. But now I'm thinking it's any institution, and that in our society at this time power lies mostly with men. So yeah, the abuse of power, magnified exponentially by the institution.

:bighug:


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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#137

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:48 am

p0rtia wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:41 am
You are a treasure, JPC. This should be a chapter in your book.

So much of what you write here describes institutional abuses of power in general (speaking of how abuses of all kinds are enabled and covered up).

After the Sandusky case, I thought I saw the potential for child abuse in predominately male institutions of all kinds. But now I'm thinking it's any institution, and that in our society at this time power lies mostly with men. So yeah, the abuse of power, magnified exponentially by the institution.

:bighug:
:thumbs:


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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#138

Post by Suranis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:58 am
300 Catholic priests molesting over 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone! One State, one religion. I am truly stunned and appalled.
Actually, I'm surprised at how low the numbers are. Typically these abusers go through a few dozen kids each.

But, hey its Catholic so its all over the media.

Just for some perspective, a 2004 report on sexual abuse in the wider US educational system said, in part
This analysis indicates that 9.6 percent of all students in grades 8 to 11 report contact and/or noncontact educator sexual misconduct that was unwanted." (p. 25).

"To get a sense of the extent of the number of students who have been targets of educator sexual misconduct, I applied the percent of students who report experiencing educator sexual misconduct to the population of all K-12 students. Based on the assumption that the AAUW surveys accurately represent the experiences of all K-12 students, more than 4.5 million students are subject to sexual misconduct by an employee of a school sometime between kindergarten and 12th grade. Possible limitations of the study would all suggest that the findings reported here under-estimate educator sexual misconduct in schools." (p. 26).
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/p ... report.pdf


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#139

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:49 pm

Suranis wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm
Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:58 am
300 Catholic priests molesting over 1000 children in Pennsylvania alone! One State, one religion. I am truly stunned and appalled.
Actually, I'm surprised at how low the numbers are. Typically these abusers go through a few dozen kids each.

But, hey its Catholic so its all over the media.

Just for some perspective, a 2004 report on sexual abuse in the wider US educational system said, in part
This analysis indicates that 9.6 percent of all students in grades 8 to 11 report contact and/or noncontact educator sexual misconduct that was unwanted." (p. 25).

"To get a sense of the extent of the number of students who have been targets of educator sexual misconduct, I applied the percent of students who report experiencing educator sexual misconduct to the population of all K-12 students. Based on the assumption that the AAUW surveys accurately represent the experiences of all K-12 students, more than 4.5 million students are subject to sexual misconduct by an employee of a school sometime between kindergarten and 12th grade. Possible limitations of the study would all suggest that the findings reported here under-estimate educator sexual misconduct in schools." (p. 26).
https://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/p ... report.pdf
While the idea that 10% of students will have an inappropriate sexual contact at some point in their school career is appalling, it should also be noted that schools are perhaps the cutting edge of dealing aggressively with problem employees. I just asked a friend who's in school administration at a large district in New York state, who says that they typically fire about 0.5% (1 in 200) teachers each year for inappropriate sexually-oriented behavior, so they typically handle 5-6 cases in his district. Most of what they act on is leering commentary by high school teachers towards students of the opposite sex. Little crosses over into the criminal realm, where they understandably have a zero tolerance policy and follow mandatory reporting rules that involve the police immediately. But even ogling and leering, which would have been ignored back in the day, is now going to get you fired for cause and likely to be unable to teach again.

Interestingly, the number of reports of female teachers abusing male students is increasing (Fox News takes particular delights in running these stories with leering commentary whenever they can find them), though I don't think there's a lot of data on what the relative incedence of female perpetrators is versus male offenders.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#140

Post by Patagoniagirl » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:09 pm

Really Suranis? ForGawdSake can you not shake your Catholic sparkle fog and see that this is a horrific, ongoing issue? The Catholic Church IS focused on because...well, look at the breadth of it's reach. The numbers.

For fucksakes, instead of defending this shit by calling. "Witch Hunt," say it is hideous and despicable, which I know you know it is.

According to documents presented, THREE HUNDRED PRIESTS MOLESTED OVER ONE THOUSAND CHILDREN!

I know no one who attributes this hideousness solely to the catholic church. But as one of the world's largest religions, one might expect they bear a great responsibility for taking a lead in expunging pedophiles from it's ranks.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#141

Post by AndyinPA » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:09 pm

The document is about 900-1,000 pages long, so it's pretty devastating, but I'd also guess that even with that many priests and victims, it doesn't really cover all of it.

I think I may have mentioned this before here, but I used to really respect Bishop Donal Wuerl. He was the bishop in Pittsburgh for a long time, a local boy. I'm not Catholic, but he always seemed to be active and engaged in the church and the community in general here. He's now the arch bishop for Washington, DC. I lost all respect for him since I've seen him standing next to twitler while twitler signed some horrendous executive orders, smiling over his shoulder. I'm positive, given how long he was here, that he was involved with covering this up.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#142

Post by HeatherGray » Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:09 pm
Really Suranis? ForGawdSake can you not shake your Catholic sparkle fog and see that this is a horrific, ongoing issue? The Catholic Church IS focused on because...well, look at the breadth of it's reach. The numbers.

For fucksakes, instead of defending this shit by calling. "Witch Hunt," say it is hideous and despicable, which I know you know it is.

According to documents presented, THREE HUNDRED PRIESTS MOLESTED OVER ONE THOUSAND CHILDREN!

I know no one who attributes this hideousness solely to the catholic church. But as one of the world's largest religions, one might expect they bear a great responsibility for taking a lead in expunging pedophiles from it's ranks.
Well, don't you know the Catholic church is holy and special until you point to the pedophile priest protection society, in which case, the Catholic apologizers are all about "Well why don't you blame other institutions as well?" /sarcasm



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#143

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:04 pm

AndyinPA wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:09 pm
The document is about 900-1,000 pages long, so it's pretty devastating, but I'd also guess that even with that many priests and victims, it doesn't really cover all of it.
This is a grand jury report. The standard of proof for inclusion should thus be relatively high. We can be quite reasonably confident that the number of priests who perpetrated abuse is dramatically higher than 300 over the course of 70 years, and the number of victims has been understated by integer multiples if not at least an order of magnitude, perhaps more.

Let's do a Global Capitalism HQ Numbers Dive(tm). This is a back-of-the-envelope exercise only, to sanity-check a SWAGged number. This is not a hard number to take to the bank.

To get a rough cut of the number of potential victims, we note first that the population of PA has been relatively stable in the 1947-2017 period, going from 11.0 to 12.8 million, versus a dramatically higher growth in the overall US population. So assume that the total number of children 0-18 is approximately the higher end of that number -- since the 70-year period is approximately one average lifetime. So you have 13,000,000 people, roughly half of whom were males, who lived a full childhood in PA during that period. Assume the standard "1 in 6" number that represents best credible estimate of lifetime sexual abuse incidence in males (most of that in childhood) and you get 1,100,000 male sexual abuse victims. Trim back about 30% of abuse incidents that happen in adulthood (probably generous as I'd bet way more than 70% happen to males in childhood) and then apply about 30% Catholic (slightly more than the US average) and you get about 200,000 Catholic male childhood sexual abuse victims.

So how many of those 200,000 male Catholic childhood sexual abuse victims were abused by Catholic priests? I don't have hard data about abuse by priests versus stranger abuse, family/incest or abuse by people in positions of power in non-religious organizations, but you can quickly peel back the number to suggest that there are easily somewhere in the many tens of thousands of priestly abuse victims, perhaps even over 100,000 in PA in this time frame. And if you assume a fanout of 12 victims per priest (which my gut tells me is probably low, though I have no data on this), you get 8,000 priests involved. If you assume more average victims per priest, say, 25, then you have about 4,000 priests involved, good because fewer priests were involved, but bad because each pedophile priest causes so much more damage.

So we can absolutely be confident that the grand jury report massively underreports the problem, but it's important to understand that it is documenting abuse incidents that meet a certain standard of proof and does not purport to be an accurate estimate of the overall scope of the problem.



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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#144

Post by Suranis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:06 pm

Patagoniagirl wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:09 pm
Really Suranis? ForGawdSake can you not shake your Catholic sparkle fog and see that this is a horrific, ongoing issue? The Catholic Church IS focused on because...well, look at the breadth of it's reach. The numbers.
Sure, when people actually fucking recognize that the church has made massive strides in Child protection over the last 30 fucking years. It's NOT the same church it was in 19fucking45 which is as far back as they had to go to find those 1000 kids.

And I'm sorry but the Church is not a massive controlling organization that secretly runs the world and secretly runs a massive pedophilia network LIKE THE ONE Qanon IS PROMOTING. We laugh at people that promote that filth, but when there's a priest collar involved suddenly everyone is nodding all about the YUUUUGE clownspiracy and how the Chutch is still the same on this issue as it was in the 1980s and has done fuck all

And it would be nice for people to catch on that the people who scream this shit with a gramaphone whenever there's a priest involved and don't give a fuck whenever anyone else does it DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT KIDS. I started off bieng as horrified as you but over 30 fucking years of watching this I've come to the serious conclusion that they don't. They are not interested in reporting the good things in child protection. They have some interest in reporting other child abusers if there is nothing else to fill airtime. But if its a Priest or a Catholic AROOOOGA!! its all over the shop.

The hypocrisy on this chocking me and the self righteous bullshit around this makes me gag.

You actually think sports organizations haven't had their own scandals and other groups like secular schools haven't covered things up? You think the Church has more power than FIFA and that FIFA isn't covering things up either. Of course the Church is more guilty that FIFA becasue one has instituted massive reforms, and FIFA has done fuck all, much like the NFL and other bunches of organizations filled with people who have positions of respect and power with easy access to kids...

But hey, because we keep finding shit from the 1980s, that means the whole Church shelters Pedos today. That's exactly like saying that the Klu Klux Klan is on the Side of the Democratic Party because it was started by Democrats. In the 1850s. Maybe you should start showing stuff from the, I don't know, present to prove how bad the church still is.

I mean if the Chuch is still a haven for Pedos why the hell do they have to still dredge up stuff from the 1980s and before?

How many times does the Church have to admit things and apologize before the Anti-Catholic Bigots of America are satisfied?

I have had this same argument here, and people argued that because I'm a celibate Catholic I am secretly thirsting to fuck kids. Good thing you are all tolerant, and don't agree with Qanon and it's stories of World Controlling Networks of Pedophiles at all.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#145

Post by Suranis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:20 pm

Oh, why do I bother? Fine. Sure. Everything is true. I'm an Incel, a woman hater, and a Pedophile. There, happy? Good. Knock yourself out. It's what you all are thinking so might as well be honest about it.

I'm sick of fighting for balance and the truth. You win. I'll just crawl off and be lonely the rest of my life.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#146

Post by Suranis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:38 pm

Oh fuck it I'm a sucker for punishment. Here, this is from 10 years ago. You will all ignore it as it does not fit your Pedo priest fucking fantasies but I don't give a fuck at this point. No wai you will wonder what the Catholic Church has achieved since.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/p ... 04091.html
Praise for Church over child protection policies

Saturday, October 24, 2009
By Claire O’Sullivan

THE author of the damning investigation into clerical abuse in the Diocese of Cloyne has applauded the Catholic Church for having undertaken “a truly remarkable” journey to a place where it could yet become a champion of child protection.

Chief executive of the Catholic Church’s National Board for Safeguarding Children (NBSC), Ian Elliot robustly defended recent efforts by the Church to right its dismal record describing an “increasingly evident” sense of purpose and commitment to child protection.

“There are champions for children in the Church that deserve the highest praise. They are at all levels of the Church and many are within the hierarchy. The aim of establishing the Church as an exemplar for best safeguarding practice has gained major support. We are in a very different place to where we were two years ago.”

He said over the past two years, those in authority within the Church had learnt that “vital lesson” that “the safety of the child must be put first before all other considerations”.

Mr Elliot cautioned however that this was “a positive start” and that the Church has a “great deal” more to do. He also admitted there “was an element” of the Church “being forced” to address its failings in the face of public anger. “I don’t think this change is happening just because of the inquiries. They have slowly recognised this problem is solvable. The NBSC is also trusted now by the Church. They now see it will treat them in a fair way.”

“I do feel we can achieve the aim of being seen as an exemplar for best practice in the field of safeguarding children.”

Mr Elliot said that earlier this year, one of the cardinals and up to 12 bishops immediately signed up for a child protection training course he organised. “This would not have happened two years ago,” he said.

The former social worker told those gathered at the Biennal Children Protection and Social Work Conference at UCC that the NBSC’s document ‘Safeguarding Children: Standards and Guidance for the Children’ was a groundbreaking document as all the 184 constituent parts of the Church agreed they would implement guidelines fully and agreed to auditing and review by the NBSC.

“Nothing of this nature had ever happened before and this achievement represented the single most valuable development that has taken place during the short but eventful life of the national board, and also for me as its chief officer.”

Noting that the Church had previously attempted to develop a uniform approach to child protection in 1976 he said the new guidance had to be supported by a verifiable commitment to implement it or else it would suffer a similar fate.

Describing the enormity of implementing uniform child protection he said small and poor dioceses often suffer due to a lack of resources and said he wanted to ensure resources were directed at them.

He also called for further recruitment of experienced child protection professionals across the Church and a continued effort to “build trust” with abuse survivors, priests, the faithful and all members of the hierarchy.
And this has the Church... pointing out to Government that it is putting up legal barriers that are preventing its Child Protection efforts.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social- ... -1.3546118
Church body warns of legal barriers to addressing abuse failings
Safeguarding board told Government it had no central database of priests facing allegations
Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 01:00
Jack Power

Data protection concerns were preventing the National Board for Safeguarding Children from keeping a central database of priests who are facing child abuse allegations, the Department of Justice was told in April. Photograph: Christian Hartmann/Reuters

The Catholic Church’s child protection watchdog has said legal barriers are preventing it from addressing “serious and widespread” failings in how some allegations of clerical sexual abuse are handled.

Data protection concerns are preventing the National Board for Safeguarding Children from keeping a central database of priests who are facing child abuse allegations, with potentially “devastating consequences for children”, the organisation’s board told the Department of Justice in April.

The problem was creating a “very serious deficiency” in the system set up to prevent clerical sex abuse, the board said, according to correspondence obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

Citing data protection concerns, some dioceses and orders are not sharing identifying information about alleged abusers with the board, or between each other, which creates a “significant obstacle” in ensuring safeguarding standards, the board told the department.

Over the last year the board has repeatedly asked the department to introduce regulations to allow it to record the personal details of priests facing allegations, to prevent the “otherwise inevitable risk” of members of the clergy moving to other dioceses, where authorities would be unaware of the allegations.

Abuse scandals

The board was set up by the bishops in 2006, in the wake of a series of major clerical sex abuse scandals, to independently audit child protection standards across the Catholic Church.

During audits of dioceses and religious orders, the board said it had come across “many instances where allegations of clerical child sexual abuse has not been notified to the statutory agencies” or to the relevant bishop.

Shortcomings in how clerical abuse allegations are handled, witnessed in the last 10 years “may continue to arise” if action is not taken, the board warned the department.

The board said the changes being sought would allow it to monitor if church authorities failed to pass allegations to An Garda Síochána or Tusla, the child and family agency.

The department rejected the proposals on April 10th, saying any current failures in reporting abuse allegations could be resolved through further “instruction, training, vetting,” and consultation between religious bodies and Tusla.

‘Marked misunderatanding’

The safeguarding board’s solicitors told the department on April 23rd that this suggestion showed a “marked misunderstanding of the serious nature” of the shortcomings.

Under current guidelines any priest moving between dioceses should get prior permission to celebrate Mass in another area, but this practice is sometimes “disregarded”, it said, adding that it had come across cases of “abusing priests” moving around the country.

The covering up of clerical abuse by moving priests who sexually abused children across the country was a feature of past Catholic Church abuse scandals.

The safeguarding board said that if it could maintain a list of current allegations against priests, it could alert local church authorities if suspect priests moved into their areas, “in cases where there is potential risk to children”.

A spokesman for the safeguarding board told The Irish Times it was not aware of any State body carrying out this oversight role currently.

Briefing notes prepared for Minister for Justice Charlie Flanagan said officials had “serious reservations” about approving the requested powers. The department notes said the board “has not advanced a compelling case” for the regulations it was seeking.
Extensive powers

If individual dioceses or religious orders were failing to follow child protection laws, this should be addressed by the internal governing bodies of the Catholic Church, the briefing notes from April advised.

Officials cautioned against giving “an unregulated non-governmental body” the extensive powers requested under data protection regulations, to hold “extremely sensitive personal data, including unproven criminal allegations”.

The department also had concerns that granting the board such powers could pose risks to Tusla or Garda investigations, a spokesman said.
But hey, who cares whats going on right now. :brickwallsmall:

I'm a bigger fool for even tying this here.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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TollandRCR
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Re: Child Abuse and Abdu

#147

Post by TollandRCR » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:50 pm

Thank you, Suranis. No, at least some of us will pay attention to the facts. It was a dismal history but may be a bright present.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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neeneko
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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#148

Post by neeneko » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:59 pm

Suranis wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:15 pm
Actually, I'm surprised at how low the numbers are. Typically these abusers go through a few dozen kids each.

But, hey its Catholic so its all over the media.
Yeah, if you try to bring this up in other denominations the media mostly ignores you and you get accused of being anti-christian.



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Suranis
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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#149

Post by Suranis » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:10 pm

neeneko wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:59 pm
Yeah, if you try to bring this up in other denominations the media mostly ignores you and you get accused of being anti-christian.
Yes, sadly. Billy Graham's grandson spoke about how prevalent it is in Evangelicals back in 2013. Of course, we heard pretty much nothing about it afterward.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/ ... 19347.html


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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JohnPCapitalist
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Re: Child Abuse and Abductions

#150

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Wed Aug 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Suranis wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:06 pm
How many times does the Church have to admit things and apologize before the Anti-Catholic Bigots of America are satisfied?

I have had this same argument here, and people argued that because I'm a celibate Catholic I am secretly thirsting to fuck kids. Good thing you are all tolerant, and don't agree with Qanon and it's stories of World Controlling Networks of Pedophiles at all.
To the extent that this comment was directed at my longer comment above, I would encourage anyone who thinks I might be anti-Catholic to go back and re-read my comment. A couple of salient quotes:
First, I should note that I am not and have never been Catholic, so I have no incentive to defend the Catholic church.
I probably should also have pointed out that I'm an atheist and have no incentive to fall into the "My deity can beat up your deity" comparison. I'm not a (hypothetical) Methodist who will feel smug about watching the Catholic church's woes laid bare and go smugly tell my Methodist friends "It'll never happen here."

Other relevant quotes:
But it is equally important to note that the same central structure that enabled abuse is also enabling the Catholic church to reform more effectively than decentralized Protestant groups and others.
----
Though some think so, I don't believe that celibacy is the thing that attracts pedophiles to the Catholic priesthood.
----
I believe the Jehovah's Witnesses are only at the beginning of a massive scandal that will be at least as epic as that in the Catholic church (though there are only about 1.2 million JWs in the US versus 70 million self-identified Catholics)... Unlike the Catholics, they're doubling down on protecting the guilty instead of being interested in reforming, so I'm rooting for the lawyers to put them out of business. [ed: I'm referring here to the JW's being put out of business here; they're running as fast as they can away from reform, so fuck 'em.]
----
Other protestant denominations have a much bigger problem that will take much longer to fix. [comparing the problem to the Catholic one. It's not just numbers, it's organization. As I said above, the centralized organization will help the Catholics reform faster.]
----
And it's not just Christianity. The Orthodox Jewish community has major problems with this as well. And there have been recent reports that major figures in bringing Buddhist practices to the US have been abusers. And don't even start me on the sexual abuse that seems to be part and parcel of outright cults like Scientology or thousands of smaller groups. The list goes on endlessly.
I have not here nor in any other forum said anything about abuse that specifically singled out Catholics as uniquely prone to this problem. Not once. It's pretty apparent that the Catholics were first to have the layers of secrecy peeled back, but ultimately, as I clearly and unambiguously stated above, the Protestant problem is larger and will be much harder and will take much longer to fix.

It's almost certain that the incidence of sexual abuse per capita is much larger in smaller groups such as the Victor Barnard cult I mentioned above, the FLDS polygamist/pedophilia cult (amusingly, the opposite of celibacy) or the recently exposed Nxivm cult in upstate New York, where perhaps 50-100 of the female members of the group, out of a total of 800-1,000 active members were either occasional casual sex partners of cult leader Keith Raniere or were caught up in a highly structured sex slavery operation where they made a lifetime commitment to have sex only with him.



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