Chauvin Jury deliberation poll

[noblepa]

I wondered how/why they charged him on three different charges for the same act. Then I realized that, if his inevitable appeal is successful, an appeals court might set aside the 2nd degree murder charge, for some reason, leaving the other two in place. Had they only charged him with 2nd degree, he would go free. In that scenario, they still have the 3rd degree and manslaughter charges to sentence him on.

Charging in the alternative is common. Most defendants want alternative charges, to give the jury a lesser option. All-or-nothing cases are unusual.

And, as you suggested, it works both ways: An appellate court could (for whatever reason) reverse on the second-degree murder charge but otherwise affirm the other charges. It could then be sent back to the trial court for the possibility of a retrial on only the second-degree murder charge.

IANAL, but I have seen cases in which the defendant was charged with multiple levels, as Chauvin was. But, it usually is a way to allow the jury to convict the defendant on SOMETHING, even if they feel the crime did not rise to the level of the most serious charge.

IOW, it is a way to allow the jury to, essentially, pick the level that they want to convict him on. Had Chauvin only been charged with 2nd degree, and the jury didn't think that the offense met the criteria for 2nd degree, they might have felt compelled to acquit him. I believe the term is "over charging"; the prosecutors aimed too high and the jury didn't support it.

For the lawyers out there, if an appeals court were to reverse the 2nd degree conviction, would the trial court then simply sentence him on the 3rd degree conviction? I supposed that the choice to retry him on the 2nd degree charge would depend, in large part, on the reasons that the appellate court reversed.

[sugar magnolia]

I wonder where Chauvin planned to hole up if he was acquitted. He'd have to have gone into hiding for a long time.

I wonder what he thought while he was killing Floyd and what he thought was going to happen. He seems disconnected from reality in some ways. Didn't he have a pattern of bad behavior? And why wasn't that dealt with? Also, it seems whenever trouble comes up with an officer, that officer often has a history. I remember reading about one guy where his city had to settle something like a couple million dollars on various cases of his bad behavior. How can one cop be worth that to protect?

17 complaints in his 19 years I believe, and a $27 million settlement to George Floyd's family by the city of Minneapolis, which happened during jury selection.

They can't bring up Chauvin's record of prior complaints because they have nothing to do with what he did to George Floyd. The judge approved bringing up 2 prior incidents because they were practically identical to what he did to George Floyd, but the prosecution never introduced them.

[RVInit]

Northland, exactly right. That's why I said we cannot let any of the inevitable backlash cause us to stop the momentum. We are definitely on the right track and we are headed in the right direction and we have made lots of progress, as you pointed out. Momentum. It's a good thing.

[pipistrelle]

I wonder where Chauvin planned to hole up if he was acquitted. He'd have to have gone into hiding for a long time.

I wonder what he thought while he was killing Floyd and what he thought was going to happen. He seems disconnected from reality in some ways. Didn't he have a pattern of bad behavior? And why wasn't that dealt with? Also, it seems whenever trouble comes up with an officer, that officer often has a history. I remember reading about one guy where his city had to settle something like a couple million dollars on various cases of his bad behavior. How can one cop be worth that to protect?

17 complaints in his 19 years I believe, and a $27 million settlement to George Floyd's family by the city of Minneapolis, which happened during jury selection.

They can't bring up Chauvin's record of prior complaints because they have nothing to do with what he did to George Floyd. The judge approved bringing up 2 prior incidents because they were practically identical to what he did to George Floyd, but the prosecution never introduced them.

Understand the record WRT to trial. But why do cities keep officers with that many issues?

[noblepa]

Many of us thought we had turned a corner when Obama was elected president. I remember how I never felt more proud of the United States than I did that night after it became clear that Obama had won the election. Sadly, it didn't take long for the backlash. I totally expect serious and violent backlash. But we cannot let that stop the momentum. It's time to clean up our police departments. Lots and lots of bad apples need to be removed from police departments all across this nation. I love all the people who are threatening that lots of police might resign. Good. The kind that would resign because of accountability are the kind we need to get rid of. So, I say let the resignations begin. They are not going to come soon enough for me.

As I have mentioned previously, I see the racists and white nationalist ideologies as a disease/virus/infection that is in the throughs of dying. What we have been experiencing since Obama is that the disease is seeing its demise and is lashing out, attempting to strike back on its final breaths (take a look at dying organizations/clubs from time to time and see what looks like a resurgence but with nastiness just before it collapses). It is also, in many ways, traveling the stages of grief. They see the end coming and are desperate to hold on to what they think they have known (people like to pick the deadly path because it seems old and comfortable instead of the new that brings them to a new life).

I have been poo-poo'd for this in the past as some see it as racism and hate coming back. Yes, it tries but it has not yet succeeded and with each new attempt, they lose more. Consider:

1. Obama was elected and then re-elected
2. Kamala Harris was elected
3. The Confederate Flag has fallen, even leaving the MS flag
3.5 (ETA) Monuments are falling and the work is afoot to rename bases.
4. The civil rights won during the 60's are generally intact (though eternal vigilance is needed on voting rights especially).
5. Racist acts in public, while on the surprise are looked down at by a vast majority of society
6. Racists are upset about being called racist (it is a social stigma)
7. From the tragedy of George Flloyd and others has come an upswell from a diverse segment of America in support of Black Lives Matters, from people, churches, and even corporations. My own day job has made statements in support of BLM and a diverse population.
8. DONALD TRUMP LOST!!!
9. While they try, the right keeps losing in the LGBT fight.
10. As they did during the Arizona MLK day stupidity, companies side with who they see are the majority of the people (i.e. the most customers) and punish states for their bad behaviors.
11. 15 years ago, would Chauvin even been charged?

Much more work is necessary, but never forget, the march continues to go forward. Freedom and liberty continue to win out over fear and hate. Always remember to stick your head briefly out of the trench, to see all that has been accomplished so far, and then press on.

I agree. We've been taking three steps forward and one step back for a long time now. Progress is not as fast as it should be, but there is progress.

The Klan is virtually gone now, but in some ways, it has morphed into militias, the Proud Boys and the Oathkeepers. I don't think that they will ever have the popular support that the Klan had in its heyday.

SCOTUS gutted the voting rights act, saying that it was no longer necessary. I think that the current attempts by the GOP to suppress minority voting rights is a direct result. I also don't think that these attempts will survive in the long run. I think that many will be struck down by the courts. Others will be repealed.

I think that people's attitudes are slowly changing. I don't see the casual racism that I used to see. When I was younger, people who would never burn a cross on someone's front yard, would, nevertheless, tell racist jokes/sexist/ethnic jokes. It was also clear in the workplace, that many hiring managers wouldn't think of hiring a black person. This stuff is not gone, but it is much less prevalent than it used to be.

[sugar magnolia]

I wonder what he thought while he was killing Floyd and what he thought was going to happen. He seems disconnected from reality in some ways. Didn't he have a pattern of bad behavior? And why wasn't that dealt with? Also, it seems whenever trouble comes up with an officer, that officer often has a history. I remember reading about one guy where his city had to settle something like a couple million dollars on various cases of his bad behavior. How can one cop be worth that to protect?

17 complaints in his 19 years I believe, and a $27 million settlement to George Floyd's family by the city of Minneapolis, which happened during jury selection.

They can't bring up Chauvin's record of prior complaints because they have nothing to do with what he did to George Floyd. The judge approved bringing up 2 prior incidents because they were practically identical to what he did to George Floyd, but the prosecution never introduced them.

Understand the record WRT to trial. But why do cities keep officers with that many issues?

Union rules. Threats of lawsuits. Lack of proof if the complaints are unfounded. Undermanned depts that need bodies in uniforms. Lots of reasons.

[roadscholar]

Greg Gutfeld: "I'm glad [Chauvin] was found guilty on all charges, even if he might not be guilty of all charges. I am glad that he is guilty of all charges because I want a verdict that keeps this country from going up in flames." (Note the groans from his Fox News colleagues.)

While I certainly don't want to see the country "go up in flames", that is not a good reason to convict someone.

I believe that Chauvin has been rightly convicted. I, too, was concerned that an acquittal would cause widespread violent protests.

But, in a different scenario, an officer so charged might, in fact, not be guilty, but still cause violent protests upon his acquittal. To convict that person in order to insure domestic peace would be wrong. If he's guilty, convict him. If he's not, acquit him, but don't make him a scapegoat for political expediency.

I don’t believe a single judge or jury has ever delivered a verdict they didn’t actually believe just to prevent riots. That’s a scurrilous assertion.

But that’s not the part of that statement that makes me cringe. It’s the “even if he might not be guilty” part.

So, even while you right-wingers crow about law and order, you’re really happy to disregard a unanimous jury decision when the murderer is a white male cop?

OK. Just so I know.

[noblepa]

Understand the record WRT to trial. But why do cities keep officers with that many issues?

That's a good question.

One answer is: strong police unions.

Another is that city leaders sometimes share the views held by the bad officers.

There's inertia. It probably takes a lot of time and effort to fire an officer who has a record of mistreatment that never rises to the level that it did with Chauvin. It's also not a good career move for politicians, to be seen as "persecuting" officers. Most politicians are basically cowards. The political process forces them to be and it selects the cowards over the heroes. That's why there were a lot of Republicans who privately admitted that Trump was evil, but would do nothing publicly do oppose him.

[realist]

Chauvin could only murder George Floyd once. The murder two count will be the sentencing count unless the judge for some reasons grants a new trial.

My wife has been watching the trial constantly on Court TV. She said that the pundits there said that he would be sentenced on the most serious charge, 2nd degree murder.

I wondered how/why they charged him on three different charges for the same act. Then I realized that, if his inevitable appeal is successful, an appeals court might set aside the 2nd degree murder charge, for some reason, leaving the other two in place. Had they only charged him with 2nd degree, he would go free. In that scenario, they still have the 3rd degree and manslaughter charges to sentence him on.

The appeal court can not “set him free.” They could grant a new trial. They can’t just decide he’s not guilty.

[Luke]

Many of us thought we had turned a corner when Obama was elected president. I remember how I never felt more proud of the United States than I did that night after it became clear that Obama had won the election. Sadly, it didn't take long for the backlash. I totally expect serious and violent backlash. But we cannot let that stop the momentum. It's time to clean up our police departments. Lots and lots of bad apples need to be removed from police departments all across this nation. I love all the people who are threatening that lots of police might resign. Good. The kind that would resign because of accountability are the kind we need to get rid of. So, I say let the resignations begin. They are not going to come soon enough for me.

As I have mentioned previously, I see the racists and white nationalist ideologies as a disease/virus/infection that is in the throughs of dying. What we have been experiencing since Obama is that the disease is seeing its demise and is lashing out, attempting to strike back on its final breaths (take a look at dying organizations/clubs from time to time and see what looks like a resurgence but with nastiness just before it collapses). It is also, in many ways, traveling the stages of grief. They see the end coming and are desperate to hold on to what they think they have known (people like to pick the deadly path because it seems old and comfortable instead of the new that brings them to a new life).

I have been poo-poo'd for this in the past as some see it as racism and hate coming back. Yes, it tries but it has not yet succeeded and with each new attempt, they lose more. Consider:

1. Obama was elected and then re-elected
2. Kamala Harris was elected
3. The Confederate Flag has fallen, even leaving the MS flag
3.5 (ETA) Monuments are falling and the work is afoot to rename bases.
4. The civil rights won during the 60's are generally intact (though eternal vigilance is needed on voting rights especially).
5. Racist acts in public, while on the surprise are looked down at by a vast majority of society
6. Racists are upset about being called racist (it is a social stigma)
7. From the tragedy of George Flloyd and others has come an upswell from a diverse segment of America in support of Black Lives Matters, from people, churches, and even corporations. My own day job has made statements in support of BLM and a diverse population.
8. DONALD TRUMP LOST!!!
9. While they try, the right keeps losing in the LGBT fight.
10. As they did during the Arizona MLK day stupidity, companies side with who they see are the majority of the people (i.e. the most customers) and punish states for their bad behaviors.
11. 15 years ago, would Chauvin even been charged?

Much more work is necessary, but never forget, the march continues to go forward. Freedom and liberty continue to win out over fear and hate. Always remember to stick your head briefly out of the trench, to see all that has been accomplished so far, and then press on.

Keep Hope Alive!

* Voted for Tuesday verdict. Proud of those jurors.

[bob]

The appeal court can not “set him free.” They could grant a new trial. They can’t just decide he’s not guilty.

In theory, an appellate court find reversible error. And that the error was attributable to the state, such that double jeopardy would apply.

In theory.

[chancery]

ISTR a homicide prosecution of a police officer in the last few years, somewhere in the midwest, that failed because of poor charging decisions. The evidence didn't quite justify the more serious of two charges, there was a technical reason why the lesser charge didn't work, and the prosecution had failed to include an intermediate charge that in all likelihood would have succeeded. Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Edit: The defendant might not have been a police officer, but there was a civil rights angle.

[Lani]

Just minutes before the Chauvin verdict, a 16yo teen was killed in Columbus, Ohio. Someone called 911 to report a female trying to stab him/her, then hung up. According to a neighbor near the house, the grandmother said she was outside with the girl who no longer had a knife. Police arrived and shot her. That neighbor also spoke with the person who lives next to him. Same thing. Saw the fight, saw her drop the knife, saw the police arrive and shot her.
https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/cri ... 309088002/

[Lani]

Apparently, the body cam video has been released tonight, but so far I can only find a description of it. Not that I want to see it....

In an unprecedented move, Columbus police showed body camera footage of the shooting of a 16-year-old girl by a Columbus police officer just hours after the incident on the Southeast Side.

The shooting, which happened about 20 minutes before a guilty verdict was announced in the trial of Derek Chauvin, a former Minneapolis police officer who killed George Floyd, prompted hundreds to protest at the shooting site and Downtown.

The video shows an officer approaching a driveway with a group of young people standing there. In the video, it appears that the 16-year-old, identified now as Ma’Khia Bryant, who was moments later shot by police, pushes or swings at a person, who falls to the ground.

Bryant then appears to swing a knife at a girl who is on the hood of a car, and the officer fires his weapon what sounds like four times, striking Bryant, who died a short time later.

"It's a tragic day in the city of Columbus. It's a horrible, heartbreaking situation," Mayor Andrew J. Ginther. "We felt transparency in sharing this footage, as incomplete as it is at this time" was critical.

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/cri ... 309088002/

ETA: I found a very brief clip from the cam - poor quality, out of focus. Teen girls were having a beef. The victim pushed a girl on a car hood. Police rush in. Not clear that there was a knife. No stabbing seen. Apparently, there are more body cam videos, not released yet.

This should be moved to a different thread, if a mod can do that for me. The connection with the Chauvin trial is that his happened minutes before the jury verdict was read.

[Kendra]

[MN-Skeptic]

I wonder how many pundits, like Carlson, were all revved up to report on what a disgrace the Black community in Minneapolis was for rioting after Chauvin was found not guilty. Now all his preparation and outrage is turned on its head. Instead he has to deal with Chauvin (i.e., the good White police officer) inexplicably found guilty. Worse yet, no riots by the always angry mobs of Black thugs.

I did notice that Fox News’ website criticizes Biden for praising the guilty verdict without mentioning the riots.

[bill_g]

Chauvin got away with so much for so many years I was not at all surprised at how shocked and confused he seemed to be at being found guilty of 2nd degree murder. I think he really thought he was going to get a hung jury. And when the verdict came back so fast I think he probably convinced himself he was going to totally get away with it.

[bill_g]

A reminder to Mr Cernovich - no white people died because Chauvin stood on their necks. None. Nada. Zilch.

Just wanted to point that out.

[fierceredpanda]

A nationwide police strike, you say? I haven't been on board the "defund the police" train (bad messaging, easily misconstrued by your average voter), but I'm entirely in favor of this. Within a few weeks, you'd have cops on the street with "Will beat up black/brown men for food" signs.

And sentiments like this are why, despite the fact that sometimes I really hate dealing with clients, I just couldn't be a prosecutor.

[Patagoniagirl]

For historical reference.

[Maybenaut]

The appeal court can not “set him free.” They could grant a new trial. They can’t just decide he’s not guilty.

In theory, an appellate court find reversible error. And that the error was attributable to the state, such that double jeopardy would apply.

In theory.

It’s not universally true that an appellate court “can’t just decide he’s not guilty.”

At least one state (Texas?) has factual sufficiency review. And we have it in the military. We get to argue that the evidence, even if legally sufficient, is not factually sufficient. The Court of Criminal Appeals can weigh the credibility of witnesses. They don’t defer to the trial court; they only take into consideration that they did not see or hear the testimony.

[noblepa]

Minutes before the Chauvin verdict was announced, police in Columbus, Ohio, shot and killed a 16 year old black girl that police say was brandishing a knife.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/21/us/ohio- ... index.html

Details are, of course, still sketchy, but the timing probably couldn't be worse, even if the shooting does turn out to be justified.

I hope that we are not in for another episode like the George Floyd/Derek Chauvin case. The optics are not good. The victim was a teenage girl, in foster care. If charges are filed, it will be difficult for the defense to shift the blame to her or to find other causes of death, as they did in Minneapolis.

[noblepa]

The appeal court can not “set him free.” They could grant a new trial. They can’t just decide he’s not guilty.

In theory, an appellate court find reversible error. And that the error was attributable to the state, such that double jeopardy would apply.

In theory.

It’s not universally true that an appellate court “can’t just decide he’s not guilty.”

At least one state (Texas?) has factual sufficiency review. And we have it in the military. We get to argue that the evidence, even if legally sufficient, is not factually sufficient. The Court of Criminal Appeals can weigh the credibility of witnesses. They don’t defer to the trial court; they only take into consideration that they did not see or hear the testimony.

And, even in states that don't allow such review, if an appeals court rules that, as a matter of law, the facts of the crime do not meet the criteria for the charge the defendant was convicted of, and the state chose to not charge a lesser, included offense, then the defendant can't be retried, due to double jeopardy.

That, in effect, would set the defendant free.

I think that, in the Chauvin case, the prosecutors tried to make their case as appeal-proof as possible. If an appeals court reverses the 2nd degree murder conviction, he can still be sentenced for the 3rd degree murder charge.

[Chilidog]

What a total asshole

[Tiredretiredlawyer]

Those handcuffs need to be made tighter.

With his hands twisted up as far as they can be bent!

WARNING! WARNING!These comments border on Trumpian.