Derek Chauvin trial: The murder of George Floyd

[RVInit]

I only caught the tail end of Dr. Tobin's testimony and it was so hard to watch.

We'll see how he stands up to cross.

I agree. Dr Tobin's testimony really hammered home how horrible Floyd's death really was. Chauvin knew exactly what he was doing.

[sterngard friegen]

Dr. Tobin, not merely a pulmonologist but also a breathing expert and critical care physician, is among the best expert witnesses I have ever seen. And I have seen hundreds. The direct examination was brilliant. Great expert; excellent lawyer.

The Irish lilt in his speech was a nice touch.

[p0rtia]

Thanks to RV and all who do summaries (without pictures--that's key).

I can't watch either (things happen to my BP and adrenal glands, which I'm trying to avoid), but I do want to keep tabs.

[RVInit]

I would be interested in knowing if others (hi, Stern! ) would agree with me that Dr Tobin stood up quite firmly under cross examination and pretty well closed the door on the idea that Floyd could have died from a fentanyl overdose, heart condition, etc. He was an exceptional witness, in my strictly layman point of view.

[sugar magnolia]

Ker-fucking-pow to the defense. Dr. Tobin was holding the football and the defense was Charlie Brown.

Nelson looked pretty flustered at times, and there were a lot of "no" responses from the good doctor. All in all, a pretty good day for the prosecution from what I can tell even though I didn't see direct. And a another question for our trial attorneys...is the number of hypothetical questions the defense asks usual? (And again, no throw paint cans at him questions today.)

[fierceredpanda]

I would be interested in knowing if others (hi, Stern! ) would agree with me that Dr Tobin stood up quite firmly under cross examination and pretty well closed the door on the idea that Floyd could have died from a fentanyl overdose, heart condition, etc. He was an exceptional witness, in my strictly layman point of view.

I'm not a layman, but I'm also nowhere near as experienced as Sterngard, and this is fairly close to my view. I might credit Tobin's performance under cross-examination more to ineptitude or desperation on Nelson's part than to his brilliance, but that's a quibble. I think Nelson was flailing and at times appearing to ask questions without knowing the answer the witness was going to give, then getting slightly frustrated at the answer. Other commentators elsewhere have said that Nelson has a habit of asking too many questions on cross, giving the State's witnesses openings to say more things that damage his client's case. Unless his goal was just to sew confusion and/or plant seeds for his own expert that will testify during the defense's case-in-chief, I thought it was a poor performance. Not ineffective-assistance-of-counsel bad, just "your client's chances of losing are greater this evening than they were this morning" bad.

[pipistrelle]

I would be interested in knowing if others (hi, Stern! ) would agree with me that Dr Tobin stood up quite firmly under cross examination and pretty well closed the door on the idea that Floyd could have died from a fentanyl overdose, heart condition, etc. He was an exceptional witness, in my strictly layman point of view.

https://thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 783#p10763

[sterngard friegen]

The cross-examination didn't lay a finger on Dr. Tobin.

[sugar magnolia]

I would be interested in knowing if others (hi, Stern! ) would agree with me that Dr Tobin stood up quite firmly under cross examination and pretty well closed the door on the idea that Floyd could have died from a fentanyl overdose, heart condition, etc. He was an exceptional witness, in my strictly layman point of view.

I'm not a layman, but I'm also nowhere near as experienced as Sterngard, and this is fairly close to my view. I might credit Tobin's performance under cross-examination more to ineptitude or desperation on Nelson's part than to his brilliance, but that's a quibble. I think Nelson was flailing and at times appearing to ask questions without knowing the answer the witness was going to give, then getting slightly frustrated at the answer. Other commentators elsewhere have said that Nelson has a habit of asking too many questions on cross, giving the State's witnesses openings to say more things that damage his client's case. Unless his goal was just to sew confusion and/or plant seeds for his own expert that will testify during the defense's case-in-chief, I thought it was a poor performance. Not ineffective-assistance-of-counsel bad, just "your client's chances of losing are greater this evening than they were this morning" bad.

And now he has overlooked an updated toxicology report he received 2 days ago and is apparently basing his questions on the old one. If you're too overworked or overwhelmed to read everything the prosecution sends you in a timely manner, maybe you should hire more people to help you? He even admitted to the judge he looked at and assumed it was a copy of the earlier version. That was either right before or right after he whined abut the prosecution sending him files in different formats.

[filly]

The cross-examination didn't lay a finger on Dr. Tobin.

Mr. Filly had some conSTERNation that Dr. Tobin estimated Chauvin's weight and the weight of his gear.

I'm not saying this is huge but my husband is definitely the average guy on the street with an engineering degree.

[sugar magnolia]

The cross-examination didn't lay a finger on Dr. Tobin.

Mr. Filly had some conSTERNation that Dr. Tobin estimated Chauvin's weight and the weight of his gear.

I'm not saying this is huge but my husband is definitely the average guy on the street with an engineering degree.

He didn't estimate his weight. The issue was he had 2 different weights listed on his records that Tobin was working from. He did say he estimated the gear weight from measurements though. I can tell you from experience that duty belts weigh almost exactly twice as much at the end of a shift as they do at the beginning.

[Volkonski]

White supremacists, extremists may use Chauvin trial to further their agendas: DHS
Some extremists have posted online about a "race war," DHS said.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-suprema ... itter_abcn

In an intelligence briefing obtained by ABC News, DHS analysts warn that domestic extremists -- including anarchists and white supremacists -- "may attempt to exploit activities and events surrounding the legal proceeding" and "violence could occur with little or no warning."

The briefing goes through the various types of extremists who it says might exploit the events. The agency warns that domestic violent extremists could commit violence during the trial, but "are more likely following the outcome of the trials associated with the death of George Floyd."

Some domestic extremist groups the briefing warns about include those who are adherents to the anti-government "boogaloo" movement. After the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol, the Justice Department announced the arrest of two militia members associated with the boogaloo movement, including one who allegedly sought to incite a riot in Louisville, Kentucky, during the Capitol riot.

DHS also concluded that violent anarchist extremists were likely to use the Chauvin trial, regardless of the outcome, to "incite others online" and "commit property damage against critical infrastructure, such as government facilities." The report also said that a "likely anarchist violent extremist" posted an image online threatening law enforcement in response to the trial.

[RVInit]

The cross-examination didn't lay a finger on Dr. Tobin.

Mr. Filly had some conSTERNation that Dr. Tobin estimated Chauvin's weight and the weight of his gear.

I'm not saying this is huge but my husband is definitely the average guy on the street with an engineering degree.

He didn't estimate his weight. The issue was he had 2 different weights listed on his records that Tobin was working from. He did say he estimated the gear weight from measurements though. I can tell you from experience that duty belts weigh almost exactly twice as much at the end of a shift as they do at the beginning.

Good one, sugar.

[Maybenaut]

I would be interested in knowing if others (hi, Stern! ) would agree with me that Dr Tobin stood up quite firmly under cross examination and pretty well closed the door on the idea that Floyd could have died from a fentanyl overdose, heart condition, etc. He was an exceptional witness, in my strictly layman point of view.

I'm not a layman, but I'm also nowhere near as experienced as Sterngard, and this is fairly close to my view. I might credit Tobin's performance under cross-examination more to ineptitude or desperation on Nelson's part than to his brilliance, but that's a quibble. I think Nelson was flailing and at times appearing to ask questions without knowing the answer the witness was going to give, then getting slightly frustrated at the answer. Other commentators elsewhere have said that Nelson has a habit of asking too many questions on cross, giving the State's witnesses openings to say more things that damage his client's case. Unless his goal was just to sew confusion and/or plant seeds for his own expert that will testify during the defense's case-in-chief, I thought it was a poor performance. Not ineffective-assistance-of-counsel bad, just "your client's chances of losing are greater this evening than they were this morning" bad.

The defense is almost never going to score points with the prosecution expert. The most effective cross-examinations of experts that I’ve seen are where the defense gets the expert to confirm something he’s already said, and then sits down. The defense then brings his own expert to say the opposite. Of course, if the defense doesn’t have an expert...

[LM K]

Today's testimony was beyond devastating for Chauvin. All 3 experts did a great job firmly debunking the drug overdose and/or heart disease bullshit.

Basically the defense 2 defenses left; the crowd and "George Floyd deserved it".

[Dr. Caligari]

The defense is almost never going to score points with the prosecution expert.

I've seen it done, chiefly where the expert either lied on their CV, or testified in a previous case to something the opposite of the position they are taking in the current trial. In a big civil case I tried a few years ago, my partner was in charge of the expert cross-examinations. After the plaintiff's expert had testified for most of the day, my partner got up and picked up the CV the plaintiff had put into evidence in order to qualify the witness as an expert. My partner had the expert confirm that the CV said he had graduated Harvard Business School with Honors. My partner then marked as an exhibit the graduation program from HBS from that year (which my partner had obtained from Harvard's alumni office), which showed that the expert had indeed graduated that year-- but not with honors. There was a lot more cross-examination, but the expert's credibility was already gone.

[sugar magnolia]

Today's testimony was beyond devastating for Chauvin. All 3 experts did a great job firmly debunking the drug overdose and/or heart disease bullshit.

Basically the defense 2 defenses left; the crowd and "George Floyd deserved it".

I'm guessing the I-was-scared-of-the-crowd excuse will be pretty weak too after the law enforcement faction testified the other day. Or if the jury just looks at the video of the HUGE (a dozen or fewer) CROWD!!!??!!!! who was so violent and out of control that a couple of them even stepped off the curb, and one of them called Chauvin a BUM!!!

[Maybenaut]

Today's testimony was beyond devastating for Chauvin. All 3 experts did a great job firmly debunking the drug overdose and/or heart disease bullshit.

Basically the defense 2 defenses left; the crowd and "George Floyd deserved it".

I'm guessing the I-was-scared-of-the-crowd excuse will be pretty weak too after the law enforcement faction testified the other day. Or if the jury just looks at the video of the HUGE (a dozen or fewer) CROWD!!!??!!!! who was so violent and out of control that a couple of them even stepped off the curb, and one of them called Chauvin a BUM!!!

I don’t even understand the I-was-scared-of-the-crowd defense. Even if he was scared of the crowd, he could still have lifted his knee off of Floyd’s neck without endangering himself.

[RVInit]

Apparently two previous instances from Chauvin's past have been approved by the judge to be entered into evidence. In one instance, apparently Chauvin demonstrates the appropriate handling of a person who is cuffed on the ground - immediately turning him over onto his side so he could breathe. The other instance is his handling of a woman who was non-compliant where he did the same thing as he did to Floyd, except apparently not long enough for her to die from it.

The prosecution wanted eight examples from Chauvin's past to be put in front of the jury, but only these two are going to be allowed. Should be interesting.

[Patagoniagirl]

Chauvin- Chappelle. I think this is relevant ànd powerful.

[LM K]

I'm watching Dr. Tobin's testimony. Some of the pics are new to me.

George Floyd was tortured to death.

[RVInit]

I'm watching Dr. Tobin's testimony. Some of the pics are new to me.

George Floyd was tortured to death.

Yes. I was blown away when the testimony and closeup photos of how Chauvin was squeezing Floyd's fingers together while pulling his hand backwards was shocking and sickening. This really was truly depraved behavior exhibited by Chauvin. I am cautiously hopeful that he may actually end up convicted.

[LM K]

I'm watching Dr. Tobin's testimony. Some of the pics are new to me.

George Floyd was tortured to death.

Yes. I was blown away when the testimony and closeup photos of how Chauvin was squeezing Floyd's fingers together while pulling his hand backwards was shocking and sickening. This really was truly depraved behavior exhibited by Chauvin. I am cautiously hopeful that he may actually end up convicted.

I'm optimistic that he'll be convicted of 2nd degree manslaughter. After today's testimony, I think a 3rd degree murder is a strong possiblity.

I can't see a 2nd degree murder verdict for a cop in this situation. I don't see all 12 jurors saying yes to 2nd degree murder.

[sugar magnolia]

Dr. Thomas is absolutely adorable.

Also, is it a Minnesota thing to start sentences with "So" all the time? I've noticed several of the witnesses who do that.

[pipistrelle]

Dr. Thomas is absolutely adorable.

Also, is it a Minnesota thing to start sentences with "So" all the time? I've noticed several of the witnesses who do that.

It’s, like, a growing American, you know, speech tic.