Military Guarding Mexico border

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Mikedunford
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#26

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:13 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:58 pm
Will they be sent to shoot people or just strong-arm them back across the border?
Due process kicks in once the border is crossed. So, particularly at the river crossings, the only method of avoiding all that pesky Constitution stuff is to order troops to shoot unarmed men, women, and children. And or shoot their rafts and watch them drown.


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Judge Roy Bean
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#27

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:21 pm

A little background:

2014
http://www.themonitor.com/news/local/ar ... b2370.html

2017
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your ... ng-border/

Who knows what's going on at this point - obviously there are turf issues among all the players and as always, who pays for what will have to be sorted out.


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bob
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#28

Post by bob » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:21 pm

WaPo (in 2011): National Guard deployment on U.S.-Mexico border has mixed results:
President Obama’s decision last year to send 1,200 National Guard troops to the U.S.-Mexico border may have been smart politics, but a growing number of skeptics say the deployment is an expensive and inefficient mission that has made little difference in homeland security.

* * *

Most of the criticism of the deployment focuses on its costs and benefits. The 1,200 National Guard troops have helped Border Patrol agents apprehend 25,514 illegal immigrants at a cost of $160 million — or $6,271 for each person caught.

* * *

While citizens might imagine the National Guard patrolling the muddy cane breaks along the Rio Grande in search of drug cartel incursions, many of the troops instead serve as stationary observers, a kind of neighborhood watch with M-16s, often perched 30 feet in the air in skyboxes, portable watchtowers the size of phone booths.

* * *

Other troops work the telephones and computers in back offices, as clerks in camouflage.

According to rules of engagement set by the Pentagon, Guard troops are not allowed to pursue, confront or detain suspects, including illegal immigrants, or investigate crimes, make arrests, stop and search vehicles, or seize drugs. Nor do they check Mexico-bound vehicles for bulk cash or smuggled weapons headed to the drug cartels.

“We are the eyes and ears, mainly. We do not have a law enforcement role,” said Maj. Gen. Hugo E. Salazar, head of the Arizona National Guard, who said that his 560 soldiers in Arizona mostly act as an “entry identification team,” watching the border fence.

When the Guard troops spot suspicious activity, they radio Border Patrol agents, who make the apprehensions and drug seizures.

“We don’t chase anybody,” Salazar said.

* * *

In an August report on the costs and benefits of an increased role for the Defense Department along the U.S.-Mexico border, the Government Accountability Office told Congress that it takes three people to do the job of one: two Guard soldiers to spot an illegal crosser and one federal agent to catch him.
And:
Under the George W. Bush administration’s Operation Jump Start, more than 6,000 troops were sent to the border between 2006 and 2008, at a cost of $1.2 billion, and they dedicated themselves to building miles of fence and roads.


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Maybenaut
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#29

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:23 pm

Suranis wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 pm
Helicopter an Aircfaft Carrier over and drop it in the middle of the Border. Easy.
That’s how they’d avoid the posse commitatus problem. The Posse Comitatus Act, by its terms, only applies to the Army and Air Force (although all services follow it by policy). The Coast Guard is both a military service and a law enforcement agency, although its law enforcement authority is limited.



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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#30

Post by neeneko » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:30 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:13 pm
Due process kicks in once the border is crossed. So, particularly at the river crossings, the only method of avoiding all that pesky Constitution stuff is to order troops to shoot unarmed men, women, and children. And or shoot their rafts and watch them drown.
That is probably what Trump is fantasizing about.

if I was going to turn this into a bad political thriller, I would have Mexico get nervous at the US massing troops along its border and deploy its own military, with an escalation of shots being fired at civilians across the border by both sides.

Luckily, I think an actual deployment (of even the national guard) would be more paperwork than Trump is going to be willing to do.



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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#31

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:45 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:23 pm
Suranis wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:24 pm
Helicopter an Aircfaft Carrier over and drop it in the middle of the Border. Easy.
That’s how they’d avoid the posse commitatus problem. The Posse Comitatus Act, by its terms, only applies to the Army and Air Force (although all services follow it by policy). The Coast Guard is both a military service and a law enforcement agency, although its law enforcement authority is limited.
:twisted: One could ask the military regime in Thailand to lease their single submarine and to deploy it on the Rio Grande. Currently they don't have any use for it.
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Estiveo
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#32

Post by Estiveo » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:52 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:58 pm
Will they be sent to shoot people or just strong-arm them back across the border?
Well, bullets are cheap and it's not like Mexico is sending their best people...


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RVInit
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#33

Post by RVInit » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:59 pm

Here is an interesting article about the use of military at the border

https://www.thoughtco.com/posse-comitat ... er-3321286

The last paragraph of the article:
Posse Comitatus Act and the US Military on the Border
What the National Guard Can and Cannot Do
by Robert Longley
Updated August 04, 2017
:snippity: (quite a bit)

Where Congress Stands On the Posse Comitatus Act
On Oct. 25, 2005, the House of Representatives and Senate enacted a joint resolution (H. CON. RES. 274) clarifying Congress' stance on the effect of the Posse Comitatus Act on the use of the military on U.S. soil. In part, the resolution states "by its express terms, the Posse Comitatus Act is not a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement functions, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determines that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President's obligations under the Constitution to respond promptly in time of war, insurrection, or other serious emergency."​


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#34

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:04 pm

Ahhh - insurrection! Those folks wandering north are standing up against the US Immigration Laws! Need more fighter planes!



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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#35

Post by TollandRCR » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:07 pm

The whole idea is absurd and cruel.


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much ado
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#36

Post by much ado » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:11 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:13 pm
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:58 pm
Will they be sent to shoot people or just strong-arm them back across the border?
Due process kicks in once the border is crossed. So, particularly at the river crossings, the only method of avoiding all that pesky Constitution stuff is to order troops to shoot unarmed men, women, and children. And or shoot their rafts and watch them drown.
Um... But wouldn't that be a violation of Mexican sovereignty? Are American troops permitted to shoot people who are in Mexico?



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Dolly
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#37

Post by Dolly » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:24 pm

Mexico formally asks US to clarify Trump's border remarks

Mexico's ambassador to the U.S. said Tuesday that his country has formally asked the Trump administration to clarify the president's announcement that he is planning to deploy troops along the U.S. southern border.

"The Mexican government has formally asked for clarification of the president's statements, both through the State Department and the Homeland Security Department," Gerónimo Gutiérrez said on CNN International, adding that he had personally spoken to Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen.

"The important thing is that both countries share the idea of having a secure border," he added. "We don't always agree in how to achieve that objective, and I do expect that, in the next few hours, we will get clarification on this issue."

Gutiérrez's comments came shortly after President Trump said he plans to deploy U.S. troops along the southern border to prevent unauthorized crossings into the country until his proposed border wall is built.

Such a move would dramatically escalate the U.S. presence along the border, which is currently protected by the U.S. Border Patrol.

Gutiérrez said that militarizing the U.S.-Mexico border would not be welcomed by the Mexican government, but added that further clarification by the Trump administration was necessary to determine "where we are." <SNIP>
http://thehill.com/policy/international ... er-remarks


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Mikedunford
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#38

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:30 pm

much ado wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:11 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:13 pm
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:58 pm
Will they be sent to shoot people or just strong-arm them back across the border?
Due process kicks in once the border is crossed. So, particularly at the river crossings, the only method of avoiding all that pesky Constitution stuff is to order troops to shoot unarmed men, women, and children. And or shoot their rafts and watch them drown.
Um... But wouldn't that be a violation of Mexican sovereignty? Are American troops permitted to shoot people who are in Mexico?
It would be an act of war and a war crime.


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#39

Post by much ado » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:34 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:30 pm
much ado wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:11 pm
Mikedunford wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:13 pm


Due process kicks in once the border is crossed. So, particularly at the river crossings, the only method of avoiding all that pesky Constitution stuff is to order troops to shoot unarmed men, women, and children. And or shoot their rafts and watch them drown.
Um... But wouldn't that be a violation of Mexican sovereignty? Are American troops permitted to shoot people who are in Mexico?
It would be an act of war and a war crime.
You're such a pessimist, always looking at the downside.



TexasFilly
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#40

Post by TexasFilly » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm

And where exactly will these federal troops be housed? Is Sheriff Joe gonna run a tent city for our troops in the Arizona and Texas summers? What about all of the private landowners who will have federal troops occupying their properties? Any legal problems with that?


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#41

Post by Maybenaut » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:18 pm

TexasFilly wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm
And where exactly will these federal troops be housed? Is Sheriff Joe gonna run a tent city for our troops in the Arizona and Texas summers? What about all of the private landowners who will have federal troops occupying their properties? Any legal problems with that?
Well, they obviously can’t house them in people’s homes. That would be a violation of the third amendment prohibition on quartering of troops. But if they roll in and set up tents or temporary housing in conex boxes or whatever, I think that would at least be a taking under the fifth amendment and the government would have to compensate the landowner for that. But what does customs and border protection do currently? I’m sure they have to enter people’s private property in order to do their jobs.



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Judge Roy Bean
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#42

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:21 pm

TexasFilly wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm
And where exactly will these federal troops be housed? Is Sheriff Joe gonna run a tent city for our troops in the Arizona and Texas summers? What about all of the private landowners who will have federal troops occupying their properties? Any legal problems with that?
The military units that would probably deploy are pretty much self-contained.

And most of Arizona's and New Mexico's southern border is federal land and so is a lot of California's.

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TexasFilly
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#43

Post by TexasFilly » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:28 pm



I love the poorly educated!!!

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TexasFilly
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#44

Post by TexasFilly » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:30 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:21 pm
TexasFilly wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:55 pm
And where exactly will these federal troops be housed? Is Sheriff Joe gonna run a tent city for our troops in the Arizona and Texas summers? What about all of the private landowners who will have federal troops occupying their properties? Any legal problems with that?
The military units that would probably deploy are pretty much self-contained. :?:

And most of Arizona's and New Mexico's southern border is federal land and so is a lot of California's.

Image

Cartography by Eric Leinberger
And Texas? As we know from discussion about "The Wall" much of Texas' border has land that is privately owned. And Texas is not an inconsequential part of the border.


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Res Ipsa
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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#45

Post by Res Ipsa » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:35 pm

Given the extent of private property along the border, this could lead to some really cool 3rd Amendment cases.

Where is Trump planning to have these troops camp out?


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#46

Post by TexasFilly » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:44 pm

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:35 pm
Given the extent of private property along the border, this could lead to some really cool 3rd Amendment cases.

Where is Trump planning to have these troops camp out?
These are the same questions I asked (and some responded to) just a few places upthread.


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#47

Post by TollandRCR » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:55 pm

I am not at home but would love hugs. This is a horrible time.


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#48

Post by Foggy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:00 pm

:bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug: :bighug:


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#49

Post by Gregg » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:26 pm

You'd think with our troops already spread over half the globe it might be a little bit of a strain to deploy an army on the border.


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Re: Military to guard Mexico border?

#50

Post by Hektor » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:42 pm

Jeez, libtards the whole so-called 3rd amendment issues (which isn't even in the original constitution) is a moot point since the President will just call S.H.I.E.L.D. and deploy some Helicarriers and operate from the federally-owned sky.



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