DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#401

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:21 pm

Res was merely pointing out that wild speculation about Epstein's sex ring does not become us. And from there this has escalated. Let's try to be civil with each other.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#402

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:16 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:21 pm
Res was merely pointing out that wild speculation about Epstein's sex ring does not become us. And from there this has escalated. Let's try to be civil with each other.
:thumbs: :grouphug:


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#403

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:23 pm

Every time I see this kind of thing blow up I'm reminded of Henry the 4th (part II) wherein the non-person Rumour reaches the castle of the Earl of Northumberland - he being a part of a dangerous conspiracy to overthrow Henry. Northumberland's son was defeated by the king but the gossip has opposite news as Rumour has come to report that the Earl's son won the day and is still safe.
“Rumour is a pipe
Blown by surmises, jealousies, conjectures
And of so easy and so plain a stop
That the blunt monster with uncounted heads,
The still-discordant wavering multitude,
Can play upon it.”
Ah, yes ... surmises ... jealousies ... conjectures.

Let the feeding frenzy go on! :cantlook:


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#404

Post by Jeffrey » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:45 am

I'm with Ipsa, the indictment only talks about Epstein himself and employees he used to facilitate his own lechery. There's no positive evidence or hints that others may be dragged into it. The fact that it's possible that others may be dragged into it isn't sufficient.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#405

Post by Addie » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:03 am

Associated Press
Billionaire's New Mexico ranch linked to investigation

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. (AP) — At the center of Jeffrey Epstein's secluded New Mexico ranch sits a sprawling residence the financier built decades ago — complete with plans for a 4,000-square-foot (372-square-meter) courtyard, a living room roughly the size of the average American home and a nearby private airplane runway.

Known as the Zorro Ranch, the high-desert property is now tied to an investigation that the state attorney general's office says it has opened into Epstein with plans to forward findings to federal authorities in New York.

Epstein, who pleaded not guilty this week to federal sex trafficking charges in New York, has not faced criminal charges in New Mexico. But the scandal surrounding him has still sent a jolt through the rural Southwestern state as it comes under scrutiny for laws that allowed him to avoid registering as a sex offender following a guilty plea a decade ago in Florida. ...

In addition to confirming his office had interviewed possible victims of Epstein who visited his ranch south of Santa Fe, Balderas' spokesman also said Friday that the attorney general would renew his push for legislation requiring anyone with a sex trafficking conviction to register as a sex offender in New Mexico.
Adding:
ABQ Journal (Jan 6 2015): Sex slave suit: NM was a location used

SANTA FE – Lawsuit claims about young female sex slaves allegedly kept by billionaire investor Jeffrey Epstein and offered to a worldwide list of the rich and famous have reached New Mexico.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#406

Post by listeme » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:40 am

Honestly, I think some of it is fueled by the sex trafficking charges. People hear sex trafficking and think "young people sold for sex" ---> "to other people" ---> "zomg who??"

Since I'm not at all clear on the nuances myself, I sympathize (and am still not sure which of the acts Epstein is accused of in the current case actually fall under sex trafficking.)


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#407

Post by RoadScholar » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:30 am

Nobody here has engaged in “wild speculation.” Only reasonable speculation. Men seeking underage girls is an appallingly common phenomenon. Speculating that Jeffrey was throwing parties where other rich men could have intercourse with underage girls is not unreasonable.

And yet Res compared doing so with

1) The McMartin Free School hysteria
2) The Salem Witch Trials
3) The Q conspiracy theory
4) The demonizing of minority groups, and
5) Anti-semitic propagandizing.

I took exception to that, even suggesting that in all likelihood using the term “pedophile” is improper for what Jeffrey was doing, but “sexual predator” might be, extending him and his pals the benefit of the doubt. (Although creating video collections labeled with individual girls’ names is something pedophiles do.).

Res responded with condescension (calling me “sweetie”) and implying that I am too stupid to see the obvious, undeniable connection between our conjectures about what went on at Epstein’s parties and all of the above.

I returned some mocking hyperbole. That may have been over the top, but I refuse to tolerate being insulted for suggesting that, when the facts come to light, my speculation about Jeffrey fucking Epstein having underage sex parties attended by men other than himself will have been right on the mark.

So go ahead, folks. Jump on my head again for that. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not around to see it.


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#408

Post by Chilidog » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:40 am

I'm with RS on this one.

While I can appreciate the point that it's early and pointless to engage in wild speculation, I found Res's method of expressing this point condescending, overwrought, and extremely obnoxious.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#409

Post by Addie » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:49 am

Roadie :like:



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#410

Post by Slim Cognito » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:54 am

Me three, after RS, CD and Addie.

Pizzagate was wild speculation. We know Epstein groomed, molested and raped underage teens. There are also lots of questions as to how Epstein actually made his money. Speculating Epstein found a way to tie these together isn't any more out of line than speculating a down-spiraling, narcissistic dictator-wanna-be would start a war with Iran if it ensured his reelection.

And maybe I missed them, but I didn't read any posts on TFB with lists of people guaranteed to be locked up over this. But I sure as hell read a lot of posts like that by MAGAts who knew Clinton, et al, were going to the hoosegow over Pizzagate.

Also too, TFB is going to get very boring if people are only allowed to quote fact checks. Heck, the first thing to go would have to be all that speculatin' about who's going under the bus next.

Shorter version: I think the speculation ratio here is pretty fair.


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#411

Post by Addie » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:05 am

Daily Beast: Jeffrey Epstein Dodged Questions About Sex With His Dalton Prep-School Students

As a teacher, Epstein dazzled parents at Dalton with his math genius and piano skills. But in later depositions, he balked at questions about relations with his students.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#412

Post by Kendra » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:41 am

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/nyre ... acher.html
In the mid-1970s, students at one of New York’s most esteemed prep schools were surprised to encounter a new teacher who pushed the limits on the school’s strict dress code, wandering the halls in a fur coat, gold chains and an open shirt that exposed his chest.

The teacher, Jeffrey Epstein, would decades later face allegations that he coerced and trafficked teenagers for sex. At the Dalton School on the Upper East Side, some students saw Mr. Epstein as an unusual and unsettling figure, willing to violate the norms in his encounters with girls.

Eight former students who attended the prestigious school during Mr. Epstein’s short tenure there said that his conduct with teenage girls had left an impression that had lingered for decades. One former student recalled him showing up at a party where students were drinking, while most remembered his persistent attention on the girls in hallways and classrooms.

“I can remember thinking at the time, ‘This is wrong,’” said Scott Spizer, who graduated from Dalton in 1976.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#413

Post by Jeffrey » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:56 am

listeme wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:40 am
Since I'm not at all clear on the nuances myself, I sympathize (and am still not sure which of the acts Epstein is accused of in the current case actually fall under sex trafficking.)
Sex trafficking just means you moved girls from one state to another in order to have sex with them. It doesn’t in this case mean selling girls to other people.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#414

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:11 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:56 am
listeme wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:40 am
Since I'm not at all clear on the nuances myself, I sympathize (and am still not sure which of the acts Epstein is accused of in the current case actually fall under sex trafficking.)
Sex trafficking just means you moved girls from one state to another in order to have sex with them. It doesn’t in this case mean selling girls to other people.
One to state to another isn't even necessary.
The U.S. Government defines human trafficking as:
•Sex trafficking in which a commercial sex act is induced by force, fraud, or coercion, or in which the person induced to perform such act has not attained 18 years of age.
https://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/human- ... lcome.aspx



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#415

Post by Reality Check » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:27 am

I agree that bringing up Pizzagate as a comparison to speculation re: Epstein was absurd.

Is it stupid to speculate that any of the 28 "calendar girls" who attended a private party with Trump and Epstein at Mar-a-Lago in 1992 were under 18?


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#416

Post by ZekeB » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:32 am

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:11 am
One to state to another isn't even necessary.
I would think it would be necessary to cross state lines before it becomes a federal offense, yes?


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#417

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:36 am

ZekeB wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:32 am
Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:11 am
One to state to another isn't even necessary.
I would think it would be necessary to cross state lines before it becomes a federal offense, yes?
Not according to the DoJ definition I posted above.
https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking
Human Trafficking is a crime that involves exploiting a person for labor, services, or commercial sex.

The Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000 and its subsequent reauthorizations define human trafficking as:

a) Sex trafficking in which a commercial sex act is induced by force, fraud, or coercion, or in which the person induced to perform such act has not attained 18 years of age; or

b) The recruitment, harboring, transportation, provision, or obtaining of a person for labor or services, through the use of force, fraud, or coercion for the purpose of subjection to involuntary servitude, peonage, debt bondage, or slavery. (22 U.S.C. § 7102(9)).



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#418

Post by Jeffrey » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:37 am

ZekeB wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:32 am
I would think it would be necessary to cross state lines before it becomes a federal offense, yes?
I’m guessing it’s like drugs where selling drugs in one state affects the price of drugs across the border so it’s all federal.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#419

Post by listeme » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am

I promise I'm not trying to be dense here. What in the charges equals trafficking? (As opposed to soliciting prostitution, for example.) What's the thing that distinguishes it as sex trafficking? Is it that other people acquired them for him? Does that make him a trafficker?

(Nor am I trying to gotcha. I'm just trying to get it straight in my own mind, as I'm definitely someone who would have thought of it as, you know, more like renting out/selling women to OTHER PEOPLE. It's unfortunate, but I think this is a common misunderstanding.)


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#420

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:01 pm

listeme wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am
I promise I'm not trying to be dense here. What in the charges equals trafficking? (As opposed to soliciting prostitution, for example.) What's the thing that distinguishes it as sex trafficking? Is it that other people acquired them for him? Does that make him a trafficker?

(Nor am I trying to gotcha. I'm just trying to get it straight in my own mind, as I'm definitely someone who would have thought of it as, you know, more like renting out/selling women to OTHER PEOPLE. It's unfortunate, but I think this is a common misunderstanding.)
At least part of it is the age. Minors can't consent to prostitution, they can only be coerced or threatened or whatever. It may have something to do with the passage of the crime victims sex act in defining or changing the terminology, too. But IANAL.



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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#421

Post by listeme » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:07 pm

Like illegal drug use and illegal drug trafficking -- those seem to be illicit use of drug A versus selling drug A to other people. Maybe I have those wrong too :)

But it's a construct that makes sense to me, and I wouldn't think twice about extending this construct.

I think it's all very unclear. I'm going to go move stuff around outside and think about definitions.


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#422

Post by Slim Cognito » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:18 pm

listeme wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am
I promise I'm not trying to be dense here. What in the charges equals trafficking? (As opposed to soliciting prostitution, for example.) What's the thing that distinguishes it as sex trafficking? Is it that other people acquired them for him? Does that make him a trafficker?

(Nor am I trying to gotcha. I'm just trying to get it straight in my own mind, as I'm definitely someone who would have thought of it as, you know, more like renting out/selling women to OTHER PEOPLE. It's unfortunate, but I think this is a common misunderstanding.)
I appreciate you asking, as I'm learning as well. And if we post questions, or speculations, about certain situations, we're lucky enough (usually) to have an expert on the subject somewhere in the community who can clear things up. It sure as hell beats having to touch a hot stove.


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#423

Post by Maybenaut » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:19 pm

listeme wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:56 am
I promise I'm not trying to be dense here. What in the charges equals trafficking? (As opposed to soliciting prostitution, for example.) What's the thing that distinguishes it as sex trafficking? Is it that other people acquired them for him? Does that make him a trafficker?

(Nor am I trying to gotcha. I'm just trying to get it straight in my own mind, as I'm definitely someone who would have thought of it as, you know, more like renting out/selling women to OTHER PEOPLE. It's unfortunate, but I think this is a common misunderstanding.)
The best way to understand it is to go back and look at the indictment and the statute. The indictment says he is alleged to have conspired to engage in sex trafficking in violation of 18 U.S.C. Sec. 1591(a) and (b). It also says he engaged in sex trafficking in violation of 18 U.S.C Sec. "1591(a), (b)(2), and 2." I think there's a typo in there.

18 U.S.C. Sec. 1591 says,
(a) Whoever knowingly—

(1) in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States, recruits, entices, harbors, transports, provides, obtains, advertises, maintains, patronizes, or solicits by any means a person; or

(2) benefits, financially or by receiving anything of value, from participation in a venture which has engaged in an act described in violation of paragraph (1),

knowing, or, except where the act constituting the violation of paragraph (1) is advertising, in reckless disregard of the fact, that means of force, threats of force, fraud, coercion described in subsection (e)(2), or any combination of such means will be used to cause the person to engage in a commercial sex act, or that the person has not attained the age of 18 years and will be caused to engage in a commercial sex act, shall be punished as provided in subsection (b).

(b) The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) is—

(1) if the offense was effected by means of force, threats of force, fraud, or coercion described in subsection (e)(2), or by any combination of such means, or if the person recruited, enticed, harbored, transported, provided, obtained, advertised, patronized, or solicited had not attained the age of 14 years at the time of such offense, by a fine under this title and imprisonment for any term of years not less than 15 or for life; or

(2) if the offense was not so effected, and the person recruited, enticed, harbored, transported, provided, obtained, advertised, patronized, or solicited had attained the age of 14 years but had not attained the age of 18 years at the time of such offense, by a fine under this title and imprisonment for not less than 10 years or for life.

(c) In a prosecution under subsection (a)(1) in which the defendant had a reasonable opportunity to observe the person so recruited, enticed, harbored, transported, provided, obtained, maintained, patronized, or solicited, the Government need not prove that the defendant knew, or recklessly disregarded the fact, that the person had not attained the age of 18 years.

(d) Whoever obstructs, attempts to obstruct, or in any way interferes with or prevents the enforcement of this section, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for a term not to exceed 25 years, or both.

(e) In this section:

(1) The term “abuse or threatened abuse of law or legal process” means the use or threatened use of a law or legal process, whether administrative, civil, or criminal, in any manner or for any purpose for which the law was not designed, in order to exert pressure on another person to cause that person to take some action or refrain from taking some action.

(2) The term “coercion” means—

(A) threats of serious harm to or physical restraint against any person;

(B) any scheme, plan, or pattern intended to cause a person to believe that failure to perform an act would result in serious harm to or physical restraint against any person; or

(C) the abuse or threatened abuse of law or the legal process.

(3) The term “commercial sex act” means any sex act, on account of which anything of value is given to or received by any person.

(4) The term “participation in a venture” means knowingly assisting, supporting, or facilitating a violation of subsection (a)(1).

(5) The term “serious harm” means any harm, whether physical or nonphysical, including psychological, financial, or reputational harm, that is sufficiently serious, under all the surrounding circumstances, to compel a reasonable person of the same background and in the same circumstances to perform or to continue performing commercial sexual activity in order to avoid incurring that harm.

(6) The term “venture” means any group of two or more individuals associated in fact, whether or not a legal entity.
The indictment lists the facts that the government expects to prove in support of the charge, including the "overt acts" necessary to prove the conspiracy, as well as the facts necessary to prove up the trafficking charge. I'm not going to reproduce the whole thing here, but the facts are listed in the indictment if you're interested in reading it.


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#424

Post by ZekeB » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:30 pm

Okay. I noticed the words "interstate or foreign commerce." I was interested in knowing if the 2008 crimes only took place in Florida.


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Re: DOJ Investigation: Re Jeffrey Epstein Plea Deal; 2008 SDFL; 2019 SDNY

#425

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:33 pm

Did Dershowitz admit to getting "a massage" at Epstein's house in Florida? https://crooksandliars.com/2019/07/alan ... ear-during

I hope there is a complete investigation that includes Dershowitz, Starr, Acosta and any other enablers.



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