USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

User avatar
Sugar Magnolia
Posts: 12005
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:44 am

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1576

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Somerset wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:50 pm
GreatGrey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:21 pm So far, Sunday evening, there is nothing on PACER from DOJ about commutation.

Oh, and there’s this

Is applying for commutation necessary to have a sentence commuted?
Seems like someone would have noticed that before now.
User avatar
bob
Posts: 30325
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1577

Post by bob »

There's a world of difference between what's required for no-name criminals and the impeached president's friends.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2
User avatar
AndyinPA
Posts: 6302
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1578

Post by AndyinPA »

:yeah:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine
User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 6611
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1579

Post by Maybenaut »

GreatGrey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:21 pm So far, Sunday evening, there is nothing on PACER from DOJ about commutation.

Oh, and there’s this

Yeah, but that doesn’t mean anything. The President’s commutation power isn’t fettered by DOJ regulation.
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 17807
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1580

Post by Kendra »

!!! Judge Amy Berman Jackson wants to see Roger Stone's commutation paperwork, after questions have arisen about whether President Trump's clemency covers only Stone's prison time or also his probation. US Probation Office has raised questions about the commutation
@kpolantz
User avatar
RTH10260
Posts: 28972
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Near the Swiss Alps

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1581

Post by RTH10260 »

Do I see Barr's slaves rushing to reword the initial clemency to include a total white washing of this felon? Or is impotus' order so public and badly worded that they are facing the impossible?
User avatar
Dan1100
Posts: 3995
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1583

Post by Dan1100 »

Maybenaut wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:40 pm
GreatGrey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:21 pm So far, Sunday evening, there is nothing on PACER from DOJ about commutation.

Oh, and there’s this

https://twitter.com/jgeltzer/status/1282156581799563264
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean anything. The President’s commutation power isn’t fettered by DOJ regulation.
And yet a Federal Grand Jury's power to indict the President* is. :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:
User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 6611
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:58 am
Location: Maybelot

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1584

Post by Maybenaut »

Dan1100 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:30 pm
Maybenaut wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:40 pm
GreatGrey wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:21 pm So far, Sunday evening, there is nothing on PACER from DOJ about commutation.

Oh, and there’s this

https://twitter.com/jgeltzer/status/1282156581799563264
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean anything. The President’s commutation power isn’t fettered by DOJ regulation.
And yet a Federal Grand Jury's power to indict the President* is. :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:
Well, not really. The Grand Jury doesn't sit around and decide to start indicting people (see, Trussell, Terry). It only acts with respect to the cases presented to it. And it's the DOJ who does the presenting, and their authority is fettered by their policies (when they want it to be, so the result is the same -- :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall: ).
"Hey! You know, we left this England place because it was bogus. So if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too." - Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
GreatGrey
Posts: 10573
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:06 am
Location: Living in the Anthropocene

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1585

Post by GreatGrey »

Here’s the commutation order, Stone isn’t even gonna have to pay the fine.

https://www.justice.gov/pardon/page/fil ... 6/download
I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.
Grumpy Old Guy
Posts: 3310
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:24 am
Occupation: Retired, unemployed, never a lawyer

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1586

Post by Grumpy Old Guy »

This could take a while, bureaucracy being what it is:
I ALSO DIRECT the Pretrial Services Office, upon receipt of this warrant, to
effect immediately the release of the said ROGER JASON STONE, JR., from
supervision, and all conditions imposed, including home confinement, with all possible
speed.
User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 17807
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1587

Post by Kendra »


NEW—Last week Attorney General Bill Barr described Roger Stone’s sentence as “fair”.

Just now he had no comment on the President’s decision to commute Stone:
Addie
Posts: 44448
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:22 am
Location: downstairs

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1588

Post by Addie »

The Atlantic: The Traditional Interpretation of the Pardon Power Is Wrong

Properly understood, the commutation of Roger Stone’s sentence is unconstitutional.
"The very least you can do in your life is to figure out what you hope for." - Barbara Kingsolver
User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III
Occupation: Criminal defense attorney - I am not your lawyer, and my posts do not constitute legal advice

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1589

Post by fierceredpanda »

Addie wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:14 am
The Atlantic: The Traditional Interpretation of the Pardon Power Is Wrong

Properly understood, the commutation of Roger Stone’s sentence is unconstitutional.
I read that article. I disagree with its conclusions, but it's an interesting case. I think the text of the Constitution is pretty clear that the President's pardon and commutation power is more or less absolute, and the sole check on abuses of that power is impeachment. The only exception is that the President cannot pardon himself or other officials out of an impeachment, which makes sense because any other interpretation would render Congress' impeachment power meaningless.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
Gregg
Posts: 4380
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:09 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
Occupation: We build cars

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1590

Post by Gregg »

fierceredpanda wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:38 am
Addie wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:14 am
The Atlantic: The Traditional Interpretation of the Pardon Power Is Wrong

Properly understood, the commutation of Roger Stone’s sentence is unconstitutional.
I read that article. I disagree with its conclusions, but it's an interesting case. I think the text of the Constitution is pretty clear that the President's pardon and commutation power is more or less absolute, and the sole check on abuses of that power is impeachment. The only exception is that the President cannot pardon himself or other officials out of an impeachment, which makes sense because any other interpretation would render Congress' impeachment power meaningless.
IANAL but Impeachment is not a criminal action, no jeopardy attaches to an impeached official and a Pardon wouldn't apply to it, as well after a conviction in an impeachment you could still accept a Pardon, either before or after a criminal action.
Right?
Honorary Commander, 699th Airborne Assault Dachshund Regiment
Deadly Sausage Dogs from the Sky
User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III
Occupation: Criminal defense attorney - I am not your lawyer, and my posts do not constitute legal advice

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1591

Post by fierceredpanda »

Gregg wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:48 am IANAL but Impeachment is not a criminal action, no jeopardy attaches to an impeached official and a Pardon wouldn't apply to it, as well after a conviction in an impeachment you could still accept a Pardon, either before or after a criminal action.
Right?
Historically, not quite. Although no criminal penalties attach, impeachment has been viewed as a sort of quasi-criminal proceeding, hence the specific clause in the Constitution assigning the Senate the power to "try all impeachments." It's sort of a criminal proceeding where the maximum penalties are removal from office and a lifetime bar from holding any office or trust under the United States in the future. And the power of clemency extends to literally every other kind of criminal proceeding under Federal law. In theory, a truly unfettered pardon power could absolve the convicted official of the conviction and commute the lifetime bar. Obviously, when you're talking about Executive Branch officials who work for the President, or the President himself, you can see all sort of potential pitfalls to not making the language exceedingly clear that POTUS absolutely cannot utilize his pardon, reprieve, and commutation powers to overturn the verdict of 2/3rds of the Senate.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
Fortinbras
Posts: 2950
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:08 am

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1592

Post by Fortinbras »

Stone's commutation may be constitutional but it has its curiosities. In Stone's case, Trump nullified Stone's prison sentence AND the very substantial fines that were part of the sentence. In previous commutations, such as Scooter Libby under George W. Bush, only the prison sentence or whatever remained of it was commuted but the monetary penalties remained (and there may have been other instances where only the fines were nullified).

Here, Trump relieved Stone of all his penalties - but left the felony convictions in place. Stone is still a convicted felon, unable to vote and a few other disabilities, altho he hasn't lost time or money. Why didn't Trump grant him a full pardon, instead of coming so close but stopping just short??
User avatar
realist
Posts: 35456
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:33 pm

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1593

Post by realist »

Fortinbras wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:26 am Stone's commutation may be constitutional but it has its curiosities. In Stone's case, Trump nullified Stone's prison sentence AND the very substantial fines that were part of the sentence. In previous commutations, such as Scooter Libby under George W. Bush, only the prison sentence or whatever remained of it was commuted but the monetary penalties remained (and there may have been other instances where only the fines were nullified).

Here, Trump relieved Stone of all his penalties - but left the felony convictions in place. Stone is still a convicted felon, unable to vote and a few other disabilities, altho he hasn't lost time or money. Why didn't Trump grant him a full pardon, instead of coming so close but stopping just short??
Perhaps because the genius that is Roger Stone stated he did not want a pardon (which intimated guilt) but rather wanted his sentence commuted. Very shorty thereafter, he was granted his wish.

It will be interested to see what the judge says about whether his parole, etc., was commuted or not.
ImageX 4 ImageX36
Image
User avatar
SLQ
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:33 am

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1594

Post by SLQ »

Fortinbras wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:26 am Stone's commutation may be constitutional but it has its curiosities. In Stone's case, Trump nullified Stone's prison sentence AND the very substantial fines that were part of the sentence. In previous commutations, such as Scooter Libby under George W. Bush, only the prison sentence or whatever remained of it was commuted but the monetary penalties remained (and there may have been other instances where only the fines were nullified).

Here, Trump relieved Stone of all his penalties - but left the felony convictions in place. Stone is still a convicted felon, unable to vote and a few other disabilities, altho he hasn't lost time or money. Why didn't Trump grant him a full pardon, instead of coming so close but stopping just short??
Because Stone is appealing his conviction. He can't appeal if he's pardoned, because a pardon implies guilt.
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
-- Yoda
User avatar
bob
Posts: 30325
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1595

Post by bob »

Too also: The impeached president can still pardon Stone ... after the election.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2
User avatar
Northland10
Posts: 10016
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:19 am
Location: Chicago area - North burbs

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1596

Post by Northland10 »

realist wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:39 am It will be interested to see what the judge says about whether his parole, etc., was commuted or not.
I thought parole was no longer a thing in the federal courts and corrections.
North-land: of the family 10.5

UCC 1-106 Plural is Singular, Singular is Plural.
User avatar
Frater I*I
Posts: 1136
Joined: Thu May 24, 2018 5:08 pm
Location: City of Dis, Sixth Circle of Hell
Occupation: Aviation Mechanic

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1597

Post by Frater I*I »

Northland10 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:14 pm
I thought parole was no longer a thing in the federal courts and corrections.
Yes and no. If you were convicted before 01NOV87 you can apply for it, after that you're doing 85% minimum with good time credits, then there is 1-5 years of supervised release.
Gazer Into the SovCit Abyss
User avatar
Gregg
Posts: 4380
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:09 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
Occupation: We build cars

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1598

Post by Gregg »

bob wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:01 pm Too also: The impeached president can still pardon Stone ... after the election.
Stone doesn't want a Pardon, he wants to continue being persecuted and writing books about it and being on TV about it and and and...

He's getting off in this stuff, as long as he knows he's never going to actually go to jail, he's fine.
Honorary Commander, 699th Airborne Assault Dachshund Regiment
Deadly Sausage Dogs from the Sky
User avatar
Foggy
Posts: 31646
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: District Court of Bun-Dogs
Occupation: Devilish Hyena
Avatar: Silly engineers have been using 3D printers to make Godzilla arms for chickens.

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1599

Post by Foggy »

I hope y'all are still wearing your seat belts!
User avatar
bob
Posts: 30325
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: USA v Roger J. Stone, Jr., USDC-DC, Obstruction, False Statements, Witness Tampering

#1600

Post by bob »

Law & Crime:
Emails Reveal the Immediate Internal Fallout Over DOJ’s Intervention in Roger Stone Case
:
Internal emails released Monday have provided an inside look into what transpired at the Department of Justice when every prosecutor assigned to the Roger Stone criminal case withdraw in protest. The emails were obtained through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request submitted by Jason Leopold of Buzzfeed News to the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys. The agency responded with 76-pages of partially redacted documents while withholding 152 pages.

The emails pertain mainly to the DOJ’s extraordinary decision to undercut its own assistant U.S. attorneys regarding the sentencing recommendation for Stone. The original prosecutors — Aaron Zelinsky, Jonathan Kravis, Adam Jed and Michael J. Marando — on Feb. 10 submitted a memo to the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., recommending that the president’s longtime confidant be sentenced to serve between seven and nine years in prison.

Soon after the recommendation was submitted, Zelinsky sent an email to Jonathan Lenzner, the first assistant U.S. attorney for Maryland. Though the content of the email is redacted in its entirety, the subject of the message was “Re: Looks like they are blinking.”

Hours later President Donald Trump tweeted his dissatisfaction with the DOJ’s recommendation for his former advisor. “This is a horrible and very unfair situation,” Trump tweeted at 1:48 a.m. the following day.
The FOIA docs. A quick glance suggests the documents disclosed are pretty routine, i.e., automated notifications or routine questions. So the "story" is the volume of unreleased information.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2
Post Reply

Return to “Courts, Law, and Legal Issues”