Gun Control Legislation

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Addie
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1151

Post by Addie » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:02 am

The Guardian: Six victories for the gun control movement since the Parkland massacre


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TheNewSaint
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1152

Post by TheNewSaint » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:38 pm

neeneko wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 am
When a debate seems to boil down to 'I am rational, you are the irrational one!
Which wasn't happening here at all, so I'm not sure why you're going on about this.

As for the rest of it: I have been around guns all my life; my immediate family includes licensed gun brokers; I go to a shooting range with them each time I visit, and my opinion on gun control has evolved significantly. I am no longer a 2nd Amendment absolutist; I believe there is a huge range of possible gun control actions that would prevent mass shootings, and not infringe upon ordinary citizens. So I'm quite capable of re-evaluating my position, thank you very much.

Let's get back to what I actually said: "I submit that this is a perfectly rational fear." Fears are, by their nature, irrational. People are afraid of water, spiders, heights, public speaking, and all kinds of things there is little reason to fear.

So I'll retract the word "rational" - which you and the horse you rode in on have such a problem with - and replace it with "normal." Or "understandable" if you prefer. Whatever you or I may think of that fear, it is a fear people have. I have seen stories of schoolchildren having breakdowns during mundane lockdowns, for fear of what might be going on. In light of recent events, i find this an understandable fear. That was all i intended to say.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1153

Post by neeneko » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:41 pm

TheNewSaint wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:38 pm
So I'll retract the word "rational" - which you and the horse you rode in on have such a problem with - and replace it with "normal." Or "understandable" if you prefer. Whatever you or I may think of that fear, it is a fear people have. I have seen stories of schoolchildren having breakdowns during mundane lockdowns, for fear of what might be going on. In light of recent events, i find this an understandable fear. That was all i intended to say.
'Understandable' I have no issue with, I agree that the reactions people are having are quiet understandable.

The reason 'rational' jumped out at me was the two points being made were first:
Yes, we tend to hate what we fear. Today's bogeyman is firearms and the people who own them.
Which is framing the fear as irrational and misplaced, along with what 'people' are feeling
People don't fear firearms. They fear excessively powerful firearms in the hands of unstable people.
Which reframed the fear as rational and placed correctly, along with what 'people' are feeling.

And keep in mind that my comment was in terms of 'there are more than one person', so the relative nature of the fears was intended to be in terms of different people having different fears and all believing that their own fears/anger/whatever are rational and justified.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1154

Post by TheNewSaint » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:44 pm

neeneko wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:41 pm
The reason 'rational' jumped out at me was the two points being made were first:
Yes, we tend to hate what we fear. Today's bogeyman is firearms and the people who own them.
Which is framing the fear as irrational and misplaced, along with what 'people' are feeling
People don't fear firearms. They fear excessively powerful firearms in the hands of unstable people.
I meant only that "they fear guns" was an overly broad characterization by the first poster. I intended to narrow the focus to mass shootings by deranged people with high-powered weapons, which is where I think it belongs. I could have worded it better.



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Suranis
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1155

Post by Suranis » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:39 am

So, Vermont House and senate has passed new gun control laws, and Governor Phil Scott says he supports them and is expected to sign them.

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/ ... k-gun-bill
The Vermont House gave final approval to a major piece of gun legislation Tuesday evening, voting for it 89-54 after an extensive debate.

The Senate will now take up the bill, S.55, which would mandate universal background checks, raise the purchasing age for guns to 21, and ban both bump stocks and high-capacity magazines. The magazine ban spurred the most discussion during Tuesday's debate, which lasted six hours and followed a 10-hour debate last Friday.

A last-minute lobbying effort to exempt Vermont gun manufacturers from the ban on magazines with more than 10 rounds was victorious.

Reps. Corey Parent (R-St. Albans) and Eileen Dickinson (R-St. Albans) argued that without such an exemption, the bill would jeopardize hundreds of jobs at Century International Arms, a global firearms dealer with a factory in Franklin County.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1156

Post by Volkonski » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:49 pm

Federal Judge Upholds Massachusetts’s Assault-Weapons Ban

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eral-judge
Massachusetts’ beefed-up ban on assault weapons doesn’t violate the Second Amendment of the Constitution, a U.S. judge ruled, handing a victory to gun-control advocates seeking to pass such a law nationwide following a spate of deadly mass shootings.

"The AR-15 and its analogs, along with large capacity magazines, are simply not weapons within the original meaning of the individual constitutional rights to ‘bear arms,’" U.S. District Judge William Young wrote in a decision Thursday in Boston, dismissing a lawsuit over the state law.

Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey was sued by a gun-rights group in response to her July 2016 enforcement notice that broadened the definition of "copies or duplicates" of AR-15 and AK-47 models that are prohibited under the state’s 1998 assault-weapon bans.

“These are weapons of war that belong on the battlefield, and we were pleased today to see yet another court agree with that stance,” Kris Brown, co-president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said in a statement.
I hope this decision survives the appeals process.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1157

Post by Volkonski » Sat May 19, 2018 12:01 pm

https://www.facebook.com/ChiefArtAcevedo?ref=br_rs

Message from Houston's Chief of Police-



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Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1158

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Sat May 19, 2018 12:23 pm

Good for him. Someone has decide enough and national Republicans won't ever do it.


"The people must know before they can act, and there is no educator to compare with the press." - Ida B. Wells-Barnett, journalist, newspaper editor, suffragist, feminist and founder with others of NAACP.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1159

Post by Volkonski » Sat May 19, 2018 12:46 pm


Shannon Watts

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This Santa Fe High School press conference by three A-rated @NRA lawmakers is something:

“We must do everything possible to prevent this from happening again,” says Ted Cruz, US Senator who voted against universal background checks after Sandy Hook School shooting 5 years ago.

2:19 PM - 18 May 2018
I do not much like Ted Cruz. :madguy:


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1160

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Sat May 19, 2018 12:53 pm

I do not like you, Mr. Cruz.
I do not like your NRA views.
I do not like your NRA bought votes.
I do not like your "bad guy with a gun" scapegoats.
I do not like you, Mr. Cruz.


"The people must know before they can act, and there is no educator to compare with the press." - Ida B. Wells-Barnett, journalist, newspaper editor, suffragist, feminist and founder with others of NAACP.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1161

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Sat May 19, 2018 1:08 pm

I do not like you, Mr. Cruz.
If I lived in Texas, I would choose
To vote for Beto O'Rourke who
Doesn't get cash from the NRA, like you.
I would not vote for you, Mr. Cruz.

I do not like you, Mr. Cruz.
Your party before country views,
Your votes to make people of color lose.
Your rejection of Dreamers and keeping families together values.
No, I do not like you, Mr. Cruz.


"The people must know before they can act, and there is no educator to compare with the press." - Ida B. Wells-Barnett, journalist, newspaper editor, suffragist, feminist and founder with others of NAACP.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1162

Post by Fortinbras » Sat May 19, 2018 3:05 pm

“We must do everything possible to prevent this from happening again,” says Ted Cruz.

And yet I can remember several proposals, which fall into the category of "everything possible", that Senator Cruz opposed very vehemently.

Now, very clearly, the Second Amendment does not allow possession of EVERY sort of armament; for example, tommy guns are not allowed, neither are switchblades (which establishes that low-tech and non-firearms weapons can also be restricted). Nor are certain refinements to allowed weapons, such as sawing off shotgun barrels or putting silencers on handguns. That being the case, it is clear that there is much that Congress CAN do, SHOULD do, and is FAILING to do.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1163

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Sat May 19, 2018 4:49 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:05 pm
“We must do everything possible to prevent this from happening again,” says Ted Cruz.

And yet I can remember several proposals, which fall into the category of "everything possible", that Senator Cruz opposed very vehemently.

Now, very clearly, the Second Amendment does not allow possession of EVERY sort of armament; for example, tommy guns are not allowed, neither are switchblades (which establishes that low-tech and non-firearms weapons can also be restricted). Nor are certain refinements to allowed weapons, such as sawing off shotgun barrels or putting silencers on handguns. That being the case, it is clear that there is much that Congress CAN do, SHOULD do, and is FAILING to do.
:thumbs:


"The people must know before they can act, and there is no educator to compare with the press." - Ida B. Wells-Barnett, journalist, newspaper editor, suffragist, feminist and founder with others of NAACP.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1164

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sat May 19, 2018 8:14 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:05 pm
:snippity: That being the case, it is clear that there is much that Congress CAN do, SHOULD do, and is FAILING to do.
And what can they do that would actually prevent the kind of violence we're seeing?


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1165

Post by Volkonski » Sun May 20, 2018 11:44 am

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:14 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:05 pm
:snippity: That being the case, it is clear that there is much that Congress CAN do, SHOULD do, and is FAILING to do.
And what can they do that would actually prevent the kind of violence we're seeing?
Get rid of the guns.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1166

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sun May 20, 2018 2:30 pm

Volkonski wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 11:44 am
Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 8:14 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 3:05 pm
:snippity: That being the case, it is clear that there is much that Congress CAN do, SHOULD do, and is FAILING to do.
And what can they do that would actually prevent the kind of violence we're seeing?
Get rid of the guns.
They can't without turning the U.S. into a police state for an utterly specious reason.

Next idea?


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1167

Post by Suranis » Sun May 20, 2018 2:32 pm

Yes, because the UK and Australia are totally police states.

Anyone with a non specious troll comment?


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1168

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sun May 20, 2018 2:41 pm

Suranis wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:32 pm
Yes, because the UK and Australia are totally police states.

Anyone with a non specious troll comment?
Wrong again, Grasshopper - neither the UK nor Australia got rid of all the guns and neither had an amendment in their constitution preventing same.


“Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.”
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1169

Post by Suranis » Sun May 20, 2018 2:45 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:41 pm
Wrong again, Grasshopper - neither the UK nor Australia got rid of all the guns and neither had an amendment in their constitution preventing same.
There isn't a country on earth that 100% bans all guns, and there is nothing in your constitution that prevents regulation on guns. See Heller.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1170

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sun May 20, 2018 2:52 pm

Suranis wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:45 pm
Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:41 pm
Wrong again, Grasshopper - neither the UK nor Australia got rid of all the guns and neither had an amendment in their constitution preventing same.
There isn't a country on earth that 100% bans all guns, and there is nothing in your constitution that prevents regulation on guns. See Heller.
Please refer to the poster's idea - "get rid of the guns." That's a terribly simplistic non-solution to the root problem of violence associated with young males.


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Walter Lippmann

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1171

Post by Suranis » Sun May 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:52 pm
Please refer to the poster's idea - "get rid of the guns." That's a terribly simplistic non-solution to the root problem of violence associated with young males.
Sorry, what were you saying? I was totally distracted by the massive lack of mass shootings in the UK and Australia, and pretty much everywhere else these days. And the trend for lesser amounts of gun violence in US States with stronger Gun Control laws.

Which makes your "non-solution" term to be a bit simplistically wrong. But hey, I'm glad you accept that the lives of your fellow Americans are a price worth paying for you able to stroke your black oily member.

PS, our fellow member didn't say "get rid of ALL the guns," so you calling on hi as evidence for you dragging "100%" out of left field is a bit specious.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1172

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sun May 20, 2018 3:11 pm

Suranis wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 2:58 pm
:snippity:
PS, our fellow member didn't say "get rid of ALL the guns," so you calling on hi as evidence for you dragging "100%" out of left field is a bit specious.
What is the difference between "the guns" and "all the guns" ?


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1173

Post by Suranis » Sun May 20, 2018 3:17 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 3:11 pm
What is the difference between "the guns" and "all the guns" ?
Fish. :bored:


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1174

Post by Volkonski » Sun May 20, 2018 3:31 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_d ... s_by_state

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content ... 015-041586

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 359395002/

In 2016 US state gun deaths per 100,000 residents varied from a low of 3.4 in Massachusetts to a high of 23.3 in Alaska. (The rate for the whole US was 11.8.)

Using data from 2013, 61.7% of Alaskan adults over the age of 18 owned guns. Only 22.6 % of the adults in Massachusetts owned guns.

Fewer guns, fewer gun deaths.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1175

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sun May 20, 2018 3:52 pm

You can dance around reality all you want, but unless you figure out a way to get rid of hundreds of millions of what have long-been legally owned firearms you will never keep them out of the hands of determined criminals or twisted predatory maniacs that have little regard for the lives of others.

Another part of the idea of getting rid of all guns that's a non-starter is that we have states that dictate firearm ownership laws and at least for the time being, we don't have restrictions on travel between states. If someone wants to meet up with his or her uncle in another state and buy a rifle or shotgun from him or take possession of one and head back home, the transaction will never be known.

Families will distribute firearms as well. Shortly after his passing, my paternal grandfather's collection was distributed among his sons and some of them wound up with me and will wind up with my children when I'm gone. None of them have ever been, nor will ever be, registered.

How do you go about getting rid of "the guns" when you don't even know where they are?


“Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.”
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