Gun Control Legislation

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Sugar Magnolia
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1126

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:46 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:34 pm
The post-Parkland proposals from the NRA/Republicans - namely to fortify schools with gunmen of their own - has been repeatedly proven to be a bad idea and ineffective in protecting the children. In just the past month, multiple instances of teachers bringing guns into schools and shooting them off haphazardly, and now a school's genuine armed "resource person" shot and killed by a gunman. And, obviously, the suggestion about schools does nothing to protect children or anyone else in the other places where mass shootings have occurred -- churches, concerts, dance clubs, restaurants, movie theaters, shopping malls, etc.

Time to go back and consider doing something about the sales of assault-type weaponry.
What are you talking about?



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1127

Post by Estiveo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:20 pm

Sugar Magnolia wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:46 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:34 pm
The post-Parkland proposals from the NRA/Republicans - namely to fortify schools with gunmen of their own - has been repeatedly proven to be a bad idea and ineffective in protecting the children. In just the past month, multiple instances of teachers bringing guns into schools and shooting them off haphazardly, and now a school's genuine armed "resource person" shot and killed by a gunman. And, obviously, the suggestion about schools does nothing to protect children or anyone else in the other places where mass shootings have occurred -- churches, concerts, dance clubs, restaurants, movie theaters, shopping malls, etc.

Time to go back and consider doing something about the sales of assault-type weaponry.
What are you talking about?
I think Fortinbras has today's school shooting in Maryland bass-ackwards.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1128

Post by Volkonski » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:55 am

Orlando man who police say wanted to commit mass shooting barred from having weapons under new law

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/bre ... story.html
UCF student Chris Velasquez told police he was just one life-altering event — like getting fired or going through a breakup — from gathering the “courage” to open fire on an Orlando school, according to court records.

His dad owned a revolver. He had experience in a shooting range. He resented being the target of bullies in school. And, police said, he made violent comments online — and craved the “adrenaline rush” of carrying out a mass shooting.

Earlier this month, Orlando police used Florida’s new gun legislation, passed in the wake of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting in South Florida, to temporarily bar him from owning any weapons or ammunition.

:snippity:

Parris (Velasquez' lawyer) said police are “dragging an innocent student with zero history of violence or mental health issues through the mud.”
The government is taking away people's guns. (Well, the police have taken away one person's gun.)

First test of Florida's new law.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1129

Post by Addie » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:39 am

BuzzFeed News
After A Two Decade Ban, Congress Finally Says The Federal Government Can Study Gun Violence

Democrats and Republicans in Congress have agreed on legislation that would open the doors to the federal government studying the effects gun violence, softening decades of legal language that encouraged the Centers for Disease Control to leave the issue alone.

A $1.3 trillion kitchen sink spending bill that must pass by Friday to avoid another government shutdown will not change gun control laws, but does contain two key measures to research gun violence and beef up background checks.

The momentum to significantly alter gun control laws in the wake of the Parkland, Florida, school shooting last month have faded in Congress in recent weeks, but the two provisions made it into the final, bipartisan bill released Wednesday night.

The spending bill contains a modest measure to improve reporting to the national background check registry. That was expected in recent days, but on top of it the committee report contains language that will allow the Centers for Disease Control the authority to research gun violence.

The CDC has essentially washed its hands of studying gun violence because of ‘90s legislation that prevented the agency from using any federal funds to advocate or promote gun control. While not an explicit ban, this legislative language has been ominous enough to mostly chill the agency from researching the issue. The result has been a dearth of research about the effects gun violence in America.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1130

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 pm

School shootings are extraordinarily rare. Why is fear of them driving policy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 3494e72a27
The constant drumbeat of negative news in general — the possibility of nuclear war, terrorism, a bad flu season, hate crimes, climate change — makes the world feel like a darker, more threatening place than it actually is, which makes us more fearful overall.
Never let an opportunity to stoke the fires of fear go unused, especially if it aligns with your political agenda.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1131

Post by Mikedunford » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:46 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 pm
School shootings are extraordinarily rare. Why is fear of them driving policy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 3494e72a27
The constant drumbeat of negative news in general — the possibility of nuclear war, terrorism, a bad flu season, hate crimes, climate change — makes the world feel like a darker, more threatening place than it actually is, which makes us more fearful overall.
Never let an opportunity to stoke the fires of fear go unused, especially if it aligns with your political agenda.
I don't think the primary driving force is fear. I think it's anger.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1132

Post by Danraft » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:07 am

I don't think the primary driving force is fear. I think it's anger

Hear! Hear!
I agree. On and with both sides of the observation.
Yes, we know our times are less violent than almost any in history.
Yet, gun violence is still disturbing, despite the Hollywood "cheapness of life" wherein person after person dies, "pop, pop, pop" for some vague furtherance of a poorly written storyline. I remember in the movie "Face Off" counting a death tally into over a hundred for no real purpose except the employment of stunt men..
But, school shootings are real.
They are particularly gruesome and disturbing in that they are deaths for being in the wrong place at the wrong time... The place one is required to be.
And, they are children.
And, they are fish in a barrel.
And, I'm tired and don't know what woke me up, some nightmare about snakes from watching "Planet Earth II", I think.
But, the anger is also about a piss poor response of Thoughts and Prayers and a seeming government indifference which seems to be caused by a "lobbying group" for guns
The NRA set themselves up for this when they started "Grading" politicians.
The NRA set themselves up for this with the diseased mind of CEO Wayne LaPiere.
The NRA set themselves up for this by being one of the largest sources of campaign money
The NRA set themselves up for this by claiming to "Never lose" when they threaten "their" politicians.
The NRA set themselves up for this being Merchants of Death representing not people (as they claim) but gun manufacturers.
The NRA set themselves up for this by not allowing conversation about anything gun related... gun safety, gun modifications, guns and depression, guns and mental illness, cop killing bullets, background checks, manufacturer responsibility, ability of our own bloody doctors to talk to us...etc
The NRA set themselves up for this with every membership oriented, paranoid nut, anti liberal, conspiracy laden news letter they propagated.
The NRA set themselves up for this with a series of Dana Loesch "Progressives are scum" video they made seeming to crave a "Walking Dead"-like slaughter of liberals.
The NRA set themselves damn well up for the Anger that is directed at them.

And, I see zero reason to protect the motherfommers as I feel they interfered in Democracy, civility, an informed electorate, doctor patient priveledge, children's right to child hood, etc.
For ONE thing....
They did all the above for ONE thing.
Profit.
I don't believe they consider the 2nd Amendment anything more than a "Ca-ching" profit clause in the Constitution.
Moreover, the Bundy type bozos of the world are fed by this nonsense.
Let them Reap what the deserve.
Thoughts and Prayers to their Loss.
(and I m fed up with people not wanting to call gun suicide a gun death... crap that pissez me off)
Good night...
I won't apologize for my rant, but be thankful there is a spot on the innertubes where the brilliance of the human mind hasn't been tarnished by NRA Hate.
Dan
edited for dyslexic thumbs.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1133

Post by Suranis » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:17 am

Nice to see tghat the new line from the NRA is "oh but these things are so RARE!!!" Well, you would be SHOCKED at how rare they are in every other country bar yours. :bored:

So lets look at this. According to this, there has been 22 school shootings on the level of Parkland since 1990. There has been 290 school shootings of other kinds, such as suicides, accidental discharges and other things.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 349380002/

22 mass school shootings is 2200% the amount in Britannia and Australia. I'm sure you will gather numbers worldwide in an attempt to muddy the waters, but even if you manage tro gather 22 other incidents world wide, then that means that 50% of the incidents are in your country. Which makes you a massive statistical anomaly.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1134

Post by Sam the Centipede » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:37 am

Thanks Mike, Dan! :clap: :clap:

That anger and the energy it produces will persist while gun nuts and their right-wing satraps spout vile, hateful nonsense which defames the kids, devalues their lives, mocks and mischaracterizes their message, trivializes the victims, laughs at the suffering of victims' friends and families.

Rick Santorum's assertion that the kids should shut up, be glad to be targets, help to make child hunting a more exciting sport, and concentrate on clearing up the bodies was not going to win over any of the Parkland kids!

It disappoints me that so many pro-control people feel the need to include a rider "I'm for the Second Amendment" when they advocate sanity. That amendment is not about hunting rifles or personal protection and it is irrelevant to the issue of protecting the country from external foes. It only asserts the right of Americans to shoot fellow Americans. That is not a right that a civilized country should want or need.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1135

Post by TheNewSaint » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:28 am

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:37 am
The 2nd Amendment only asserts the right of Americans to shoot fellow Americans. That is not a right that a civilized country should want or need.
I also find it a bit obsolete. Clearly, the framers' intention was that citizens should be able to protect themselves from a tyrannical government. However, in the late 1700s, there were no tanks, armored vehicles, ironclad ships, nuclear or chemical weapons, flying machines of any kind (except very early balloons), to say nothing of modern, computerized weaponry. The idea that a citizenry with mere guns could stand up to a modern national military is downright quaint. And a citizenry with mere guns standing up to a local government smacks of terrorism.

What's needed is tests like the 1st Amendment has. Time, place and manner restrictions on free speech are constitutional, provided they are narrowly tailored and serve a valid government function. I see plenty of room for constitutional limits on gun ownership that would not infringe on the framers' intent, even if that intent is largely symbolic nowadays.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1136

Post by neeneko » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:20 am

TheNewSaint wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:28 am
I also find it a bit obsolete. Clearly, the framers' intention was that citizens should be able to protect themselves from a tyrannical government.
Well, no. The idea was that States could field militias without having to incur the cost of maintaining a professional army, and so that slave owners could be prepared for slave rebellions when they crop up. Given that right after the revolution the government put down multiple 'protecting ourselves against tyranny' uprisings, they were NOT interested in citizens stopping them.
The idea that a citizenry with mere guns could stand up to a modern national military is downright quaint.
To be fair, the US military has shown to be pretty ineffective at rooting out fighters that are embedded in communities. Modern militaries are good at fighting modern militaries, but they tend to be pretty weak at fighting armed populations. Granted such a civil war would probably reduce the US to a failed state in pretty short order, but the government would be unlikely to have a swift decisive victory IF the uprising was popular enough.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1137

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:58 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:46 pm
Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 pm
School shootings are extraordinarily rare. Why is fear of them driving policy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 3494e72a27
The constant drumbeat of negative news in general — the possibility of nuclear war, terrorism, a bad flu season, hate crimes, climate change — makes the world feel like a darker, more threatening place than it actually is, which makes us more fearful overall.
Never let an opportunity to stoke the fires of fear go unused, especially if it aligns with your political agenda.
I don't think the primary driving force is fear. I think it's anger.
Yes, we tend to hate what we fear. Today's bogeyman is firearms and the people who own them. Not sure what the next one will be but the media will surely find one when this one wears out and the advertisers lose interest.


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RVInit
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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1138

Post by RVInit » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:14 am

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:58 am
Mikedunford wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:46 pm
Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 pm
School shootings are extraordinarily rare. Why is fear of them driving policy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 3494e72a27



Never let an opportunity to stoke the fires of fear go unused, especially if it aligns with your political agenda.
I don't think the primary driving force is fear. I think it's anger.
Yes, we tend to hate what we fear. Today's bogeyman is firearms and the people who own them. Not sure what the next one will be but the media will surely find one when this one wears out and the advertisers lose interest.
IMO you may be misunderstanding what is going on. "We" don't fear firearms. I have two of them myself. Always have, probably always will. But I am absolutely in favor of destroying the NRA. They are the ones who instigate fear for the purpose of selling firearms. There is no need for them to "protect" my 2nd amendment rights. They are protected by the very fact that they are Constitutional rights. But, even Scalia believed there are legitimate limits to those rights. We don't fear the NRA. They are the fearmongers, not us. We are angry that in spite of the fact that 98% of all voters favor legislation that cannot pass because Republican politicians are devoted to the NRA instead of being devoted to the very people they are supposed to represent. The NRA is a plague on our nation, and they will go down eventually.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1139

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:28 am

:like:
My hubbie and boys are gun owners. We gave each boy a BB gun for his 10th birthday. My husband still has the shotguns given to him by his father and grandfather. My brothers still duck hunt. Guns are treated with knowledge of their power, but are not the meaning to life.

Today's NRA is a propaganda tool for its own existence and for the gun manufacturers. It is so deceitful as to not quote the Second Amendment in its entirety on its building.

The NRA has not always been this fearmongering. It began with a goal of teaching safety in gun use. It is not that now.

I rightfully fear for my granddaughters once they are old enough to attend public schools. I personally know and have spoken with a survivor of the mass shooting in Arkansas when two boys 11 and under, picked off their classmates. (She was my associate.) She still struggles with survivor guilt.

I agree with whoever wrote that there should be reasonable restrictions on the Second Amendment just like there are on the First Amendment.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1140

Post by MsDaisy » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:42 am

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:28 am
:like:
:snippity:
I rightfully fear for my granddaughters once they are old enough to attend public schools.
:snippity:

I agree with whoever wrote that there should be reasonable restrictions on the Second Amendment just like there are on the First Amendment.
We also have guns including my father's custom made double barrel 12 gauge and they are all safely locked away from the ammo which is also locked. I keep my 2 y/o granddaughter and my 4 y/o grandson 3 days a week and have since birth and so far they don't even know we have them. My little man will be 5 soon and off to public school this fall. And we live deep in Trump country. :(


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1141

Post by Volkonski » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:55 am



ABC News

@ABC

New Jersey lawmakers set to vote on six gun measures post-#MarchforOurLives.

The bills would curb magazine capacity of firearms, require background checks for private gun sales, and ban armor-piercing ammunition.
https://
abcn.ws/2pIBdTU

10:40 AM - Mar 26, 2018


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1142

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:30 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:58 am
Mikedunford wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:46 pm
Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:41 pm
School shootings are extraordinarily rare. Why is fear of them driving policy?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... 3494e72a27



Never let an opportunity to stoke the fires of fear go unused, especially if it aligns with your political agenda.
I don't think the primary driving force is fear. I think it's anger.
Yes, we tend to hate what we fear. Today's bogeyman is firearms and the people who own them. Not sure what the next one will be but the media will surely find one when this one wears out and the advertisers lose interest.
No, Roy, it's not hate either. It's anger. And it's not directed at guns or gun owners - in fact, many of those who are angry are gun owners.

The anger is directed mostly at the NRA - an organization that thinks that the death of other people's children is not too high a price to pay to prevent even the level of gun control that existed in Tombstone, Arizona in the days of Marshall Virgil Earp.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1143

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:40 pm

It is also resolve against the NRA, its polemics, and the politicians it has bought.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1144

Post by DejaMoo » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:43 pm

Three percent of Americans own 50% of the guns. A very few of these are collectors. The majority are fearful and/or paranoid kooks who use guns as their security blankets and as effective means to intimidate others.

The NRA is the propaganda/lobbying tool of the gun manufacturers. They and the gun manufacturers need those 3% to keep buying guns, because without them, gun sales plummet and gun manufacturers go out of business*. The solution: keep promoting fear and mistrust, and use it to drive gun sales. After all, guns seldom break or wear out, so the average gun owner doesn't need to keep buying them**. It's the nuts that the NRA/gun manufacturers are playing to with their fearmongering and anti-government rhetoric.

The reality is, gun ownership and hunting is on the decline in the US, has been for decades. Younger generations are less interested in shooting and hunting - after all, if they want to, they've got computer games for that. Those who are interested in outdoors sports are now more into hiking and camping than hunting.

Remington's filed for bankruptcy, because the reality is, even the gun nuts can afford only so many guns. There's not enough of them to keep the entire industry afloat.

Point is, this isn't about 'freedom' or the Second Amendment. They're not heroes, they're corporate tools. It's about sales, which means money. As usual, a business facing higher costs or fewer sales as a result of regulation will resist any attempt to impose regulations.


* In this respect the gun business is like the liquor business, which similarly relies on the alcoholics who buy the majority of booze to keep that industry afloat.

** And in this respect, the gun business is like the diamond business, which can only keep demand for diamond jewelry and their prices high by touting them as rare, desirable, and special - so special that they shouldn't be bought second-hand, but new. Because again, the amount of second-hand diamond jewelry out there is so substantial as to crater the diamond cartel if everybody wised up and realized there's no difference between buying second-hand and new, except for the substantial price difference.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1145

Post by TheNewSaint » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:37 am

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:58 am
Yes, we tend to hate what we fear. Today's bogeyman is firearms and the people who own them.
People don't fear firearms. They fear excessively powerful firearms in the hands of unstable people.

I submit that this is a perfectly rational fear.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1146

Post by Suranis » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:42 am

Its almost like people suspect that those who insist they need a thing that can punch baseball sized holes in several people in seconds have something wrong with them. I know, the thought shocks me too.


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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1147

Post by neeneko » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:11 am

TheNewSaint wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:37 am
People don't fear firearms. They fear excessively powerful firearms in the hands of unstable people.

I submit that this is a perfectly rational fear.
The problem with 'people' is there is more than one of them, and they have different thoughts, and 'rational' is generally framed by whatever one's peer group says it is.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1148

Post by TheNewSaint » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:25 am

neeneko wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:11 am

The problem with 'people' is there is more than one of them, and they have different thoughts, and 'rational' is generally framed by whatever one's peer group says it is.
What's your point? However flawed "people" may be, that's what society is made of. It's what this discussion is made of. If you're going to argue that all opinions are inherently flawed, whats the point of even discussing them?



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1149

Post by neeneko » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:43 am

TheNewSaint wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:25 am
What's your point? However flawed "people" may be, that's what society is made of. It's what this discussion is made of. If you're going to argue that all opinions are inherently flawed, whats the point of even discussing them?
For the most part, how flawed an argument is, is, well, irrelevant. When a debate seems to boil down to 'I am rational, you are the irrational one! No, I am the rational one, you are irrational!', it becomes more about demonstrating which peer group you are part of than actually changing minds.

Though if one is going to try to have a serious discussion, keeping in mind that norms/priorities/emotions of peer groups vary is really damn important, otherwise 'rational' and 'logical' become little more than code words for dismissing people's points as too emotional. If one believes they are being rational, they probably are not.



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Re: Gun Control Legislation

#1150

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:47 am

TheNewSaint wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:25 am
neeneko wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:11 am

The problem with 'people' is there is more than one of them, and they have different thoughts, and 'rational' is generally framed by whatever one's peer group says it is.
What's your point? However flawed "people" may be, that's what society is made of. It's what this discussion is made of. If you're going to argue that all opinions are inherently flawed, whats the point of even discussing them?
Moral relativism. "What is a criminal anyway? Isn't society to blame for having produced him?" And so on.

What a cop-out. If there had been a mechanism to seize guns from unstable people, hundreds of kids (and adults) who are now dead would still be with us.

OK, here's a moral-relativism-vs.-reality check: Should the Court confiscate this guy's AR-15? Or just slap his wrist and send him home with it?

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