Democrats Behaving Badly

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pipistrelle
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#326

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:27 pm

I'm not heartbroken over Franken. People do stupid things. No one is a pure snowflake. If he is ashamed, good. He should be. If he did something similar once or twice, but stopped and realized he was a jerk, good. If he's apologetic, good. If he has learned and won't do it again, great. I'm not going to judge him, or anyone, on a stupid incident or two. All of us, male or female, if we were honest with ourselves, could pull up something embarrassing or shameful in our memory banks.

In Moore's case, he has a loooooooong history of unabashedly horrid behavior that he seems pretty happy to not bother to defend because in his mind it's acceptable. Not comparable.



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Suranis
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#327

Post by Suranis » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:08 pm

neeneko wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:17 pm
jmj wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:18 pm
Foggy wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:16 pm
Oh crap. This is why it's best to have only dead heroes. The live ones are gonna let you down, bigly.
I'm thinking about a new personal policy of only voting for women in elections from now on...
While it does not get the same type of attention, sexual harassment by women (mostly against other women) is its own problem, and one will probably find far fewer heroes there than one would think.
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:06 pm
All I can say is - women are in the majority. I hope their votes and wisdom will one day save humanity since my sex is doing such a crappy job of it.
Unfortunately, women tend to be as crappy to women as men are.
PEOPLE tend to be as crappy to People as other people are. While I know I'm going to get shouted at for pointing it out, the whole thing about women always being the victims here is a bit of a myth. I spent a week considering posting this here, but I knew I would get shouted at as a woman hater if I did, so I censored myself. The fact is that Women can and do rape men, and the probable reason there is less of is is that women want sex less than men do, and women up till now have generally been in lesser positions of power than men. That is going to explode now that women are getting to the top rungs of the ladder. And if you think its hard for a woman to come forward, just try being a MAN coming forward to admit being raped by a woman. Women are more than capable of selecting a victim they can overpower.

Anyway here is the article. Preceed to flame away

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ ... d-by-women
he Hidden Epidemic of Men Who Are Raped by Women
According to dominant stereotypes, men can't be sexually assaulted by women. But according to a new, wide-ranging study, around two-thirds of men who report sexual victimization say their assailant was female.

Steven Blum
Nov 29 2016, 4:45pm

Photo by Rachel Bellinsky via Stocksy

There are many great things about the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's survey on sexual violence, according to UCLA law professor Lara Stemple. "The interviewer is trained to ask lots of questions and to maximize respondent comfort using check-ins," she explains. "Also, it's a health survey, which is a good context for people to think about their bodies and their own well-being."

But when it comes to reporting the outcomes of the survey, the CDC discounts men who have been forced to penetrate someone else—either by coercion, physical force, or lack of consent—by listing statistics for the crime under the category "other victimization," along with seemingly lesser offenses like "non-contact unwanted sexual experiences."

"They put it in the same broad category as being flashed or receiving lewd comments from a stranger," Stemple said. "There's no context, and it really minimizes the abuse."

Read more: Why Sweden Just Opened the First Male Rape Clinic in the World

The de-fanged language the CDC has adopted to label male victims of sexual assault underscores a worrying tendency among researchers as well as rape counselors and law enforcement officials, Stemple says. The implication: "For men, all sex is good sex."

"The way we talk about men and sex needs to change," Stemple says. "When we have these stereotypes for men, it makes it hard for them to come forward when they're victimized."

Stemple has long focused her research on how sexual violence against men goes under-reported. In 2014, she released a paper on male victims of sexual violence which analyzed several national surveys and found that, when taking into account cases where men were "made to penetrate" someone else, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact between men and women were basically equal: 1.267 million men said they had been victims of sexual violence, compared with 1.270 million women.
As for Franken, I never say his comedy, I just read a couple of his books, and I admire the guy. I think his apology is sincere.


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AndyinPA
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#328

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:43 pm

Am I missing something? She says she was asleep on the plane when he groped her. The photo I see wasn't taken on a plane.



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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#329

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:53 pm

Yes. It's a military cargo plane.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#330

Post by Estiveo » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:01 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:53 pm
Yes. It's a military cargo plane.
Yes, noted for their comfortable seating, like this:
Capture.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#331

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:18 pm

They're surprisingly comfortable, actually. I'd take them over goat class on most US carriers.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#332

Post by maydijo » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:29 pm

Off Topic
RE: women and sexual assault - Look at the difference in attitudes towards female teachers who sleep with teenage male students, vs. male teachers who sleep with teenage female students. It's often the case that, while the teenage girl is cast as a victim, the teenage boy is cast as a hero ("Wow, lucky guy!" and comments like that), and that female teachers often get lighter sentences than male teachers for exactly the same crime. Personally I believe this also has to do with paternalistic society - sex is framed differently for men than for women; we just assume that men are always willing partners, and women aren't. But teenage boys (under the age of legal consent, which in most areas is 18 for sex with an adult) are still minors, and the crime is still the same, and should be treated equally.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#333

Post by AndyinPA » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:47 pm

Estiveo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:01 pm
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:53 pm
Yes. It's a military cargo plane.
Yes, noted for their comfortable seating, like this:
Capture.JPG
Thanks for the photo. '



Clairez
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#334

Post by Clairez » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:04 am

I disagree about women wanting sex less than men do. I think that could well be another "Myth".

But I do believe that as women achieve more power they will also be more willing to just take what they want. It really is a power thing more than a sex thing. Imho



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#335

Post by maydijo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:10 am

Clairez wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:04 am
I disagree about women wanting sex less than men do. I think that could well be another "Myth".

But I do believe that as women achieve more power they will also be more willing to just take what they want. It really is a power thing more than a sex thing. Imho
Sorry - to be clear, I disagree too, and think it's a myth. This idea that all men having a raging libido and want sex anywhere, anytime, with anyone is damaging, as is this idea that women hate sex and don't want it ever, no matter where, with nobody at all. I think all sexual assault (no matter the perpetrator and no matter the victim) is always essentially about power, more than sex.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#336

Post by busterbunker » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:35 am

" It really is a power thing more than a sex thing..."

There's another thing that we call respect. Power, sex, money... you can have as much or little as you want. Respect is different. It is shared. It only exists in a mutual state.

Trump started this. Then he got elected. After Weinstein, I knew a long line of dominoes would follow. I always thought Spacey was straight and Franken was gay, not that it matters. Otherwise little else has surprised me.

We're not done yet, and that's fine with me, long time coming. It's all about changing the narrative.

In that regard, Franken might do the right thing by inviting a full ethics inquiry. He may be pilloried, fail and splutter, but sometimes one must sacrifice short-term gains for long-term profits.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#337

Post by p0rtia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:16 am

Just to reiterate re Franken: Franken, the photographer, everyone in the room (in varying ways) who laughed or egged on or said nothing, everyone who afterwards saw the photo and laughed or said nothing.

Abuse does not happen in a vaccuum. You can condemn the act with impunity. To condemn the chief actor's character is more complex. Both require societal context (cf. Moore). Condemn character at your peril.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#338

Post by jmj » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:14 am

maydijo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:29 pm
Off Topic
RE: women and sexual assault - Look at the difference in attitudes towards female teachers who sleep with teenage male students, vs. male teachers who sleep with teenage female students. It's often the case that, while the teenage girl is cast as a victim, the teenage boy is cast as a hero ("Wow, lucky guy!" and comments like that), and that female teachers often get lighter sentences than male teachers for exactly the same crime. Personally I believe this also has to do with paternalistic society - sex is framed differently for men than for women; we just assume that men are always willing partners, and women aren't. But teenage boys (under the age of legal consent, which in most areas is 18 for sex with an adult) are still minors, and the crime is still the same, and should be treated equally.
Off Topic
not to get too far afield here, but... I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. It's true that both men and women can be sexually assaulted and raped, and they're both terrible crimes. But one gender disproportionately must bear the consequences of sex. As a man, I could theoretically be sexually assaulted or even raped, but I'll never know the horror of getting pregnant from an act of rape. I would think that even the fear of the possibility of this happening would make the experience more viscerally terrifying that any man would probably be able to understand. Not that sexual assault against men isn't a serious and awful thing, but for me, they're still in different categories.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#339

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:14 am

p0rtia wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:16 am
Just to reiterate re Franken: Franken, the photographer, everyone in the room (in varying ways) who laughed or egged on or said nothing, everyone who afterwards saw the photo and laughed or said nothing.

Abuse does not happen in a vaccuum. You can condemn the act with impunity. To condemn the chief actor's character is more complex. Both require societal context (cf. Moore). Condemn character at your peril.
:like:

I have always spoken up and objected. I refused to be complicit. I refused to normalize or wink at demeaning behavior.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#340

Post by AndyinPA » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:25 am

I read this as I was getting ready for bed last night. 45 has nothing to say about Moore, but he chimes in on Franken? That's a really stupid move on his part.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... 6?lo=ap_c1
Trump weighed in on the latest congressional scandal Thursday night, tweeting about a photo that appeared to show Franken groping Los Angeles-based radio host Leeann Tweeden.

“The Al Frankenstien picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. Where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 while she sleeps? …..” Trump tweeted.

Trump continued: "And to think that just last week he was lecturing anyone who would listen about sexual harassment and respect for women. Lesley Stahl tape?"



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p0rtia
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#341

Post by p0rtia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:38 am

AndyinPA wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:25 am
I read this as I was getting ready for bed last night. 45 has nothing to say about Moore, but he chimes in on Franken? That's a really stupid move on his part.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... 6?lo=ap_c1
Trump weighed in on the latest congressional scandal Thursday night, tweeting about a photo that appeared to show Franken groping Los Angeles-based radio host Leeann Tweeden.

“The Al Frankenstien picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. Where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 while she sleeps? …..” Trump tweeted.

Trump continued: "And to think that just last week he was lecturing anyone who would listen about sexual harassment and respect for women. Lesley Stahl tape?"
He's really stupid. It might catch up with him before he dies. This is my hope.
:torches:


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#342

Post by GreatGrey » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:41 am

AndyinPA wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:25 am
I read this as I was getting ready for bed last night. 45 has nothing to say about Moore, but he chimes in on Franken? That's a really stupid move on his part.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/ ... 6?lo=ap_c1
Trump weighed in on the latest congressional scandal Thursday night, tweeting about a photo that appeared to show Franken groping Los Angeles-based radio host Leeann Tweeden.

“The Al Frankenstien picture is really bad, speaks a thousand words. Where do his hands go in pictures 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 while she sleeps? …..” Trump tweeted.

Trump continued: "And to think that just last week he was lecturing anyone who would listen about sexual harassment and respect for women. Lesley Stahl tape?"
Misspelled Frankenstein


I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.

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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#343

Post by AndyinPA » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:52 am

:rotflmao:



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#344

Post by RVInit » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 am

GreatGrey wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:41 am

Misspelled Frankenstein
I can just see him sitting on the commode ( :eek2: ), sounding it out...Frank....en..st..I...en. Actually, I'm proud of him, trying out such a long word all by hisself.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#345

Post by GreatGrey » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:03 am

RVInit wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 am
GreatGrey wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:41 am

Misspelled Frankenstein
I can just see him sitting on the commode ( :eek2: ), sounding it out...Frank....en..st..I...en. Actually, I'm proud of him, trying out such a long word all by hisself.
And then overriding the spell check cuz he knows better.


I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.

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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#346

Post by ZekeB » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:27 am

Trump's tweet was akin to the much bigger, much blacker kettle calling a pot black.


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Žluté vlasy se k oranžové tváři nehodí.

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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#347

Post by MN-Skeptic » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:43 am

I find Trump's tweet horrifying. He took what Franken confessed to and made it worse by "Trumpifying" it, i.e., ramping up the sexual assault to include groping all areas of the woman's body. I think Trump was enjoying a fantasy when he posted that tweet.



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Suranis
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#348

Post by Suranis » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:57 am

jmj wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:14 am
Off Topic
not to get too far afield here, but... I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. It's true that both men and women can be sexually assaulted and raped, and they're both terrible crimes. But one gender disproportionately must bear the consequences of sex. As a man, I could theoretically be sexually assaulted or even raped, but I'll never know the horror of getting pregnant from an act of rape. I would think that even the fear of the possibility of this happening would make the experience more viscerally terrifying that any man would probably be able to understand. Not that sexual assault against men isn't a serious and awful thing, but for me, they're still in different categories.
Off Topic
What if the rapist gets pregnant and stiffs you for child support for the rest of your life, while fighting any visitation rights? Or even better has a termination and then gloats over you that she she killed your child? Or even just watching some other guy raise your child and you cant say jack because no-one will believe you, and if you do say anything YOU will be branded the rapist? Does that sound sufficiently horrifying, or are there more reasons why women must always be higher on the victimhood scale than men simply becasue "all sex for men must be good sex"?


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#349

Post by maydijo » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:43 pm

jmj wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:14 am
maydijo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:29 pm
Off Topic
RE: women and sexual assault - Look at the difference in attitudes towards female teachers who sleep with teenage male students, vs. male teachers who sleep with teenage female students. It's often the case that, while the teenage girl is cast as a victim, the teenage boy is cast as a hero ("Wow, lucky guy!" and comments like that), and that female teachers often get lighter sentences than male teachers for exactly the same crime. Personally I believe this also has to do with paternalistic society - sex is framed differently for men than for women; we just assume that men are always willing partners, and women aren't. But teenage boys (under the age of legal consent, which in most areas is 18 for sex with an adult) are still minors, and the crime is still the same, and should be treated equally.
Off Topic
not to get too far afield here, but... I'm not sure that I totally agree with that. It's true that both men and women can be sexually assaulted and raped, and they're both terrible crimes. But one gender disproportionately must bear the consequences of sex. As a man, I could theoretically be sexually assaulted or even raped, but I'll never know the horror of getting pregnant from an act of rape. I would think that even the fear of the possibility of this happening would make the experience more viscerally terrifying that any man would probably be able to understand. Not that sexual assault against men isn't a serious and awful thing, but for me, they're still in different categories.
Off Topic
I see your point, and agree with you; but by the same token, if a woman becomes pregnant after sexually assaulting a man, forcing him to become a father is problematic . . . perhaps not equally problematic, but certainly a second violation. Pregnancy should always be a mutual decision, or else a happy and consensual mistake.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#350

Post by Hercule Parrot » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:07 pm

Image

I might be mistaken, but it appears to me that Sen Franken is not touching that lady's breasts. He is clowning around on a long flight home with a crew of USO performers after an exhausting tour 11yrs ago. I imagine they were tired, exhilarated, bored, maybe had a couple of beers. And yes, it's juvenile and poor taste, but it isn't sexual molestation in any real sense. It's like drawing a moustache on your pal's face with a sharpie while they're asleep. The snap was taken by the tour photographer, and distributed to everyone on the souvenir CD. Clearly nobody was interpreting Franken's behaviour as patriarchal abuse back then.

I can't speak of the kiss incident, if true that would be quite a different kettle of fish and I wouldn't want to make any excuses.

To be honest I'm beginning to worry that this is turning into a witch-hunt. On Friday 03 Nov, Carl Sargent (Welsh cabinet secretary for communities and children) was called into the office of the first minister, Carwyn Jones, and told that several allegations of "unwanted attention, inappropriate touching or groping" had been made against him. They would not tell him who had made these allegations, what exactly he was accused of, or where and when it supposedly happened.

Despite being lifelong comrades in the Welsh Labour movement, Jones and the leadership didn't hesitate to throw Sargent to the wolves. They instantly dismissed Sargent from his post, and Jones ran for the TV studios to boast of his zero tolerance for sexual misconduct. As soon as he heard about these incidents, he said, he took swift action. Obviously by referring to 'incidents' he was making a presumption of guilt, since no incident had yet been proven, but the important thing was to demonstrate repugnance towards Sargent and emphasise their distance from him.

Meanwhile Carl Sargent sat at home, in shock and despair. Perhaps guilt too, I have no idea if he groped someone's arse at a Party Conference. Certainly shame, because every TV channel was broadcasting him as the Harvey Weinstein of the Valleys. Sargent had been told that the allegations were not going to be passed to the Police, but instead investigated and adjudicated by Labour Party officials. He would not be allowed to defend himself in open court, to challenge the accusations against him. He would not have the normal evidential safeguards and processes, the presumption of innocence and the threshold of Beyond Reasonable Doubt. His guilt as a sex offender would instead be decided by a disciplinary committee, appointed by the leadership which had already decided to scapegoat him.

And so on Tue 06 Nov, Carl Sargent took his own life. He knew his career and reputation was destroyed now, whatever the outcome. A vocal and admired champion of women's rights, he would forever be tarred as an abuser of women. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ay-friends

Now obviously there are some specific factors here, in particular the application of a Star Chamber tribunal to try and sentence the offender defendant, and the frantic anxiety of politicians to maintain their own prospects at the cost of anyone else. If you've watched "The Thick Of It" then you'll recognise the Mr Tickle storyline here. But these factors are not unique. The same sort of thing can happen in workplaces and professions, schools & academia. The mood becomes feverish, and the only safe place is to be at the front of the mob.

I have written more than I intended, but should I type no more, returning were as tedious as go o'er.



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