Democrats Behaving Badly

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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#301

Post by Foggy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:32 pm

No. When Tollie said "guys" he meant all the newly identified sexual harassers. Too many to list. Tollie is one of the good guys. :thumbs:


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#302

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:41 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:17 pm
TexasFilly wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:07 pm
TollandRCR wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:59 am
Guys, you are doing our cause no good.
Is "guys" Franken? I'm confused.
I think it's referring to the Fogbow posters. Poor TollandRCR complains in another post that his special insight about the path to the promised land of electoral success is under-appreciated here, bless his heart.

But I hope it's not that. Not only should people like Franken not abuse their power (just because it's bad in any context), but their misbehavior is worsened in that it also betrays those that they represent.
I disagree with you and think that's a cheap shot on Tollie who has demonstrated in his posts here as well as his distinguished career and life experiences that his views are entitled to great respect. I think an apology would be appropriate from you, Sam.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#303

Post by Estiveo » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:55 pm

Compare Senator Franken's statement below with Louis CK's and then tell me which man has integrity. (hint: Not Louis CK)
FrankenStatement.jpg
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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#304

Post by p0rtia » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:00 pm

Good reminder of how deep the sense of male entitlement runs in our society, and of how easy it is to cross the line because of that and because it's often so hard to complain. Another variation on "You just don't get my sense of humor". God, has "being funny" covered up a lot of inappropriate behavior over the years. Don't be too hard on Al--not based on this, anyway.

FYI, I don't think the Franken story really belongs in Dems behving badly. This is not something that divides much by polyticks. Thom Hartman just posited that we might be seeing the end of 3,000 years of paternalism. That would be so cool, yeah?


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#305

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:06 pm

Unfortunately, we will not see the end of paternalism from this, in much the same way we did not see the end of racism when President Obama was elected. The dinosaurs will gin up a lot more hatred towards women and those who stand with them before this is over.

All I can say is - women are in the majority. I hope their votes and wisdom will one day save humanity since my sex is doing such a crappy job of it.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#306

Post by neeneko » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:17 pm

jmj wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:18 pm
Foggy wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:16 pm
Oh crap. This is why it's best to have only dead heroes. The live ones are gonna let you down, bigly.
I'm thinking about a new personal policy of only voting for women in elections from now on...
While it does not get the same type of attention, sexual harassment by women (mostly against other women) is its own problem, and one will probably find far fewer heroes there than one would think.
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:06 pm
All I can say is - women are in the majority. I hope their votes and wisdom will one day save humanity since my sex is doing such a crappy job of it.
Unfortunately, women tend to be as crappy to women as men are.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#307

Post by Maybenaut » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:38 pm

Leeann Tweeden wrote:Like many USO shows before and since, the skits were full of sexual innuendo geared toward a young, male audience.
Having been voluntold to attend more than one of these*, I'm not surprised. Not that it excuses Franken's conduct any, but I think it's time the USO put a stop to this sort of entertainment. It is inappropriate and contributes to the environment that led to the conduct. And it's actually belittling to our servicemembers. Do we think so little of them that we believe that they can't enjoy good music and good comedy unless it contains sexual innuendo?

* The last time I attended a USO show was in 1992. It was stateside, and there weren't any big-name performers**. The comedy was pretty trashy. Toward the end a female singer said, "Hey! I notice we have some women in the audience! Here's a song for all the military women out there!" She sang "Stand By Your Man." :roll:

** I attended one USO show where Barry Williams, AKA "Greg Brady" was the headliner. :swoon: :roll:



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#308

Post by p0rtia » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:42 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:06 pm
Unfortunately, we will not see the end of paternalism from this, in much the same way we did not see the end of racism when President Obama was elected. The dinosaurs will gin up a lot more hatred towards women and those who stand with them before this is over.
Of course I agree with the unlikeli hood of paternalism ending in my lifetime (let alone yours :cantlook: ), but I think this quite wonderful groundswell of speaking-up is wonderful (except of course that it's made of pain and violence). Being silent because you think you're the one who's wrong, or because you're afraid of what will happen if you do, is horrible. And it touches absolutely everyone as a result of bullying, racism, oh hell, any old abuse you care to name. It's the numbers who are speaking out that's impressive; different from having one guy reach a previously unattainable position of power.

Been thinking so much of Anita Hill (and Joe Biden), Bill Clinton, and all the people who, when I was growing up, explained that "no" really means "yes" and expected girls to put up some resistance as part of the game.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#309

Post by TexasFilly » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:43 pm

For the record, I didn't mean to start anything, I was just seeking clarification from Tollie. I have a special place in my heart for him.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#310

Post by MN-Skeptic » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:48 pm

While I never cared for Franken's humor, I gladly voted for him for Senator. I liked his viewpoints. Once he was elected, I was pleasantly surprised at how he kept his head down and just dug in to become an effective representative for Minnesota. I like his apology for his actions.

I find it ironic that Rush Limbaugh is discussing the Franken incident today. Rush - daily (or at least it seems to be whenever I unfortunately catch a snippet of his program) - refers to women who disagree with his politics as feminazis. Rush has no respect for women. What he does on a daily basis shows no more regard for women than that of a sexual predator.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#311

Post by MRich » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:58 pm

Regarding Sen. Franken's statement: I think this is as good an apology as I've seen. He's owning what he did, saying it was wrong, not trying to explain it away.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#312

Post by Maybenaut » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:28 pm

MRich wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:58 pm
Regarding Sen. Franken's statement: I think this is as good an apology as I've seen. He's owning what he did, saying it was wrong, not trying to explain it away.
And inviting an ethics investigation.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#313

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 pm

Estiveo,

I don't think it's an either/or thing. Just because Franken's response was better (and it was, most importantly in the lack of self aggrandizement and the call for an ethics investigation), does not mean Louis CK lacks integrity. There are several reasons why we should have expected that which don't reflect poorly on Louis CK. First, Louis went First -- Franken had the opportunity to see his statement and the reaction to it, not to mention the fact that he has a staff to help him write things like this. It would have been surprising if Franken hadn't learned from "prior art" and come up with something better.

Second, Franken only had (so far as we know) a single incident to apologize for (which didn't involve his penis being exposed or touched by anyone), while Louis CK had a clear pattern. Which arguably makes Louis' behavior worse, but also makes Franken's response easier. Finally, Al Franken is not a comedian any more. He got himself elected to a position of public trust and, as such, should be held to a higher standard. Too, also, his behavior is much more politically significant and Franken's response is, in my opinion, a clear and powerful political attack on Roy Moore (and and implicit attack on President PussyGrabber). In other words, Franken has much less to lose (he can't really be forced to resign for a forced kiss and a groping picture with Roy Moore still in the election and President Trump in office and stands to gain a lot for his party by inviting both comparisons and an investigation.

So, yes, if we are grading on a straight scale, Franken beats CK -- although he had far better resources to help him -- but, if we're grading on a curve, the question is was Al's response as big of an improvement over Trump and Moore as Louis' was over Weinstein and Spacey. Based on the entire context, I'd call that a push (both are easily an A+). I give both men credit for trying to do the right thing and both have begun to rebuild their integrity in my eyes. As always, it's what comes next that really counts. So long as they are not given the benefit of the doubt anymore and are simply judged on their (future) actions, I'm fine with whatever the outcome.

Maybenaut,

Inviting an ethics investigation is political hardball* -- I agree that it was a very good think to do, but I would also argue that it is also a powerful political weapon for Franken, so it isn't really a totally selfless act.

* Obviously Roy Moore can't do the same and reinforcing the integrity of the system and regular order is the most important job any elected official can do in the age of Trump.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#314

Post by Maybenaut » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:52 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 pm
... not to mention the fact that [Franken] has a staff to help him write things like this.

* * *

Franken beats CK -- although he had far better resources to help him
Slarti -- just curious to know why you think Franken (a) didn't write his apology by himself and (b) why Louis CK wouldn't have similar help. I know you don't come right out and say it, but the implication is there.

I'm sorry, but both of these implications are weird. I mean, aside from the fact that a staff exists, is there any fact you can point to that would support a claim that Franken didn't write his apology himself? And if he did, why would you think CK, who had a publicist at the time he issued his statement (but who later terminated representation), didn't have help with his?

ETA:
Slartibartfast wrote:Finally, Al Franken is not a comedian any more. He got himself elected to a position of public trust and, as such, should be held to a higher standard.
Nope.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#315

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:06 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:52 pm
Slartibartfast wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 pm
... not to mention the fact that [Franken] has a staff to help him write things like this.

* * *

Franken beats CK -- although he had far better resources to help him
Slarti -- just curious to know why you think Franken (a) didn't write his apology by himself and (b) why Louis CK wouldn't have similar help. I know you don't come right out and say it, but the implication is there.

I'm sorry, but both of these implications are weird. I mean, aside from the fact that a staff exists, is there any fact you can point to that would support a claim that Franken didn't write his apology himself? And if he did, why would you think CK, who had a publicist at the time he issued his statement (but who later terminated representation), didn't have help with his?
I have no information that you don't have, I was just making (possibly naive) suppositions based on the kind of staff/support a comedian has and the kind of staff/support a US Senator has. If there was any other implication, it was unintentional. If I were in either situation, I would get as much help as I could and I hope and expect that both men took advantage of all of the resources they could, I just think that Franken is likely to have more. I would also point out that Franken, both at SNL and the Senate, was part of writing teams while Louis CK was a solo act. It's not something I think is inappropriate or even significant in either case, just some idyl speculation that I thought interesting.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#316

Post by Maybenaut » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:18 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:06 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:52 pm
Slartibartfast wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 pm
... not to mention the fact that [Franken] has a staff to help him write things like this.

* * *

Franken beats CK -- although he had far better resources to help him
Slarti -- just curious to know why you think Franken (a) didn't write his apology by himself and (b) why Louis CK wouldn't have similar help. I know you don't come right out and say it, but the implication is there.

I'm sorry, but both of these implications are weird. I mean, aside from the fact that a staff exists, is there any fact you can point to that would support a claim that Franken didn't write his apology himself? And if he did, why would you think CK, who had a publicist at the time he issued his statement (but who later terminated representation), didn't have help with his?
I have no information that you don't have, I was just making (possibly naive) suppositions based on the kind of staff/support a comedian has and the kind of staff/support a US Senator has. If there was any other implication, it was unintentional. If I were in either situation, I would get as much help as I could and I hope and expect that both men took advantage of all of the resources they could, I just think that Franken is likely to have more. I would also point out that Franken, both at SNL and the Senate, was part of writing teams while Louis CK was a solo act. It's not something I think is inappropriate or even significant in either case, just some idyl speculation that I thought interesting.
To me it's a wash; I don't think either is more likely to have access to help than the other, nor do I think it is more likely that either would seek help than the other. There's no there there, I don't think.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#317

Post by p0rtia » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:24 pm

Maybenaut wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:28 pm
MRich wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:58 pm
Regarding Sen. Franken's statement: I think this is as good an apology as I've seen. He's owning what he did, saying it was wrong, not trying to explain it away.
And inviting an ethics investigation.
Which the R's in their current insanity, could go insane with. However, it also sets a precedent and is a nice move to throttle the endless you-sat-on-your-hands-when-Bill-Clinton-did-X-Y-Z. I think it's the right move. Happy to see D's on board, and Franken setting a model example (fingers crossed). I think it helps take away the free pass. (Taking about you fuckhead.)


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#318

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:01 pm

p0rtia wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:24 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:28 pm
MRich wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:58 pm
Regarding Sen. Franken's statement: I think this is as good an apology as I've seen. He's owning what he did, saying it was wrong, not trying to explain it away.
And inviting an ethics investigation.
Which the R's in their current insanity, could go insane with. However, it also sets a precedent and is a nice move to throttle the endless you-sat-on-your-hands-when-Bill-Clinton-did-X-Y-Z. I think it's the right move. Happy to see D's on board, and Franken setting a model example (fingers crossed). I think it helps take away the free pass. (Taking about you fuckhead.)
:like:


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#319

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:04 pm

p0rtia wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:24 pm
Maybenaut wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:28 pm
MRich wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:58 pm
Regarding Sen. Franken's statement: I think this is as good an apology as I've seen. He's owning what he did, saying it was wrong, not trying to explain it away.
And inviting an ethics investigation.
Which the R's in their current insanity, could go insane with. However, it also sets a precedent and is a nice move to throttle the endless you-sat-on-your-hands-when-Bill-Clinton-did-X-Y-Z. I think it's the right move. Happy to see D's on board, and Franken setting a model example (fingers crossed). I think it helps take away the free pass. (Taking about you fuckhead.)
While you're right that the Republicans could go insane with this, I think that too (also) would probably backfire on them in the end. Assuming that this incident is the only legitimate issue in Franken's past (and Franken should know whether or not this is true), then any piling on they do to Al should create gaping holes in their defense of Moore and Trump.

Maybenaut,

I never said it was something (in fact, I pointed out that it was orthogonal to the integrity of both men), let alone anything significant, but I'm fairly confident that the relative sizes of a comedian's staff/entourage and Senator's are generally very different and, like I said, if I was in that situation I'd get every scrap of help that I could.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#320

Post by Maybenaut » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:19 pm

From Time:

Radio Anchor Leeann Tweeden Says She Accepts Al Franken's Apology
Time Magazine wrote:Leeann Tweeden anchors a morning talk show for California radio station KABC. She says Franken wrote a skit for the pair during a 2006 USO tour to the Middle East and insisted they practice a kiss during rehearsal.

During a news conference Thursday, Tweeden said Franken had been persistent and stuck his tongue in her mouth.

She says she has no reason not to accept his apology. She says people make mistakes.

She isn’t calling for an ethics investigation or for the Minnesota senator to step down, but says she came forward hoping to inspire others to tell their stories.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#321

Post by Pompeed » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:00 pm

DejaMoo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:24 am
I'm very, very upset about this, because Al's my senator and I've been proud of him.



He's not my senator and I'm crushed.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#322

Post by DejaMoo » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:04 pm

Estiveo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:55 pm
Compare Senator Franken's statement below with Louis CK's and then tell me which man has integrity. (hint: Not Louis CK)

FrankenStatement.jpg
I'd be considerably angrier over this had this occurred after Franken had been elected to political office. This occurred two years before his first election, when he was still a private citizen, comedian by trade. That's a small point to some, but it is important to me that he was not then a US Senator, because yes I do hold political leaders, clergy and other social leaders to a higher standard.

Franken has a long history of volunteering to perform for the USO. In fact, he'd been doing so for seven years at the time this incident occurred. So he wasn't volunteering to enhance his future political ambitions, it was something he'd been doing as a private citizen. That's a recurring indication of character.

When my union went out on strike, our Local President (and personal friend of mine) received a phone call from Al himself within hours of the strike being announced. After identifying himself (he wasn't a Senator at that time, either,) he simply asked, "What can I do to help?" We were might glad of the offer, because we needed all the support and publicity we could get. We asked him to walk a picket line with us, which he did. When we held an impromptu rally, he took the microphone when offered to him and spoke out on our behalf.

To be honest, we usually have to reach out to find people who'll stand with us and speak with us. I was so grateful that Al took the initiative. (Incidentally, I hold Billy Bragg in equally high esteem, because when he was in town to give a show and we asked him to speak at a rally, he immediately agreed. He did more: he performed a short set at the rally. A wonderful, generous man.)

Al has a history of similar acts of generosity and support. He's very approachable still. That's how he's even earned the support of our Republican-inclined farmers. He's visited them, he's listened to them, he works on their behalf.

This doesn't mean he gets a pass. But to me, it indicates an overall good person who occasionally does bad things. I don't want him to step down over this. I'd vote for him again. . . if only because I truly feel our nation's future is at stake, and the last thing we need is to further lessen our numbers in Congress.



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#323

Post by MN-Skeptic » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:15 pm

:yeah:



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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#324

Post by RVInit » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:32 pm

I felt terrible when I heard about Franken. I was glad that his apology was unequivocal and that he didn't seem like he was trying to make excuses. I have always thought he seemed like a good guy. I think it's good that he openly offered to submit to an ethics investigation, something tells me this was a "one off". Not that it makes the action any less bad, but I think there is a good chance that this was a bad behavior by a generally good person. We will find out, that seems certain.


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Re: Democrats Behaving Badly

#325

Post by Foggy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:43 pm

I hope Franni is OK. She's a victim too. And after all she's been through ... I'm heartbroken and I'm angry.


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