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Republicans Behaving Badly

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Atticus Finch
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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2176

Post by Atticus Finch »

Northland10 wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:47 pm
Atticus Finch wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:25 pm Whose idea was to annex Republic of Texas back in 1845? Is there anyway we can give Texas back to Mexico, we can even throw in Oklahoma and the two Dakota states
The Dakota states can be given back to the Lakota.
You are right. I just want to get rid of as many red states as possible. I always wonder what our nation would be like if the south did secede from the Union. Imagine the United States without the burden of carrying those states that are still in the 50s, I mean, the 450s, the Dark Ages. All those Civil Rights Acts (1866, 1957, 1964), Voting Act of 1965), Fair Housing Act of 1968) and 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments were enacted because of the intransigence of the Southern States that refuse to allow its black citizens to have political equality.

I also wonder if the south did secede from the Union will slavery still be in existence or would it have faded away over time.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2177

Post by Frater I*I »

Atticus Finch wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:05 pm
I also wonder if the south did secede from the Union will slavery still be in existence or would it have faded away over time.
Haitian slave revolt comes to mind.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2178

Post by JohnPCapitalist »

Atticus Finch wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:05 pm I also wonder if the south did secede from the Union will slavery still be in existence or would it have faded away over time.
As you might expect, I tend to see a lot of those things through the lens of economics. The opposition to slavery was on moral grounds, of course. But at the same time, the invention of the cotton gin and other continuing improvements in agricultural technology over the 20-30 years following the Civil War would have rendered slavery a huge competitive liability. The appeal of slavery was that it gave slave owners free labor, and gave them a competitive advantage over farmers who had to pay farm hands. But if in a period of a few years your competitive advantage in labor cost was undercut by a dramatic margin due to the cotton gin and other types of equipment, suddenly, feeding slaves is not such a great business to be in.

Secondly, though I am not going to take time to come up with data to support this, I would speculate that had the South been able to win in the civil war and actually become a viable independent country, trade restrictions from the North and from European countries that had mostly already outlawed slavery, would have made it economically disastrous to continue to pursue slavery. I don't remember the relative population or wealth gap between north and south, but most of the money, manufacturing know-how and population were concentrated in the north. Additionally, the North had iron ore and other natural resources to support manufacturing that the South lacked.

The customers for the South's slave-grown cotton would have been in a separate country with a well-defended border to prevent slave cotton from being smuggled in to Northern factories. Northerners would have been able to invest in cotton production in Latin America to replace what they lost from the South in a post-Civil War embargo. And Southerners would have had a tough time importing railroad equipment and other equipment to build their infrastructure, since export of those types of materials would have been emabargoed by the North.

So my take would be that slavery was already on its last legs and would have disappeared in another couple decades due solely to economic forces. It certainly wouldn't be in effect today had the South prevailed in the Civil War and remained a separate country until today.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2179

Post by AndyinPA »

I often think about that, too. I also wonder how different it would have been had Lincoln not been assassinated. Johnson was not the right person to follow up after Lincoln was killed. There are lots of scenarios to ponder.

What would have happened:

if Lincoln had not been assassinated?

if the North had totally destroyed the South?

if there was succession and the South would have been allowed to leave?


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2180

Post by Northland10 »

JohnPCapitalist wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:27 pm
Atticus Finch wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:05 pm I also wonder if the south did secede from the Union will slavery still be in existence or would it have faded away over time.
As you might expect, I tend to see a lot of those things through the lens of economics.
I have considered that often. The retention of slavery was more a matter of pride and principle to the slave power, not an actual long-term economic choice. Though they fought tooth and nail to allow slavery to expand west, western farming was far more different than southern cotton plantations and that made slavery not all that useful out west. Yet, they still fought to keep and expand it because they were beholding to the concept. They knew no other way (not to mention, no liberal northerner is gonna tell us what to do).

I wonder if we are seeing the same thing with coal. The industry is pandering to a receptive Trump ear to protect what they had. However, it appears no giveaways and reduced regulations are going to help an industry where the biggest threat is not regulation but competition. So now, they want the politicians to not only remove the strings but give them preferred status and limit competition. This is not terribly different than the south pushing to not only keep slavery in their areas but actually push other states to support slavery (things like the fugitive slave laws).


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2181

Post by Atticus Finch »

Northland10 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:04 pm
JohnPCapitalist wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:27 pm
Atticus Finch wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:05 pm I also wonder if the south did secede from the Union will slavery still be in existence or would it have faded away over time.
As you might expect, I tend to see a lot of those things through the lens of economics.
I have considered that often. The retention of slavery was more a matter of pride and principle to the slave power, not an actual long-term economic choice. Though they fought tooth and nail to allow slavery to expand west, western farming was far more different than southern cotton plantations and that made slavery not all that useful out west. Yet, they still fought to keep and expand it because they were beholding to the concept. They knew no other way (not to mention, no liberal northerner is gonna tell us what to do).

I wonder if we are seeing the same thing with coal. The industry is pandering to a receptive Trump ear to protect what they had. However, it appears no giveaways and reduced regulations are going to help an industry where the biggest threat is not regulation but competition. So now, they want the politicians to not only remove the strings but give them preferred status and limit competition. This is not terribly different than the south pushing to not only keep slavery in their areas but actually push other states to support slavery (things like the fugitive slave laws).
Today's coal industry can be compare to the old wagon and carriage industry at the onset of the automobile industry at the beginning of the 20th century.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2182

Post by JohnPCapitalist »

Northland10 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:04 pm I wonder if we are seeing the same thing with coal. The industry is pandering to a receptive Trump ear to protect what they had. However, it appears no giveaways and reduced regulations are going to help an industry where the biggest threat is not regulation but competition. So now, they want the politicians to not only remove the strings but give them preferred status and limit competition. This is not terribly different than the south pushing to not only keep slavery in their areas but actually push other states to support slavery (things like the fugitive slave laws).
You're right that there is a lot of cultural identity mixed up with the alleged "war on coal." I suspect that it comes down to economics in some cases: those who signed up for the mines made dramatically more than those who didn't (2x or more the prevailing wage in an area), so they would have a substantially better life than their neighbors who didn't. A lot of status accrued from this, though it of course came with a huge cost in health from black lung disease and countless other injuries. So the loss of coal jobs also means that the status of miners in their communities is imperiled. It's no wonder that few miners have signed up for various job retraining programs that Democratic governors have implemented in places like Pennsylvania.

That said, I think we're way past the event horizon to save the coal industry. There are two principal uses for coal: steel production and power generation. Steel production, which requires higher-end coal, is all but dead and there's little chance it will come back to the US for many different reasons. And power plants are never going to build more plants. Solar and natural gas are now cheap enough that even if there are no environmental regulations for coal power plants and the government provides free coal for the lifetime of any new plant, it is still more expensive over time to run a coal plant. And natural gas and solar are more reliable -- few moving parts, you don't have to dump waste in giant toxic piles of ash, etc. "Outlawing" it is simply not going to happen, especially as there are now more jobs from wind energy in this country than coal.

It would be far cheaper to just pay the remaining coal miners their full salary until retirement than it would be to try to save the industry via subsidies and other nonsense. Fortunately, the current administration has a sufficiently short attention span that Trump has no memory of ever talking about coal, so it's not like they'll actually do much about prolonging the industry.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2183

Post by AndyinPA »

I can attest to that coal mining culture. My family mostly worked in the steel mills, but I have one cousin who grew up about 35 miles out of Pittsburgh right in the center of the mines. Her dad died at a fairly young age of black lung disease and decades later she is still a strong advocate for coal. It probably helps that she grew up in the Kentucky part of Pennsyltucky and is a republican.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2184

Post by neonzx »

AndyinPA wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:52 pm I can attest to that coal mining culture. My family mostly worked in the steel mills, but I have one cousin who grew up about 35 miles out of Pittsburgh right in the center of the mines. Her dad died at a fairly young age of black lung disease and decades later she is still a strong advocate for coal. It probably helps that she grew up in the Kentucky part of Pennsyltucky and is a republican.
I can attest, too. On my mother's side, grandpa was a European immigrant. Came here in 1916. Fought in WW1. And went to work in the coal mines. The town my mother grew up in was a company town -- built by the coal mine company. The houses were built and sold to workers by the company. There was a 'company store' (general store) on the main street. On my father's side, grandma was a cook on those coal barges we used to see navigating through the locks and rivers.

In the late 60s, when demand for coal and need for workers dropped, the youth left (including my mother and father).

No, coal isn't coming back and those glory days are gone forever. And those coal towns are just shells. :(

(my grandfather died of complications of Black Lung)


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2185

Post by Volkonski »

tssneegrlnaooi
@generationloss
·
13h
The New Mexico Republican Party hears there was a shooting at a protest, puts out a statement denouncing it...then it comes out that the shooter was a former republican candidate for office who shot someone for trying to pull down a statue, and they RETRACT THE STATEMENT.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by Volkonski »




Will Sommer
@willsommer
Google has banned conservative website The Federalist from its ad platform


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by bob »

Google has banned conservative website The Federalist from its ad platform
N.b.: The Federalist is not associated with the Federalist Society.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by Frater I*I »

bob wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:12 pm
Google has banned conservative website The Federalist from its ad platform
N.b.: The Federalist is not associated with the Federalist Society.
Damnit I was hoping it was that den of scum and villainy......


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by MN-Skeptic »

Well... darn.





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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by Kendra »


You invited a Holocaust Denier to the State of the Union. You are a conspiracy theorist and a lackey for the most inept, incompetent and illiberal President in American History. In an utterly rancid political moment you have established yourself as a buffoon without peer.
Short thread there wherein Steve Schmidt takes on Gaetz :thumbs:


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by Dr. Kenneth Noisewater »

Seems like such a great guy

GOP state senator’s aide resigns after video surfaces of him berating teens with racial slurs

An aide for Sen. Robert G. Ortt (R-NY) resigned this Monday after a video showing him using a racial epithet toward a 13-year-old girl and her friends surfaced on social media, The Buffalo News reports.

Ortt announced the resignation of his aide, Robert W. Welch, in a statement released on Monday.

“The employee in question submitted his resignation today and I accepted it. Beyond our official duties, I hold myself and my staff to the highest standards of professionalism and conduct. The employee’s actions in these videos did not meet those standards,” the statement read.
Videos at the link
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/06/gop-se ... ial-slurs/


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2192

Post by p0rtia »

Just read up on this story. Looks like the police response also needs review.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2193

Post by JohnPCapitalist »

Not entirely sure where to put this, but it's from a right-wing "news" site. Clearly a conservative slant. Article here: https://www.newstarget.com/2020-06-13-t ... olice.html

Some trucking magazine allegedly conducted a poll via their mobile app saying that 77% of truckers responding (which could be as small as seven out of 9 total respondents or it could be a higher number) would refuse to make pickups or deliveries in cities that have "defunded" the police, because of fears for their safety. It contains quotes from people who have claimed that they already told their dispatchers they wouldn't go in there. The rest of the article devolves quickly into hysterical screeching about the lawless libs and the need for moar gunz.

I thought this a chuckle, since the overall economic state for most truck drivers is "you're just one load away from calamity." Most independent operators couldn't afford to pass up a singe cross-country load offered to them and still make the payment on their rig. And given that 50% of population lives in the 25 largest cities, presumably the places most likely to "defund" the police, these idiots who really think they can refuse to go to any of those liberal hellholes are walking away from half their business.

I'm reminded of that right-wing poot protest in 2013, when somebody got a million "I'm going" indications for their "Ride for the Constitution" protest, where they were going to clog the beltway around Washington DC and bring the government to its knees, impeaching Obama and setting up right-wing heros as a junta. Of course, their million dreamed-of trucks ended up being about 30, as reported here:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... t/2962045/

But it's touching to see the fantasy that truckers can bring the evil libs to their knees by withholding delivery of needed supplies.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by RTH10260 »

Where will Ted Cruz get his toilette paper now ? :lol:


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2195

Post by GreatGrey »

So there’s a Bill n the House regarding DC Statehood.

Apparently the GOP is OK with that as long as DC agrees to replace every 50 star flag.

:brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:



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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by Whatever4 »

The Republicans will keep their heritage flags with 50 stars, Democrats will change to 51.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by Frater I*I »

This will go down in flames, McConnell already has said in the past he'd oppose this because it just hands the Dems 2 Senate votes and one House vote.

Of course he seems to miss why it would do so, say like his party's antiquated platform....


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by GreatGrey »

Frater I*I wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:20 pm This will go down in flames, McConnell already has said in the past he'd oppose this because it just hands the Dems 2 Senate votes and one House vote.

Of course he seems to miss why it would do so, say like his party's antiquated platform....
Yeabutt... saw something earlier today, McConnell still thinks he’s gonna be Majority Leader in January.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

#2199

Post by RVInit »

GreatGrey wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:25 pm
Frater I*I wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:20 pm This will go down in flames, McConnell already has said in the past he'd oppose this because it just hands the Dems 2 Senate votes and one House vote.

Of course he seems to miss why it would do so, say like his party's antiquated platform....
Yeabutt... saw something earlier today, McConnell still thinks he’s gonna be Majority Leader in January.
He knows he can count of half of the states to suppress the vote sufficiently to help Rethugs keep the Senate. So, yeah, I can see why he's not concerned.


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Re: Republicans Behaving Badly

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Post by bob »

RVInit wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:31 pmHe knows he can count of half of the states to suppress the vote sufficiently to help Rethugs keep the Senate. So, yeah, I can see why he's not concerned.
Democratic challengers are presently leading in Arizona, Colorado, Georgia (regular), Iowa, Maine, Montana, and North Carolina. And tied in South Carolina. Even if Jones loses in Alabama, that's more than enough.


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