The Democrats have to impeach him....

noblepa
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#26

Post by noblepa » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:30 pm

fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am

In sum, my position is that Democrats should be telling people what they are for, not why they are against Trump. Trump isn't an outsider anymore. He is the President. That means his ranting about how "they" are to blame for everything will ring much more hollow with voters this time around as long as Democrats don't give him ammunition by proving him right when he says that "they" hate him so much that they just want him out of office no matter what.

It's just a reality that you're never going to get 67 votes in the Senate. The Framers of the Constitution never imagined that partisanship would get that far. So what is the point of pursuing a trial when the outcome is a fait accompli? Hell, there's a lot of legal scholarship suggesting that Mitch McConnell (who never misses an opportunity to take a wrecking ball to our institutions) could simply refuse to hear the case if the House impeaches, or grant a motion to dismiss the impeachment at the outset of proceedings.

Winning elections isn't about "sending a message." It's about getting to 270. If nothing else, consider this: I live in Wisconsin. Trump is vulnerable here statewide, but he's coming to my town this weekend, and the #MAGA types are already getting excited. If you want to drive Republican turnout through the roof here and make it a lot harder for the Democrats to win Wisconsin - which is an absolute must-win if they want to take back the White House - impeaching Trump would be a very good way to do that. Republicans here want to argue about Trump's constant damaging of institutions. They view it as him trolling and owning the libs. They don't want to talk about how he has no plan for health care, his tax bill was a hot mess that screwed most Americans, and the DHS is kidnapping children.
As much as I would like to see Trump thrown out of office, I am not in favor of impeachment at this time.

If you attack the king, you had better strike a fatal blow right off the bat. That isn't going to happen. The republicans are absolutely not going to convict him in the Senate.

A failed impeachment would, IMHO, be worse than no impeachment at all. If impeachment fails, the right wing will trumpet it as a resounding success and virtually guarantee Trump's re-election. That must be avoided.

A successful impeachment would give us President Pence. That might be even worse than a Trump presidency. Unlike Trump, Pence has some understanding of how our government works and how to get things done. One saving grace of the Trump era is that he is so ignorant and disdainful of the way government works, that he hasn't been able to get all of his agenda accomplished. Pence might be more successful.

Even if the democrats decided today to impeach Trump, an impeachment trial would not happen before next summer. A failure would happen just a few months before the election, which would be disastrous for the dems.

The dems should continue their investigations, exposing Trump's taxes (I suspect he pays very little. I also suspect that he is no where near being a billionaire), exposing his conflicts of interest, his ties to Russia, etc.

But they should also be emphasizing what they are FOR. Simply running and saying "I'm not Trump" will not cut it. It won't motivate the democratic voters to come out and it won't win over any independent voters. They must have a positive program that resonates with the middle class and young voters.

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listeme
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#27

Post by listeme » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:45 pm

It won't motivate the democratic voters to come out and it won't win over any independent voters.
I dunno. I think people underestimate the antitrump feeling in this country.
We're used to being told it's our fault that men don't listen to us.

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Dan1100
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#28

Post by Dan1100 » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:24 pm

Like I said before, I'd like to see him impeached,but what's the rush?

There are a lot of steps between where we are and voting on impeachment. I for one believe that for every rock the House turns over, there will be more Trump graft and crime. They may/probably will find stuff that makes the Trump/Russia/Obstruction stuff look like jay walking. So, turn over every rock and see what orange worms slither out. Get that done and the next step will probably be obvious.

The first step is to get tough on the subpoenas. The DOJ is obviously compromised, so the Sergeant at Arms will need to start earning is pay.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#29

Post by neeneko » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:27 pm

listeme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:45 pm
It won't motivate the democratic voters to come out and it won't win over any independent voters.
I dunno. I think people underestimate the antitrump feeling in this country.
I imagine they are pouring over polling data trying to figure out just this question.

To impeach or not has nothing to do with abstract ideals or moral fortitude, but is instead a calculation on which voters you will alienate by either starting the procedure or not. Which is why I feel rather bad for the dem leadership, they are kinda screwed one way or the other and they have to figure out which course of action will give them the biggest hit.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#30

Post by Miss Meh » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:47 pm

noblepa wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:30 pm

As much as I would like to see Trump thrown out of office, I am not in favor of impeachment at this time.

If you attack the king, you had better strike a fatal blow right off the bat.
I agree...don't pull the trigger unless the evidence is so overwhelming that repubs in the Senate are afraid that not voting to convict would hurt their political fortunes.

Keep investigating so the info is out there for the public to see and hopefully public sentiment will start changing.

Or maybe Trump will have a "You're goddamned right i did!!!" moment :boxing:




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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#31

Post by Gregg » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:13 pm

With all the "if you set to kill the king, you better not miss" quotes, I'm reminded of another very similar sounding one with the opposite message, "If you start to take Vienna, TAKE VIENNA!" No quarter, phuck 'em...
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#32

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:08 am

Miss Meh wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:47 pm

I agree...don't pull the trigger unless the evidence is so overwhelming that repubs in the Senate are afraid that not voting to convict would hurt their political fortunes.

Keep investigating so the info is out there for the public to see and hopefully public sentiment will start changing.

Or maybe Trump will have a "You're goddamned right i did!!!" moment :boxing:
High probability!!! Or, "Obama did it."
Good to see you again, Miss Meh. :wave:
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#33

Post by voxpopuluxe » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:25 am

noblepa wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:30 pm
fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am

A failed impeachment would, IMHO, be worse than no impeachment at all. If impeachment fails, the right wing will trumpet it as a resounding success and virtually guarantee Trump's re-election. That must be avoided.
And if he is successfully impeached, the right wing will trumpet it as proof that there was a Deep State conspiracy to destroy Trump all along. Either way, "the right wing" will argue that events have proved them right. Making choices on the basis of worries about what your opponents will say is no way to choose.

Even a failed impeachment is better than no impeachment because 1) failing to even try to impeach him in the light of all the impeachable offences he's committed is an abdication of Congressional duties and a normalization of those offences and 2) there's no way that several months of hearings and slimy revelations will actually make Trump look more appealing to any one who isn't a cult member—and if you're worried about what those people think, then you've already lost. 3) Trump is entirely lawless at this point. Per Greg Sargent in today's WaPo, the only choices being offered here are full on confrontation or capitulation. Like it or not. And, finally 4) if nothing else, impeachment puts all this on the historical record—it says to someone, some day, that faced with a total attack on the American government, every option was exhausted to oppose it.

Anyway, the proper response to people saying "if you come at the king, you'd best not miss" is "Here's how you get him. He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue!"
How deep could the Deep State go if the Deep State could go deep?

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neonzx
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#34

Post by neonzx » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:10 pm

WaPost: A majority of Americans oppose impeachment. Most also say Trump lied to the public.
A majority of Americans say they oppose calls for Congress to launch impeachment proceedings against President Trump in the wake of special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election and whether the president sought to interfere with the probe, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll.

Thirty-seven percent of Americans favor starting the process that could lead to impeachment, a slight dip over the past month, while 56 percent say they oppose the idea, about the same as a month ago.

House Democrats are grappling with the question of how to proceed in light of Mueller’s findings and the public release of the redacted report, which detailed multiple examples of potential obstruction of justice. :snippity:

About 6 in 10 independents are against impeachment now, and independents are more opposed today than they were when measured in a January poll — a sign of the potential political danger for Democrats as they seek to win back key centrist voters in their goal of beating Trump next year. :snippity:
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#35

Post by Jeffrey » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:26 pm

There's a couple of silver linings in the poll that suggest maybe we don't really live in the post-truth era:
About 53 percent of those polled said the report did not clear the president, 47 percent said Trump tried to obstruct Mueller’s probe and 58 percent said they believed that Trump lied about matters that were under investigation, a majority (58 percent) said Mueller’s findings did not change their opinion of the president and a plurality (46 percent) said the report will not play a factor in their decision in whether to support Trump in 2020.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4408 ... hment-poll

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neonzx
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#36

Post by neonzx » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm

I'm wondering what percentage of Americans equate 'impeachment' with 'removal from office'? Perhaps a misunderstanding of what impeachment really is plays a factor in these polls?
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#37

Post by Whatever4 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:42 pm

neonzx wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm
I'm wondering what percentage of Americans equate 'impeachment' with 'removal from office'? Perhaps a misunderstanding of what impeachment really is plays a factor in these polls?

Considering how many mix up “your” and “you’re,” I think you are correct.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#38

Post by neonzx » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:16 pm

Whatever4 wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:42 pm
neonzx wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm
I'm wondering what percentage of Americans equate 'impeachment' with 'removal from office'? Perhaps a misunderstanding of what impeachment really is plays a factor in these polls?

Considering how many mix up “your” and “you’re,” I think you are correct.
Prior to Bill Clinton, the only other president impeached was Andrew Johnson. Somehow, during the Nixon/Watergate scandal fallout, the general public's understanding of 'impeachment' seemed to change to mean removal from office -- even though Nixon was never impeached because he resigned beforehand.
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#39

Post by Gregg » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:26 pm

C'mon, about 35% of Americans think we have a Monarch.

Look how hard it is to get even the media to report that "didn't find enough evidence to support" instead of the just "didn't find" or the the difficulty of seeing in the media the distinction between "decided not to indict" and "decided not to indict because of OSC Policy that says a President can't be indicted".

No Collusion! No Obstruction!

No wonder...
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#40

Post by Miss Meh » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:28 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:08 am

Good to see you again, Miss Meh. :wave:
Hi back! Been around, lurking
:thumbs:

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Fortinbras
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#41

Post by Fortinbras » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:08 am

If the Democrats want to go ahead with impeachment, in the face of a stonewalling Republican Senate, then at the very least the Democrats should amass evidence from more than just the Mueller Report. The case for impeachment should be airtight, not just flamboyant.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#42

Post by RVInit » Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:24 am

neonzx wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm
I'm wondering what percentage of Americans equate 'impeachment' with 'removal from office'? Perhaps a misunderstanding of what impeachment really is plays a factor in these polls?
This. Part of why I say Dems should hold public hearings, put the worst of what Trump and his wannabe oligarchs fully on display, That will take months and months. just don't call it impeachment hearings. Don't use that word. If public support for impeachment comes around, start actual impeachment hearings using that word. If not, keep up the hearings until it does or until he is voted out of office The damage is likely to sour enough people on voting for the asshole. Especially the ones that aren't hard core Trump humpers.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#43

Post by Jeffrey » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:55 am

RVInit wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:24 am
Part of why I say Dems should hold public hearings, put the worst of what Trump and his wannabe oligarchs fully on display
Doesn't the fact that most Americans agree Trump obstructed Justice and lied about the investigation mean they understand or are informed about the reports findings already?

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#44

Post by tek » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:02 am

Jeffrey wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:55 am
Doesn't the fact that most Americans agree Trump obstructed Justice and lied about the investigation mean they understand or are informed about the reports findings already?
Only superficially.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#45

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:15 am

RVInit wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:24 am
neonzx wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm
I'm wondering what percentage of Americans equate 'impeachment' with 'removal from office'? Perhaps a misunderstanding of what impeachment really is plays a factor in these polls?
This. Part of why I say Dems should hold public hearings, put the worst of what Trump and his wannabe oligarchs fully on display, That will take months and months. just don't call it impeachment hearings. Don't use that word. If public support for impeachment comes around, start actual impeachment hearings using that word. If not, keep up the hearings until it does or until he is voted out of office The damage is likely to sour enough people on voting for the asshole. Especially the ones that aren't hard core Trump humpers.
:like:
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#46

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:34 am

Trump's biggest fear is likely his fan base finding out he's a colossal failure and has been all his life. That's the only way I can explain the constant stream of how he's the bestest, bigliest, most awesome president ever (even better than that guy who was the father of our country, that other guy who prevented it from being torn apart, and that guy in the wheelchair who helped the Allies win WWII).

(Autocorrect changed "bigliest" to "bilgiest," which I could have left.)

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#47

Post by Slim Cognito » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:35 am

RVInit wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:24 am
neonzx wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:27 pm
I'm wondering what percentage of Americans equate 'impeachment' with 'removal from office'? Perhaps a misunderstanding of what impeachment really is plays a factor in these polls?
This. Part of why I say Dems should hold public hearings, put the worst of what Trump and his wannabe oligarchs fully on display, That will take months and months. just don't call it impeachment hearings. Don't use that word. If public support for impeachment comes around, start actual impeachment hearings using that word. If not, keep up the hearings until it does or until he is voted out of office The damage is likely to sour enough people on voting for the asshole. Especially the ones that aren't hard core Trump humpers.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#48

Post by RVInit » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:04 am

tek wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:02 am
Jeffrey wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:55 am
Doesn't the fact that most Americans agree Trump obstructed Justice and lied about the investigation mean they understand or are informed about the reports findings already?
Only superficially.
:yeah: I understand Jeffrey's point, but...it's a whole lot easier to keep supporting the pustule when you are only hearing from your bubble or you are a more casual supporter, not a Faux news watcher, but voted for him anyway. Those voters (more casual voters, former Obama voters) are the ones that can, and will, be swayed by truth seeking hearings that put the massive amount of corruption fully on display in a way that makes it impossible to keep making excuses for this abomination.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#49

Post by Gregg » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:48 am

You can't hold much in the way of hearings if the Administration is playing "Fuck the Pope, how many tanks does he have" and just defying subpeonas, refusing to let witnesses testify and the Justice Department can't be bothered to pursue Contempt charges. At best he can fight, ignore, appeal and defy every step of process to compel him to follow the law and we can have to courts finally say (hopefully, but not a sure bet right now) "no, the President cannot execute material witnesses on Fifth Avenue without trial" by about 2030 or so.
We are just about two steps from cancelling elections and declaring him Maximum Leader for Life, people.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#50

Post by Addie » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:51 am

Well said, Gregg :thumbs:
Gregg wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:48 am
You can't hold much in the way of hearings if the Administration is playing "Fuck the Pope, how many tanks does he have" and just defying subpeonas, refusing to let witnesses testify and the Justice Department can't be bothered to pursue Contempt charges. At best he can fight, ignore, appeal and defy every step of process to compel him to follow the law and we can have to courts finally say (hopefully, but not a sure bet right now) "no, the President cannot execute material witnesses on Fifth Avenue without trial" by about 2030 or so.
We are just about two steps from cancelling elections and declaring him Maximum Leader for Life, people.

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