The Democrats have to impeach him....

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Gregg
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The Democrats have to impeach him....

#1

Post by Gregg » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:26 pm

I thought a long time about this....
If the Democrats are not going to impeach him because its bad politics, they are no better than Republicans who won't vote for impeachment because it would hurt them within the party and the primaries. Both are cowards, and deep in their black hearts the Republicans don't like Trump much more than I do, but opposing him in any way means they might get a primary fight. Plain and simple, they sold their principles for an unopposed primary. history will look at them the way we now look at Nazis.
If the Democrats fail to act, even knowing that they can't convict in the Senate, history will at best look at them like we now look at ''the Good Germans".

Even if they think it will hurt them politically, Congress has a duty and not doing anything is saying its okay. Everything he's done is okay.
Just like the churches in Germany didn't say anything when they started rounding up Jews, its okay.


I don't want history to remember us like that.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#2

Post by MRich » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:45 pm

I'm hoping that eventually the House will vote to impeach him.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#3

Post by AndyinPA » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:15 pm

I totally agree he should be impeached. And if he's not convicted in the Senate, let the shame be on the republicans who won't vote against him as it will surely be against the Democrats who don't impeach him. It is not partisan; it's about doing the right thing.

I'm willing to wait for some time while the Democrats get their ducks in a row, but what I see now says he is worthy of impeachment now.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#4

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:44 pm

AndyinPA wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:15 pm
I totally agree he should be impeached. And if he's not convicted in the Senate, let the shame be on the republicans who won't vote against him as it will surely be against the Democrats who don't impeach him. It is not partisan; it's about doing the right thing.

I'm willing to wait for some time while the Democrats get their ducks in a row, but what I see now says he is worthy of impeachment now.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#5

Post by Sunrise » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:50 pm

AndyinPA wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:15 pm
I totally agree he should be impeached. And if he's not convicted in the Senate, let the shame be on the republicans who won't vote against him as it will surely be against the Democrats who don't impeach him. It is not partisan; it's about doing the right thing.

I'm willing to wait for some time while the Democrats get their ducks in a row, but what I see now says he is worthy of impeachment now.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#6

Post by Gregg » Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:36 am

Can you imagine if Obama had told Congress to piss off because he thought they were too partisan? Sean Hannity's head would explode on all over Tucker Carlson. Rush Limbaugh would be mobilizing the militias and the real RWNJs would be holding Cross Burnings.

Have we been gaslighted (gas lit?) this much that we let the President just say Fuck You to the law? What happens if he fights the subpeonas and the courts rule against hem, and he still won't comply? What if the House Sergeant at Arms starts arresting White House staffers who won't show up for hearings? We're real damn close to a quiet overthrow of the government from within.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#7

Post by Patagoniagirl » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:49 am

Thank you Gregg for putting into words my thoughts exactly. This whole Trainwreck of our Democracy makes me ill. I listened to Pelosi and I yelled out, What the fuck does this asshole have to do before you all get some integrity balls? To not act because it might be politically sketchy (in her thinking) is nothing more than cowardice and it is shirking their duty to tlhe people of the United States. I cannot watch.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#8

Post by Lani » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:43 am

Gregg wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:36 am
:snippity: What happens if he fights the subpeonas and the courts rule against hem, and he still won't comply?
Trump and his compromised GOP buddies have stacked the courts. The laws we rely on are disappearing.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#9

Post by Clairez » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:35 am

Impeach Now!! What are we waiting for? I could understand waiting on the Mueller report but now it is out and contains clear evidence that he obstructed justice. :madguy: If Cohen is heading to prison for violating campaign finance laws certainly he should have the company of the person who he violated the law as a co-conspirator!!

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#10

Post by neonzx » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:53 am

Trump and Massive Resistance
By Josh Marshall
April 23, 2019 12:13 pm
I’ve hinted at this in a few posts. It’s time to confront it head on. The White House isn’t doing the standard tussling with Congress about oversight: some stonewalling, some negotiation, taking some questions of privilege to court. It’s more accurately characterized as massive resistance. The Congress has a constitutionally mandated responsibility to oversee the executive branch. They are flatly refusing to comply with ordinary document production and testimonial requests across the board. It’s not a difference of degree but of kind. In itself it is an impeachment worthy refusal to follow the constitutionally mandated framework of American government. It’s up to Democrats to make this clear.

Now, what do the Democrats do? Some of it they’re already doing. Some of this will go to the Courts. They will need to request speedy resolution of open questions, while being careful not to forego the possibility of more positive decisions in the lower courts which might constrain, to some limited degree, Supreme Court adventurism.

The Congress will also need to try out some of its almost never used powers to literally compel testimony and document production.

But as much as anything else this is a political conflict: how to bring to heel a lawless President. The big error I see so far is that these joustings are being treated as legitimate legal processes which must be allowed to work their way through conventional processes and the courts. That’s not right and it gives the President free rein to try to run out the clock on any sort of oversight. Democrats need to find a language for the political debate that makes clear these are not tedious legal processes which will run their course. They are active cover-ups and law breaking, ones that confirm the President’s bad acting status and add to his and his top advisors legal vulnerability.
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#11

Post by Mikedunford » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:54 am

It kind of feels like if we impeach Trump, he wins. And if we don't impeach Trump, he wins.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#12

Post by p0rtia » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:06 am

What Gregg said. The law doesn't apply to rich white criminals or abusers. Nice to know.

Put another way: Might is Right.

That always ends well.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#13

Post by listeme » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:41 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:54 am
It kind of feels like if we impeach Trump, he wins. And if we don't impeach Trump, he wins.
So we do what we feel is most right then.

I haz pitchforks.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#14

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:55 am

p0rtia wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:06 am
What Gregg said. The law doesn't apply to rich white criminals or abusers. Nice to know.

Put another way: Might is Right.

That always ends well.
My day job is a daily reminder of these facts.

If impeaching Trump results in him getting re-elected, it's a bad call. Full stop.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#15

Post by RVInit » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:41 am

Mikedunford wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:54 am
It kind of feels like if we impeach Trump, he wins. And if we don't impeach Trump, he wins.
Exactly. I think Democrats should slow walk impeachment. Just slowly and steadily and relentlessly hold hearings to gather evidence. They don't have to use the word "impeachment". Make all the hearings public. The public has to see and hear these things. Drag it on all through the election. If Trump is re-elected, at that point they can actually start impeachment hearings. If he's not re-elected, the new justice department can charge him with the obstruction of justice he so obviously committed. I think Democrats would be making a huge mistake to just come right out and hold "impeachment" hearings right now. Impeachment cannot happen without the support of the public, they need to be convinced by seeing and hearing. The redacted Mueller report made Trump's job approval drop by 5 points, but that will be temporary. But, if Democrats keep holding public hearings, that number can go lower and stay lower.

The word "impeachment" and the official "impeachment hearings" can happen once the public is on board. It is doomed to failure as long as the public is NOT along for the ride.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#16

Post by p0rtia » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:45 am

fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:55 am
p0rtia wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:06 am
What Gregg said. The law doesn't apply to rich white criminals or abusers. Nice to know.

Put another way: Might is Right.

That always ends well.
My day job is a daily reminder of these facts.

If impeaching Trump results in him getting re-elected, it's a bad call. Full stop.
Why would you think that this would happen? Why would you think that it is probable? Why is this not simply fear-mongering?
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#17

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:51 am

p0rtia wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:45 am
fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:55 am
p0rtia wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:06 am
What Gregg said. The law doesn't apply to rich white criminals or abusers. Nice to know.

Put another way: Might is Right.

That always ends well.
My day job is a daily reminder of these facts.

If impeaching Trump results in him getting re-elected, it's a bad call. Full stop.
Why would you think that this would happen? Why would you think that it is probable? Why is this not simply fear-mongering?
Because I remember the shellacking the Republicans took in the 1998 midterm elections because they were pursuing impeachment. Impeaching Clinton for lying under oath and obstructing justice (yes, about an affair, but set that aside) made his poll numbers go up. I wrote an undergraduate thesis on the impact of the impeachment proceedings on the Clinton Administration. From a pure approve/disapprove perspective, the verdict was clear: Clinton gained, Republicans lost. Facts, not fear-mongering.
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#18

Post by tek » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:06 am

:yeah:
There's no way back
from there to here

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#19

Post by listeme » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:24 am

That set aside isn't minor.

Also, 2000 came.

Also, it's still just prognosticating.

Also, I really believe we are in unprecedented circumstances.

So. My opinion differs, to a large extent. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#20

Post by Foggy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:35 am

Whatever hurts him the hardest.

Investigate and investigate and do a good job of pushing all the evidence into America's living rooms on the Tee Vee.

Then start impeachment hearings and draw out every scrap of that evidence. We might not get a fair trial in the Senate, so try it in the House impeachment hearings.

And no shortcuts. As many impeachment counts as possible, each backed up with clear and irrefutable evidence.

Impeachment helped Clinton because it was a travesty - he was impeached for having an adulterous affair with a consenting adult woman, and it had no effect on the way he governed this great land of ours. Trump is a very, very, VERY different case. Done correctly, impeachment will drag him through his own pile of shit for months on end.

Take it slow, do a professional job, and IMPEACH THE MOTHERFUCKER.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#21

Post by Patagoniagirl » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:53 am

Courts stacked.
Environmental protections shredded.
Voter laws reeled back decades.
Acting Cabinet Officials to avoid Senate Approval.
Adoration of vile dictators.
Non-condemnation of Russian interference in election.
Violations of Emmoluments Clause.
Outrageous, outright Nepotism.
Dangerously derogatory statements against media.
Dangerously derogatory statements against INTEL.
Hamstringing Senate from oversight.

Just how much more damage Trump can do to our Democracy should be enough to stop him now.

I am sure there are more things for the list. Trump, McConnell, Barr, etc. have discovered that they can "just say no" to Senate oversight and Dems cower in their corner whimpering about how it would look politically to reach around and find their fucking balls and DO SOMETHING!

Millions more people voted for Hillary that Trump. Don't forget that. AND I am willing to wager we now have even more who have seen the light and would choose to not vote for him again.

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#22

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:54 am

listeme wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:24 am
That set aside isn't minor. It really is for the purpose of pointing out the obstruction and perjury are illegal without regard to what you are trying to cover up. I'm a lawyer, and I would never attempt to make the argument that my client's obstructing an investigation or lying under oath are made justifiable because he was trying to conceal embarrassing facts.

Also, 2000 came. Because Clinton was a lame duck. His poll numbers in November of 2000 were such that he would have beaten G.W. Bush if he had been on the ballot. Gore lost because he was seen as an out-of-touch intellectual, not for any reasons having to do with impeachment. If anything, his choice of Lieberman (whose only claim to fame at the time was that he had pointedly voted to remove Clinton) as his running mate basically legitimized the impeachment by highlighting the fact that even a Democrat voted to remove POTUS for high crimes and misdemeanors. If you think Republicans will be so obliging this time around, you enjoy an optimism unsupported by the evidence.

Also, it's still just prognosticating. Fair.

Also, I really believe we are in unprecedented circumstances. Not really. We haven't seen any evidence of the President using the national security apparatus (CIA, FBI, NSA) or other government agencies (IRS) as essentially government arms of his political campaign the way Nixon did, or at least tried to do. Which is not to say that Trump won't eventually go there. But let's not hyperventilate.

So. My opinion differs, to a large extent. :mrgreen:
In sum, my position is that Democrats should be telling people what they are for, not why they are against Trump. Trump isn't an outsider anymore. He is the President. That means his ranting about how "they" are to blame for everything will ring much more hollow with voters this time around as long as Democrats don't give him ammunition by proving him right when he says that "they" hate him so much that they just want him out of office no matter what.

It's just a reality that you're never going to get 67 votes in the Senate. The Framers of the Constitution never imagined that partisanship would get that far. So what is the point of pursuing a trial when the outcome is a fait accompli? Hell, there's a lot of legal scholarship suggesting that Mitch McConnell (who never misses an opportunity to take a wrecking ball to our institutions) could simply refuse to hear the case if the House impeaches, or grant a motion to dismiss the impeachment at the outset of proceedings.

Winning elections isn't about "sending a message." It's about getting to 270. If nothing else, consider this: I live in Wisconsin. Trump is vulnerable here statewide, but he's coming to my town this weekend, and the #MAGA types are already getting excited. If you want to drive Republican turnout through the roof here and make it a lot harder for the Democrats to win Wisconsin - which is an absolute must-win if they want to take back the White House - impeaching Trump would be a very good way to do that. Republicans here want to argue about Trump's constant damaging of institutions. They view it as him trolling and owning the libs. They don't want to talk about how he has no plan for health care, his tax bill was a hot mess that screwed most Americans, and the DHS is kidnapping children.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#23

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:32 am

Foggy wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:35 am
Whatever hurts him the hardest.

Investigate and investigate and do a good job of pushing all the evidence into America's living rooms on the Tee Vee.

Then start impeachment hearings and draw out every scrap of that evidence. We might not get a fair trial in the Senate, so try it in the House impeachment hearings.

And no shortcuts. As many impeachment counts as possible, each backed up with clear and irrefutable evidence.

Impeachment helped Clinton because it was a travesty - he was impeached for having an adulterous affair with a consenting adult woman, and it had no effect on the way he governed this great land of ours. Trump is a very, very, VERY different case. Done correctly, impeachment will drag him through his own pile of shit for months on end.

Take it slow, do a professional job, and IMPEACH THE MOTHERFUCKER.

:torches:
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#24

Post by p0rtia » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:26 am

fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:51 am
p0rtia wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:45 am
fierceredpanda wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:55 am


My day job is a daily reminder of these facts.

If impeaching Trump results in him getting re-elected, it's a bad call. Full stop.
Why would you think that this would happen? Why would you think that it is probable? Why is this not simply fear-mongering?
Because I remember the shellacking the Republicans took in the 1998 midterm elections because they were pursuing impeachment. Impeaching Clinton for lying under oath and obstructing justice (yes, about an affair, but set that aside) made his poll numbers go up. I wrote an undergraduate thesis on the impact of the impeachment proceedings on the Clinton Administration. From a pure approve/disapprove perspective, the verdict was clear: Clinton gained, Republicans lost. Facts, not fear-mongering.
Ah, okay, thanks. So, setting aside the fact that the reasons for impeachment now are not comparable to the reasons for impeaching Clinton, what I'm reading--and there are endless editorials on the topic--is that the "Dems will suffer just like Reps did during Clinton" is not actually true (meaning the Reps did not suffer). Got stuff to do right now (gardening! :-)) but will find one such article and most later.

In general, I think your side of the argument is based on generalized fear of upsetting MAGA voters. I'm one of those who rejects that. Anyway, good discussion. I'll be back!
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Re: The Democrats have to impeach him....

#25

Post by Slim Cognito » Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:05 pm

I'm all for slow-walking impeachment hearings. Drag them on and make them public. Very public. Schedule them far apart and talk every day about who is next to testify and what they expect to hear from them. I don't want the inevitable acquittal in the Senate to be the climax. I want the patently obvious law breaking by trump and the mealy-mouthed support of the GOP to be the headlines Every Damn Day. And when the GOP cries "Not Fair!," we can remind them we're following the republican playbook about Hillary's (FBI-determined not-criminal treatment of her) emails.

How to do that, I don't know. Hopefully Pelosi is working on it. How do you enforce subpoenas when trump has the AG in his back pocket, telling witnesses not to testify?
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