Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

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Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#1

Post by Addie » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:14 pm

Daily Beast
House Dems Plan to Censure Trump for 'Sh*thole' Comments

Congressional Black Caucus Chairman Cedric Richmond (D-LA) and House Judiciary Committee Ranking Member Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) announced on Friday afternoon they will introduce a resolution to censure President Trump over his reported comments about immigrants coming from “shithole” countries. “These remarks have compelled us to prepare a resolution of censure with our colleagues next week, to condemn President Trump for his racist statements,” the Democrats said in a joint statement. “This censure resolution is important because America is a beacon of hope. We have to show the world that this president does not represent the real feelings of most of the American people which is part of the reason why he lost the popular vote” They plan to introduce the resolution after the Martin Luther King Day holiday.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re Shithole

#2

Post by Suranis » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 pm

Chance of passing - about as much as the chance of getting ice in the drinks in the cocktail lounge of hell.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re Shithole

#3

Post by bob » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:27 pm

Suranis wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 pm
Chance of passing - about as much as the chance of getting ice in the drinks in the cocktail lounge of hell.
Yeah; just the usual election-year "hard-votes" fodder. But the attack ads in October should be interesting.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re Shithole

#4

Post by p0rtia » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:30 pm

Stating the obvious, Suranis. If passage was the only point in bringing forward the resolution, that might be important, but it's not.

Politicians who do not stand up for the truth and for what is unequivocally right because they're pretty sure nothing concrete will come of it piss me off.

Words matter. Taking a stand is important. Creating rallying points is important.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re Shithole

#5

Post by Suranis » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:31 pm

I don't disagree.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re Shithole

#6

Post by Volkonski » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:32 pm

Suranis wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:21 pm
Chance of passing - about as much as the chance of getting ice in the drinks in the cocktail lounge of hell.
Yes, but it forces the Republicans to defend the President and tie themselves to his racism.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#7

Post by Addie » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:41 pm

HuffPo
Dianne Feinstein: If Trump Can't Stop Being Racist, He Needs To Go

WASHINGTON ― Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) said Friday that President Donald Trump’s comments about African nations being “shithole countries” are “beneath the dignity of the presidency,” and if he can’t take his job seriously, he shouldn’t have it.

“If the president can’t control himself and lead this country with the authority, dignity and leadership it requires, then he shouldn’t be the president,” she said in a scathing statement. “There’s no room for racism in the Oval Office.”

Feinstein, the top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, said people need to be clear about what Trump was really saying when, during a Thursday meeting with senators, he rejected their idea of cutting the visa lottery in half and allotting the rest to underrepresented countries in Africa and nations like Haiti that have temporary protective status. That designation lets people stay in the U.S. after natural disasters or other crises in their home nations.

Trump reportedly said no to that proposal, referred to African nations as “shithole countries,” asked why the United States needs any more Haitians, and then said people from Norway would be more welcome.

“The president’s expressed desire to see more immigrants from countries like Norway must be called out for what it is: an effort to set this country back generations by promoting a homogenous, white society,” Feinstein said. “We all need to stop pretending that there are no consequences when the most powerful person in the world espouses racist views and gives a wink and a nod to the darkest elements in our society.”


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#8

Post by Addie » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:43 am

The Atlantic - James Fallows
Have They No Sense of Decency?

In the “shithole era,” the Republican U.S. senators who object to the president’s vulgarity have a choice to make.

“Have you no sense of decency?” It’s the question that the members of the Republican majority in the Congress—51 senators, 239 representatives—might bear in mind, in the “shithole” era.

If only two of those senators would stand up against Donald Trump, with their votes rather than just their tweets or concerned statements, they would constitute an effective majority.

With the 49 Democratic and independent senators, these two would make 51 votes, which in turn would be enough to authorize real investigations. They could pass a formal resolution of censure. They could call for tax returns and financial disclosure. They could begin hearings, on the model of the nationally televised Watergate hearings of 45 years ago.

They could behave as if they took seriously their duties to hold the executive branch accountable. They could make a choice they know will be to their credit when this era enters history — as did the Republicans who finally turned against their own party’s President Nixon during the Watergate drama, as did the Democrats who finally turned against their own party’s President Johnson over the Vietnam war, as did the Republicans who finally turned against their own poisonous Senator McCarthy in the episode that gave rise to “Have you no sense of decency?” more than 60 years ago. They could spare themselves the shame that history attaches to people who did the wrong thing, or nothing, or kept looking the other way during those decisive periods.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#9

Post by AndyinPA » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:51 am

Addie wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:43 am
The Atlantic - James Fallows
Have They No Sense of Decency?

In the “shithole era,” the Republican U.S. senators who object to the president’s vulgarity have a choice to make.

“Have you no sense of decency?” It’s the question that the members of the Republican majority in the Congress—51 senators, 239 representatives—might bear in mind, in the “shithole” era.

If only two of those senators would stand up against Donald Trump, with their votes rather than just their tweets or concerned statements, they would constitute an effective majority.

With the 49 Democratic and independent senators, these two would make 51 votes, which in turn would be enough to authorize real investigations. They could pass a formal resolution of censure. They could call for tax returns and financial disclosure. They could begin hearings, on the model of the nationally televised Watergate hearings of 45 years ago.

They could behave as if they took seriously their duties to hold the executive branch accountable. They could make a choice they know will be to their credit when this era enters history — as did the Republicans who finally turned against their own party’s President Nixon during the Watergate drama, as did the Democrats who finally turned against their own party’s President Johnson over the Vietnam war, as did the Republicans who finally turned against their own poisonous Senator McCarthy in the episode that gave rise to “Have you no sense of decency?” more than 60 years ago. They could spare themselves the shame that history attaches to people who did the wrong thing, or nothing, or kept looking the other way during those decisive periods.
I'd like to be surprised, but it's not going to happen. republicans march in lock step.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#10

Post by Fortinbras » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am

Before we all gather rocks to throw at Trump, I'd like to remind everybody that Bill Maher used the same expression - on HBO in 2013 - to describe countries in Africa and the Middle East where self-styled well-equipped terrorist armies are running around, using pickup trucks for their troop movements. And nobody called him racist for that.

Have you seen the living conditions of most of the citizens of the countries Trump was speaking of? You wouldn't confuse their living standards with the living standards of Norway. In fact, you'd probably use the same expression.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#11

Post by Volkonski » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:16 am

Fortinbras wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am
Before we all gather rocks to throw at Trump, I'd like to remind everybody that Bill Maher used the same expression - on HBO in 2013 - to describe countries in Africa and the Middle East where self-styled well-equipped terrorist armies are running around, using pickup trucks for their troop movements. And nobody called him racist for that.

Have you seen the living conditions of most of the citizens of the countries Trump was speaking of? You wouldn't confuse their living standards with the living standards of Norway. In fact, you'd probably use the same expression.
The outrage has little to do with Trump's choice of adjectives. It has to do with Trump's racist ideas about immigration policy.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#12

Post by Suranis » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:17 am

Bill Maher is an Asshole too.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#13

Post by Flatpointhigh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:13 pm

There is precedent: the 1834 Censure of Andrew Jackson:

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... es-jackson
During his first term, Jackson decided to dismantle the Bank of the United States and find a friendlier source of funds for his western expansion plans. Jackson, who embodied the popular image of the Wild West frontiersman, claimed that the bank had too many foreign investors, favored the rich over the poor and resisted lending funds to develop commercial interests in America’s Western territories. When the Senate passed legislation in 1831 to renew the bank’s charter, Jackson promptly vetoed it. An 1831 meeting with his cabinet generated classified documents regarding Jackson’s veto of the bank legislation. Soon after, Congress overruled Jackson’s veto.

One of the key issues in the election of 1832, between Jackson, a Democrat, and Whig (Republican) Henry Clay, was the bank’s survival. Jackson easily won reelection, but Clay’s Whigs took control of the Senate. Jackson renewed his attack on the bank early in his second term, appointing a new treasury secretary whom he ordered to dismantle the bank and distribute all federal funds to individual state banks until a new federal bank could be organized. The Senate, with Clay at its helm, fought Jackson’s attempts to destroy the bank, passing a resolution demanding to see his cabinet’s papers regarding the veto of 1831. When Jackson refused to release the documents, Clay retaliated by introducing a resolution to censure the president.

Congress debated the proposed censure for 10 weeks. Jackson protested, saying that since the Constitution did not provide any guidance regarding censure of a president, the resolution to censure him was therefore unconstitutional. Congress ignored him, slapping him on March 28 with what amounted to an official public scolding for assuming authority and power not conferred by the Constitution.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#14

Post by TollandRCR » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:24 pm

Suranis wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:17 am
Bill Maher is an Asshole too.
I completely agree although our political views may be similar. I saw him in person once (at a CT casino) and decided that he was uninterested in changing our hearts and minds. You don’t do that by yelling at people or by offending them. We had a radio host in Hartford who did that. I tried once to cope with him.

If Maher is the best that Democrats have going, then we are in trouble and my independent registration is right.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#15

Post by Kendra » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 pm

Might as well dump there here as another thread.




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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#16

Post by MN-Skeptic » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:09 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am
Before we all gather rocks to throw at Trump, I'd like to remind everybody that Bill Maher used the same expression - on HBO in 2013 - to describe countries in Africa and the Middle East where self-styled well-equipped terrorist armies are running around, using pickup trucks for their troop movements. And nobody called him racist for that.

Have you seen the living conditions of most of the citizens of the countries Trump was speaking of? You wouldn't confuse their living standards with the living standards of Norway. In fact, you'd probably use the same expression.
The problem lies with the context.

Trump pretty much believes that the overwhelming number of blacks in America are either criminals or lazy f*cks who cheat the welfare system. Ditto for Hispanics, except for the ones who have taken the jobs from Americans. They're the illegal immigrants who need to be thrown out of the country.

If I think of a country being a shithole country, I'm thinking of the poverty, the bad government, the wars, etc. However, I'm not blaming the suffering residents for causing their own poverty, or being responsible for the terrorism or the corrupt government. The citizens are working harder every day to survive than what I have to do in my cozy home in a nice neighborhood in America. Those citizens are victims of their birth. Trump, like many conservatives, blame victims for their circumstances. You saw that with Puerto Rico, where Trump didn't want to help Puerto Rico because of the financial problems the government has.

Trump does not see folks living in Haiti or warring countries, or countries mired in poverty, as victims. He sees them as the cause of their counties' problems and believes that bringing them here just brings their poverty and their corruption and radicalism.

I don't know how to fix, or help, shithole countries. I don't know how I can fix the corrupt governments of the world.

However, the overwhelming population of this world wants peace, clean water, food to eat, safe neighborhoods for their children to grow up. The overwhelming population of this world wants to be productive. Individual people are the folks wanting to come to America and, like my ancestors, they want to live in a safe country and contribute to its growth and stability.

Trump can't see the individual people in poor countries because of his prejudices and that's why his comments within the context of immigration talk is so appalling.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#17

Post by TollandRCR » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:20 pm

Is the US president any longer the most powerful person in the world? I doubt it. Of course, having the largest nuclear stockpile still means something. But what can any president do with that? Bomb North Korea to the opprobrium and distress of every other country and most Americans?

Power no longer comes at the tip of a missile or the barrel of a gun. Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan should have taught us that. Money does not buy power; Canada and Mexico should have shown us that. Nor does propaganda get us power.

President Obama had a sense of the source of power: morality. That means nothing to Trump. Which means that America is doomed to be powerless for a while. Which also means that Democrats need to find a moral leader in 2010. That candidate may be a Christian who speaks in Christian language. We could easily pick a worse moral foundation. But the candidate must not be a Dominionist. This is hard. If I had my druthers I would pick a reform Jew or Boston Unitarian.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#18

Post by Maybenaut » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:26 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am
Before we all gather rocks to throw at Trump, I'd like to remind everybody that Bill Maher used the same expression - on HBO in 2013 - to describe countries in Africa and the Middle East where self-styled well-equipped terrorist armies are running around, using pickup trucks for their troop movements. And nobody called him racist for that.

Have you seen the living conditions of most of the citizens of the countries Trump was speaking of? You wouldn't confuse their living standards with the living standards of Norway. In fact, you'd probably use the same expression.
:gotalink:
The reason I ask is that I find it difficult to believe that “nobody called [Maher] a racist for that.” Maher’s been accused of racism for a long time by a lot of people. If I knew which episode you were referring to, I’d likely find some response to it.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#19

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:32 pm

Censure Trump? Not in this Congress.

Why Trump is different from Maher (although both are assholes)? Trump turns his bigotry into policy, regulations and law.

The most powerful man in the world? Vladimir Putin.

The leader of the free world? Angela Merkle.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#20

Post by maydijo » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:53 pm

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:09 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:59 am
Before we all gather rocks to throw at Trump, I'd like to remind everybody that Bill Maher used the same expression - on HBO in 2013 - to describe countries in Africa and the Middle East where self-styled well-equipped terrorist armies are running around, using pickup trucks for their troop movements. And nobody called him racist for that.

Have you seen the living conditions of most of the citizens of the countries Trump was speaking of? You wouldn't confuse their living standards with the living standards of Norway. In fact, you'd probably use the same expression.
The problem lies with the context.

Trump pretty much believes that the overwhelming number of blacks in America are either criminals or lazy f*cks who cheat the welfare system. Ditto for Hispanics, except for the ones who have taken the jobs from Americans. They're the illegal immigrants who need to be thrown out of the country.

If I think of a country being a shithole country, I'm thinking of the poverty, the bad government, the wars, etc. However, I'm not blaming the suffering residents for causing their own poverty, or being responsible for the terrorism or the corrupt government. The citizens are working harder every day to survive than what I have to do in my cozy home in a nice neighborhood in America. Those citizens are victims of their birth. Trump, like many conservatives, blame victims for their circumstances. You saw that with Puerto Rico, where Trump didn't want to help Puerto Rico because of the financial problems the government has.

Trump does not see folks living in Haiti or warring countries, or countries mired in poverty, as victims. He sees them as the cause of their counties' problems and believes that bringing them here just brings their poverty and their corruption and radicalism.

I don't know how to fix, or help, shithole countries. I don't know how I can fix the corrupt governments of the world.

However, the overwhelming population of this world wants peace, clean water, food to eat, safe neighborhoods for their children to grow up. The overwhelming population of this world wants to be productive. Individual people are the folks wanting to come to America and, like my ancestors, they want to live in a safe country and contribute to its growth and stability.

Trump can't see the individual people in poor countries because of his prejudices and that's why his comments within the context of immigration talk is so appalling.
Exactly that. I would add that Maher isn't in a position to do a damned thing; but Trump is. By dismissing all of these countries as 'shithole countries' Trump is saying that he doesn't care about trying to improve things, either for the countries as a whole or for their citizens.

As for the highlighted area, if it was easy, it would've happened by now. Development has been a field since the 1950s and in that time the gains have been incrementally small. But that doesn't mean it's a pointless exercise. Macro change is difficult. But micro change is not. So what's the point of helping to change one person's life if they still live in a terrible, oppressive, poor country? Because that one person is worth something - and because that one person never lives in isolation. Success is getting one villager to understand that his daughter's intelligence is a good thing, and that she should be allowed to go to high school. Success is getting one member of the ethnic and religious majority to understand that the ethnic and religious minority are not bad people, just because they worship a different god. Success is providing a village with clean water, and the education and skills to know how to maintain a well, and the understanding of why it is so important. So how can you help? By understanding that development is a long hard slog, and - if you can afford to do so - by donating to good, reputable organisations.

How could Trump help? By increasing the development and aid balance. By encouraging immigration - in many of these countries, having a family member who works overseas and remits money back is the difference between a poverty-level existence or a middle-class existence. (We could of course have a whole other debate about whether or not that is ethical or 'good', but I'm just stating the facts here.) By looking past his own racism and prejudice to find the humanity in the people he denigrates. By encouraging diplomatic solutions to at least lessen the impact of dictatorships. There are real, practical things Trump could do to effect positive change. Instead he's washing his hands of the entire situation and dismissing half the world as beyond helping.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#21

Post by MN-Skeptic » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:15 pm

maydijo wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:53 pm


How could Trump help? By increasing the development and aid balance. By encouraging immigration - in many of these countries, having a family member who works overseas and remits money back is the difference between a poverty-level existence or a middle-class existence. (We could of course have a whole other debate about whether or not that is ethical or 'good', but I'm just stating the facts here.) By looking past his own racism and prejudice to find the humanity in the people he denigrates. By encouraging diplomatic solutions to at least lessen the impact of dictatorships. There are real, practical things Trump could do to effect positive change. Instead he's washing his hands of the entire situation and dismissing half the world as beyond helping.
Not going to happen. Trump knows that he's the smartest man in the room. And, as the smartest man alive, he knows that blacks are criminals and lazy welfare cheats. He knows that Latinos just want to sneak into America to illegally grab good jobs from hard working Americans. Trump will NEVER change his prejudices and Fox News will only reinforce his beliefs with their slanted reporting. Trump is proud to stand up for the hard working white Americans who elected him.


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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#22

Post by maydijo » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:50 pm

Of course it's not going to happen, just like I'm not going to win the lottery. I harbour no illusions about it happening, much like I harbour no illusions about winning the lottery (which is why I never buy a ticket.) In fact, the odds of Trump acting like a decent human being are about the same as me winning the lottery without buying a ticket.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#23

Post by Suranis » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:33 pm

Or, in short, Maher isn't the fucing President* at an official meeting.


Irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#24

Post by vic » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:40 pm

Suranis wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:33 pm
Or, in short, Maher isn't the fucing President* at an official meeting.
:yeah:

And Forti, stooping to whataboutism is pretty low. At least the RWNJs generally use someone in a similar area (e.g. another politician at the national level). Maher is a commentator known for provocative statements.



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Re: Resolution to Censure President Trump: Re "Shithole"

#25

Post by Flatpointhigh » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:55 pm

Kendra wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:33 pm
Might as well dump there here as another thread.

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