Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#201

Post by maydijo »

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:58 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm
You do realise the irony in telling me that I shouldn't talk about this while telling me that the problem with Germans in the war was that too many of them stayed silent . . . .
I told you to do nothing. My words were, if I recall, "You should be encouraged to post whatever you feel."

I'll stand by that.

I only point out that actions have consequences.
Yep, and me talking about the wrongness of cultural appropriation will be the final push Trump needs to get over the edge in the midterms!

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#202

Post by maydijo »

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:58 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm
You do realise the irony in telling me that I shouldn't talk about this while telling me that the problem with Germans in the war was that too many of them stayed silent . . . .
Yep, I am sure the Democrats are going to start crapping on the Constitution and putting children in cages any minute if we don't take every opportunity to criticize them.

PS: As I have said before my criticism of the Cherokee Nation is that they went out of their way to criticize Warren while giving Trump and the Republicans a pass on their blatant racism in the same statement.
Yep, and me criticising the past actions of a single Democratic senator will lead to the genocide of entire groups of people.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#203

Post by Mikedunford »

I'm taking a break for a few days - at least.
"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#204

Post by Dan1100 »

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:44 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Warren never claimed to be a member of any tribe or nation. She never gained any competitive advantage to gain a position. I will tell you what I think the Cherokee's can do with their statement but that's my own opinion.
That's factually inaccurate. In the past she referred to herself as Cherokee in a cookbook; she has also referred to herself as Cherokee or Delaware at various times. She has never gained an advantage by doing so but again,that's irrelevant. For me the issue is: Who gets to determine membership in a community?

You have your opinion on what the Cherokees can do with their statement and that is an opinion I'd like to hear. I actually quite like it when people point out flaws in my thinking. I just get annoyed when people tell me I shouldn't speak because it might make the other side happy. Screw them. I'm not going to live my life that way.
Your fundamental error is that you think the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma equals the Cherokee Community in Eastern Oklahoma.

The truth on the ground in Eastern Oklahoma is that it doesn't. Remember, there is no reservation like western tribes. First, there are two recognized Cherokee tribes in Oklahoma, the CNO and the United Keetooway. Roughly, the CNO are the "modern" Ross Cherokee that were forced out of the Southeast on the Trail of Tears and the United Keetooway are the "traditional" "Old Settlers" who left the Southeast before the Trail of Tears settling in Arkansas and then Oklahoma before the forced removal. Pre-civil war, you can read "modern" as had slaves and "traditionalist" as not having slaves. Then, you have the Cherokee families that wouldn't participate in the allotment and wouldn't sign the Dawes Rolls.

The truth on the ground in Eastern Oklahoma, is that all these people are all related, they all go to the same churches, and they all know each others families, and they all know who is Cherokee and who isn't by who is whose cousin without any reference to the CNO or whose Great Grandpa signed the Dawes Rolls. The "Cherokee Community" is all of them, they don't care about the CNO except financially, and most of them think of the CNO the same way that most of us think of our subdivision Property Owners Association (a useful but annoying group run by busy bodies).

If you had to decide on one group that would embody "Cherokee Community" it would be the churches, not the CNO.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#205

Post by maydijo »

Dan1100 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:02 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:44 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Warren never claimed to be a member of any tribe or nation. She never gained any competitive advantage to gain a position. I will tell you what I think the Cherokee's can do with their statement but that's my own opinion.
That's factually inaccurate. In the past she referred to herself as Cherokee in a cookbook; she has also referred to herself as Cherokee or Delaware at various times. She has never gained an advantage by doing so but again,that's irrelevant. For me the issue is: Who gets to determine membership in a community?

You have your opinion on what the Cherokees can do with their statement and that is an opinion I'd like to hear. I actually quite like it when people point out flaws in my thinking. I just get annoyed when people tell me I shouldn't speak because it might make the other side happy. Screw them. I'm not going to live my life that way.
Your fundamental error is that you think the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma equals the Cherokee Community in Eastern Oklahoma.

The truth on the ground in Eastern Oklahoma is that it doesn't. Remember, there is no reservation like western tribes. First, there are two recognized Cherokee tribes in Oklahoma, the CNO and the United Keetooway. Roughly, the CNO are the "modern" Ross Cherokee that were forced out of the Southeast on the Trail of Tears and the United Keetooway are the "traditional" "Old Settlers" who left the Southeast before the Trail of Tears settling in Arkansas and then Oklahoma before the forced removal. Pre-civil war, you can read "modern" as had slaves and "traditionalist" as not having slaves. Then, you have the Cherokee families that wouldn't participate in the allotment and wouldn't sign the Dawes Rolls.

The truth on the ground in Eastern Oklahoma, is that all these people are all related, they all go to the same churches, and they all know each others families, and they all know who is Cherokee and who isn't by who is whose cousin without any reference to the CNO or whose Great Grandpa signed the Dawes Rolls. The "Cherokee Community" is all of them, they don't care about the CNO except financially, and most of them think of the CNO the same way that most of us think of our subdivision Property Owners Association (a useful but annoying group run by busy bodies).

If you had to decide on one group that would embody "Cherokee Community" it would be the churches, not the CNO.
But no Cherokee nation or part of the Cherokee communitiy recognises Senator Warren's claim to call herslef Cherokee. The DNA test cannot prove if she is Cherokee or Delaware, only that she has Native American blood. And again, Warren herself acknowledged the right of the First Nations to determine membership for themselves; my squabble is more with her historical actions than with her actions now, and is part of a broader and on-going and incredibly complicated argument pertaining to indigenous rights, community, and identity.

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#206

Post by Reality Check »

Your fundamental error is that you think the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma equals the Cherokee Community in Eastern Oklahoma.

The truth on the ground in Eastern Oklahoma is that it doesn't. Remember, there is no reservation like western tribes. First, there are two recognized Cherokee tribes in Oklahoma, the CNO and the United Keetooway. Roughly, the CNO are the "modern" Ross Cherokee that were forced out of the Southeast on the Trail of Tears and the United Keetooway are the "traditional" "Old Settlers" who left the Southeast before the Trail of Tears settling in Arkansas and then Oklahoma before the forced removal. Pre-civil war, you can read "modern" as had slaves and "traditionalist" as not having slaves. Then, you have the Cherokee families that wouldn't participate in the allotment and wouldn't sign the Dawes Rolls.

The truth on the ground in Eastern Oklahoma, is that all these people are all related, they all go to the same churches, and they all know each others families, and they all know who is Cherokee and who isn't by who is whose cousin without any reference to the CNO or whose Great Grandpa signed the Dawes Rolls. The "Cherokee Community" is all of them, they don't care about the CNO except financially, and most of them think of the CNO the same way that most of us think of our subdivision Property Owners Association (a useful but annoying group run by busy bodies).

If you had to decide on one group that would embody "Cherokee Community" it would be the churches, not the CNO.
Thanks Dan. That is quite helpful. :clap:
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Heather Heyer, November 2016

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#207

Post by John Thomas8 »

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:00 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:58 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm
You do realise the irony in telling me that I shouldn't talk about this while telling me that the problem with Germans in the war was that too many of them stayed silent . . . .
Yep, I am sure the Democrats are going to start crapping on the Constitution and putting children in cages any minute if we don't take every opportunity to criticize them.

PS: As I have said before my criticism of the Cherokee Nation is that they went out of their way to criticize Warren while giving Trump and the Republicans a pass on their blatant racism in the same statement.
Yep, and me criticising the past actions of a single Democratic senator will lead to the genocide of entire groups of people.
It adds up, and you know it. Especially since her past "actions" are intensely not relevant to tribal autonomy.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#208

Post by maydijo »

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:22 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:00 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:58 pm


Yep, I am sure the Democrats are going to start crapping on the Constitution and putting children in cages any minute if we don't take every opportunity to criticize them.

PS: As I have said before my criticism of the Cherokee Nation is that they went out of their way to criticize Warren while giving Trump and the Republicans a pass on their blatant racism in the same statement.
Yep, and me criticising the past actions of a single Democratic senator will lead to the genocide of entire groups of people.
It adds up, and you know it. Especially since her past "actions" are intensely not relevant to tribal autonomy.
Oh, and here I thought a bit of counter-hyperbole might bring you to your senses. Nope. You've heard it here first folk, the next Holocaust is on my head!

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

#209

Post by John Thomas8 »

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:06 pm
But no Cherokee nation or part of the Cherokee communitiy recognises Senator Warren's claim to call herslef Cherokee. The DNA test cannot prove if she is Cherokee or Delaware, only that she has Native American blood. And again, Warren herself acknowledged the right of the First Nations to determine membership for themselves; my squabble is more with her historical actions than with her actions now, and is part of a broader and on-going and incredibly complicated argument pertaining to indigenous rights, community, and identity.
The Eastern Band would like a word with you (Ashley Collman, Business Insider):

The Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians issued a statement largely supporting Sen. Elizabeth Warren's recent DNA test to confirm her Native American ancestry — breaking with another tribe that called the move "inappropriate and wrong."

Eastern Band Principal Chief Richard Sneed said in a statement to Business Insider on Tuesday that while they "strongly condemn" people who try to pass off distant Native ancestry as their race, they don't believe that Warren has appropriated their culture.


Maybe they're "Uncle Tom injuns", maybe they have a different opinion.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#210

Post by maydijo »

And that's their right, and as I've said all along, this is a discussion that needs to be had.

But I'm still pissed off about you blaming me for the next Holocaust, so excuse me if I choose to believe you're not genuinely interested in having that conversation.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#211

Post by John Thomas8 »

I'm blaming every single person that is distracting from the purpose of stopping trump and the republicans. I'll stand by that, too.

This isn't about cultural mis-appropriation any longer and the sooner you figure that out the less offense you'll take when people call you out for derailing the attempt to get hate out of congress.

Not one single thing Senator Warren has done is cultural mis-appropriation or hateful towards any Native American tribe.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#212

Post by maydijo »

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:35 pm
I'm blaming every single person that is distracting from the purpose of stopping trump and the republicans. I'll stand by that, too.
Yep. That, right there, is why I think talking with you about this is a giant waste of my time. I've got better things to do.
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:35 pm
This isn't about cultural mis-appropriation any longer and the sooner you figure that out the less offense you'll take when people call you out for derailing the attempt to get hate out of congress.
I disagree. One group of Cherokee saying she hasn't done anything wrong does not negate the other voices that say she has, or she may have. And I take strong offense to the idea that I'm derailing the attempt to get hate out of congress. That is a ludicrous thing to say.

Not one single thing Senator Warren has done is cultural mis-appropriation or hateful towards any Native American tribe.
[/quote]

In your opinion. Again, one group of Cherokee saying she hasn't done anything wrong does not negate the other voices that say she has.

At any rate you are far too irrational and angry for me to continue to have this discussion with you.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#213

Post by Dan1100 »

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:35 pm
I'm blaming every single person that is distracting from the purpose of stopping trump and the republicans. I'll stand by that, too.
Yep. That, right there, is why I think talking with you about this is a giant waste of my time. I've got better things to do.
John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:35 pm
This isn't about cultural mis-appropriation any longer and the sooner you figure that out the less offense you'll take when people call you out for derailing the attempt to get hate out of congress.
I disagree. One group of Cherokee saying she hasn't done anything wrong does not negate the other voices that say she has, or she may have. And I take strong offense to the idea that I'm derailing the attempt to get hate out of congress. That is a ludicrous thing to say.

Not one single thing Senator Warren has done is cultural mis-appropriation or hateful towards any Native American tribe.
In your opinion. Again, one group of Cherokee saying she hasn't done anything wrong does not negate the other voices that say she has.

At any rate you are far too irrational and angry for me to continue to have this discussion with you.
[/quote]
No, what negates it is the CNO leadership's past behavior toward the Freedmen and other actions that show they are fundamentally motivated by greed.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#214

Post by Reality Check »

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm
:snippity:
At any rate you are far too irrational and angry for me to continue to have this discussion with you.
I know you directed that at JohnThomas8 but this might be a good time to quote my signature:

"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

Heather Heyer, November 2016
I applaud the Eastern Band of the Cherokee Indians for issuing a statement that struck the right tone.
"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

Heather Heyer, November 2016

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#215

Post by maydijo »

Dan1100 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:51 pm
No, what negates it is the CNO leadership's past behavior toward the Freedmen and other actions that show they are fundamentally motivated by greed.
The CNO aren't the only ones speaking out against this. Other Native American voices are too. I am defending the right of those voices to be heard; I am defending the right of the conversation and debate to take place; and frankly I find it offensive when I am told that, in so doing, I am encouraging hatred.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#216

Post by John Thomas8 »

I'm not angry, not at anyone here. That would be irrational.

Here, I'm mad that the NFL games aren't going the way I think they will. Sad my music posts don't generate any traffic.

What I am angry about, as someone who's been shot at on 3 continents for this country, is the abject stupidity in use to counter the morally bankrupt assholes running the country into the ground.

It's SO intelligent to feed the "Pocahontas" babbling by the great orange fucknut. Just awesome.

Have at it. Take her down, run the single senator that stood up for banking customers out of the senate. Just remember that actions have consequences.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#217

Post by maydijo »

John Thomas8 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:58 pm
I'm not angry, not at anyone here. That would be irrational.

Here, I'm mad that the NFL games aren't going the way I think they will. Sad my music posts don't generate any traffic.

What I am angry about, as someone who's been shot at on 3 continents for this country, is the abject stupidity in use to counter the morally bankrupt assholes running the country into the ground.

It's SO intelligent to feed the "Pocahontas" babbling by the great orange fucknut. Just awesome.

Have at it. Take her down, run the single senator that stood up for banking customers out of the senate. Just remember that actions have consequences.
And there you go again with your anger. I am not taking anyone down. I am expressing my discomfort with her past actions. The rest is your projection, pure and simple.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#218

Post by maydijo »

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:39 pm
:snippity:
At any rate you are far too irrational and angry for me to continue to have this discussion with you.


I know you directed that at JohnThomas8 but this might be a good time to quote my signature:

"“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”

Heather Heyer, November 2016

Save your outrage for the appropriate sources. I don't deserve it; I have not said a single thing to justify the amount of vitriol aimed towards me in this post.

Edited to correct the quotes. Also to add: I have repeatedly said "to the extent that she has" misappropriated culture or misrepresented herself - If you don't think she has, then "the extent" is exactly 0. So what is there to get angry about? We are essentially arguing over a difference in opinion. I think she has; you think she hasn't. Neither one of us is going to change the other person's mind, and everyone has made it quite clear that they don't wish to debate the broader issues of culture and identity, so why, exactly, are we wasting our time here?

Edited to apologise for the quote thing. I thought I'd fixed it. I haven't. I give up; it's really not worth my time.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#219

Post by Dan1100 »

maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:57 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:51 pm
No, what negates it is the CNO leadership's past behavior toward the Freedmen and other actions that show they are fundamentally motivated by greed.
The CNO aren't the only ones speaking out against this. Other Native American voices are too. I am defending the right of those voices to be heard; I am defending the right of the conversation and debate to take place; and frankly I find it offensive when I am told that, in so doing, I am encouraging hatred.
I am not saying that you are encouraging hatred.

I am saying you are wrong because you don't have a passing understanding about the people involved to understand why they are doing what they are doing.

Certainly the CNO has the right to unsuccessfully try to throw the black people out of the tribe, to sue other tribes to close their competing casinos (in the 10th Circuit now), and to use Warren as a tool to fight DNA testing in order to head off people using it to join the tribe and getting a piece of their financial pie, but they are doing all those things out of greed, not as a voice for their community or some greater goal of preserving their culture.

edit: They are a business and a ruthlessly successful one. I'm not judging them for that, but that's what they are and why they do what they do.

edit again: Not to be too harsh on the CNO, they provide thousands of jobs. The send hundreds of their members kids to college. They organize a lot of aid from the federal government for their members. They run hotels and casinos without laundering money for the Russian mob or filing bankruptcy. :shock: They do a lot of good, despite all the stuff I wrote above.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#220

Post by maydijo »

Dan1100 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:10 pm
maydijo wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:57 pm
Dan1100 wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:51 pm
No, what negates it is the CNO leadership's past behavior toward the Freedmen and other actions that show they are fundamentally motivated by greed.
The CNO aren't the only ones speaking out against this. Other Native American voices are too. I am defending the right of those voices to be heard; I am defending the right of the conversation and debate to take place; and frankly I find it offensive when I am told that, in so doing, I am encouraging hatred.
I am not saying that you are encouraging hatred.

I am saying you are wrong because you don't have a passing understanding about the people involved to understand why they are doing what they are doing.

Certainly the CNO has the right to unsuccessfully try to throw the black people out of the tribe, to sue other tribes to close their competing casinos (in the 10th Circuit now), and to use Warren as a tool to fight DNA testing in order to head off people using it to join the tribe and getting a piece of their financial pie, but they are doing all those things out of greed, not as a voice for their community or some greater goal of preserving their culture.
No, I know you're not saying I'm encouraging hatred, I'm sorry for the way that came across. I appreciate your broader points. But I don't think I'm saying exactly what you think I'm saying. It's more nuanced than that. I am taking issue with Warren - or anyone else - claiming to be a specific First Nation, based on family legend or DNA evidence, when DNA evidence cannot determine a specific claim to any one or more specific First Nation peoples. I am not arguing that she used this to advance her career; I am merely stating that to the extent she claimed to be Cherokee or Delaware, based on nothing more than family legend, even if that was as tenuous and as unimportant as a cookbook, that was a mistake. This is something she has done historically; it is not something she is doing at present. In the interest of absolute transparency I will state that my older sister was adopted into a clan and into the Pueblo at birth, and I would have the same discomfort with her saying she is Pueblo now, when she has had nothing to do with the Pueblo for 48 years, although there is probably some record somewhere saying she is Pueblo. The First Nations should have the right to determine membership. In keeping with that principal, if they want to recognise my sister and possibly her children as Pueblo, that is their business and I respect that; but I would assume - and I could be wrong here - that most Pueblo would not accept her as one of their own when she has had nothing to do with the culture within her living memory. Likewise, to the best of my knowledge, which could be flawed, Senator Warren has had little or nothing to do with the cultures she has, in the past, claimed for herself. This is not easy or straight-forward for any First Nation group. But if we are going to respect their sovereign rights - and we cannot respect their nation-state without respecting their sovereign rights (and recognising that sovereignty varies widely from full statehood to tribal recognition, and recognising that traditional records are flawed and often inaccurate or only partially accurate, and recognising that the entire thing is largely a mess of white man's making) - at some point we have to draw a line in the sand and say, From this point forward, this is what we're going on. And if that line is wrong, it is up to the First Nations themselves, and not up to us white folk, to redraw them.

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#221

Post by maydijo »

And yes, I agree, 100%, that it is problematic. It is far from ideal. If we are to draw a line in the sand, we are giving power to groups like the CNO, who may not have what we would call the "right" interests at heart, and letting determine someone's "Indianness" based on their own criteria, which may not be, from our perspective or understanding, "correct." (The quotes aren't to cast dispersion on your opinion or anyone else's but to narrate the cultural assumptions that are inherent in those words.) Absolutely it's problematic. Absolutely mistakes will be made. But let's face it, is the CNO going to muck it up any more than 400 years of white oppression has?

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#222

Post by John Thomas8 »

Isn't this an actual problem, rather than the made up one about Senator Warren:

[img=

Which one does more damage?

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#223

Post by RoadScholar »

The right-wingers claimed Warren claimed to be Cherokee. She claimed a small amount of Cherokee in her genes, and she was right. Never to be an actual tribal member or citizen. But the Rabid Right is so adept at foisting a false narrative that the Tribe responded not so much to her as to the fiction and testily argued that a bit of DNA doesn’t make one a member of the tribe, which Warren never claimed to be anyway.

The over-sensitive on the Left, out of respect for the self-determination of ethnic identities, expressed disdain for Warren, adding to the ammunition of the Right. This was amply demonstrated by the headlines in the MSM today along the lines of “Warren catches flack from both left and right over DNA test,” and off to the races.

Don’t get me wrong, I totally agree that Warren shouldn’t have done what she never did.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#224

Post by Reality Check »

RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:42 pm
:snippity:
Don’t get me wrong, I totally agree that Warren shouldn’t have done what she never did.
:fivestars:
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Re: Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

#225

Post by John Thomas8 »

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:45 pm
RoadScholar wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:42 pm
:snippity:
Don’t get me wrong, I totally agree that Warren shouldn’t have done what she never did.
:fivestars:
Ya, I got five more stars for that.

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