Senator Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

Post by Whatever4 »

:yeah:

I’ve mentioned it before, but my bad sister is convinced we have Native American ancestors. No, we have NA relatives. And black relatives. When your white male ancestors force children on their slaves or mistresses/concubines/women, you only share the white DNA. Relatives, not ancestors.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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pipistrelle wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:56 pm Let me see if I have this right.
  • Like many, Warren was told by family she has a Native ancestor.
  • She has mentioned this publicly, perhaps foolishly, because she believes it or wants to believe it.
  • She hasn't benefited from this purported ancestry, or only minimally.
  • She isn't running around trying to register with a federally recognized tribe.
  • We're arguing the finer points of this while the 45th President tells more lies in 5 minutes than I've told in my lifetime.
  • We're arguing the finer points of this while a known liar with the temperament of an angry 15-year-old sits on the Supreme Court.
  • We're arguing the finer points of this while more and more Nazis turn up in our towns and cities to incite violence but aren't treated like gangs.
Got it.
I think it matters. It doesn't matter as much as the final three points on your list; but it matters how we represent ourselves, especially if our motives are less than clear. I don't know if Senator Warren's are or not; and I quite like her, and her representation as part Native American doesn't change that. But, as the daughter of avid family historians, for me it speaks to something deeper. Representing yourself as a vulnerable minority, while enjoying all the privileges bestowed by whiteness, is hollow. She does not understand the Native American experience - the bone-deep sorrow of that genocide, the ever-present racism, the cultural appropriation. Indeed I would argue that she is to a lesser extent practicing cultural appropriation by identifying herself as part Native American. She seems to want to claim oneness, a solidarity and a unity, without actually ever having experienced what it means, culturally or politically or ancestrally, to be Native American. I am not Native American; but my parents used to live and work on a reservation; and I can see how their friends there would be insulted that this very successful white woman is claiming a kinship with them.

People become very attached to their family histories. My dad once wrote an essay for a genealogy magazine in which he recounted his discovery that he was descended from a very elite, old-money New England family. His distant relatives were so outraged they demanded he take a DNA test to prove it. He did, and he was right. He was not claiming any part of any inheritance; he was not claiming to be recognised as one of them; he was simply telling a story about the interesting way in which several threads came together to lead him to this conclusion. (My dad is inevitably related to all the old-money families, but always through the disgraced youngest son who ran away with the scullery maid. Seriously, if even one of my ancestors could've kept it in their pants . . . .) For those people, being a part of that family meant something very specific, whereas for my dad, it meant very little because his ties with that family were distant, both in terms of genealogy and in terms of cultural experience and expectation. My dad never used this family connection to promote himself or his career; it would be rather gauche to do so. To the extent that Senator Warren is using her Native American ancestry to promote herself, I also find that gauche. Here, however, I think the controversy is more in Donald Trump's mind than in any sort of reality.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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My impression is she didn't make as big a deal of it as everyone else is. And now Individual-1 has created a false narrative that distracts from the false narrative of his entire false existence by focusing on a little personal foible Warren shares with many Americans who've been told the same thing (I know some, and I know some who really wanted to believe it).

There's not enough there there to debate. When she tries to register with a tribal organization, or claims she knows what it's like to walk the Trail of Tears, etc., I'll be back. Somehow I don't think that's going to happen.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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I say we start demanding Trump donate the million to Planned Parenthood.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Slim Cognito wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:48 pm
Dolly wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:18 pm
Trump: I’ll donate $1M for Warren if I can test her ‘personally’

President Trump said Monday he would only donate $1 million on behalf of Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) if he tests her claims of Native American ancestry “personally.”

“I’ll only do it if I can test her personally," Trump told reporters in Georgia.

He said testing Warren would "not be something I will enjoy.”
https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... personally
Seems legit.

Exactly what does he think "personally" would entail?
Its a vaguely worded rape threat.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:29 pm I think it matters.
The only reason it matters is because some dumbfuck has been masturbating out the word "Pocahontas" for 3 fucking years now. She never made a big deal out of it, but now to everyone she is in the wrong because she didn't back off in the face of his childish insults. Maybe if she said she was wrong and kissed his fat ass like everyone else, like a nice compliant woman, everyone would now be on her side.

Why people are so willing to attack the targets of Trumps stupid propaganda is beyond me. Stop being lead by your nose, people. She finally had enough and she crammed Pocahontas back down his grease lined fucking throat, and somehow she is in the wrong. Get fucked.

Feminists my ass.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Gregg wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:41 pm I say we start demanding Trump donate the million to Planned Parenthood.
Half to Planned Parenthood, half to the NAACP.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Suranis wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:44 pm
Its a vaguely worded rape threat.
Can we get back on topic that Senator Warren outrageously said she might have part Native American ancestry please? I mean who give a fuck that Trump is a lying piece of shit? :bored:
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Suranis wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:53 pm
maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:29 pm I think it matters.
The only reason it matters is because some dumbfuck has been masturbating out the word "Pocahontas" for 3 fucking years now. She never made a big deal out of it, but now to everyone she is in the wrong because she didn't back off in the face of his childish insults. Maybe if she said she was wrong and kissed his fat ass like everyone else, like a nice compliant woman, everyone would now be on her side.

Why people are so willing to attack the targets of Trumps stupid propaganda is beyond me. Stop being lead by your nose, people. She finally had enough and she crammed Pocahontas back down his grease lined fucking throat, and somehow she is in the wrong. Get fucked.

Feminists my ass.
She did use it to claim status as a minority professor. That, in my opinion, was wrong. As for the rest of your rant - well, I am used to far worse from you by now.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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It should go rifght where Waren says it should go, to Indigenous Womans causes. There is no reason to Drag PP into this, giving away money will be the greatest pain no matter where he goes, and he really does not give a fuck about PP. Native Americans though, that would sting, and she knows it.

Its not loke he actually has the money anyway
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Representing yourself as a vulnerable minority, while enjoying all the privileges bestowed by whiteness, is hollow. She does not understand the Native American experience - the bone-deep sorrow of that genocide, the ever-present racism, the cultural appropriation. Indeed I would argue that she is to a lesser extent practicing cultural appropriation by identifying herself as part Native American. She seems to want to claim oneness, a solidarity and a unity, without actually ever having experienced what it means, culturally or politically or ancestrally, to be Native American. I am not Native American; but my parents used to live and work on a reservation; and I can see how their friends there would be insulted that this very successful white woman is claiming a kinship with them. :snippity:
Well first there is little or no evidence to back up your claims that Senator Warren doesn't understand the Native American experience. She is part Native American. Is being proud of that a crime? Second, You seem to be claiming you have a special empathy with Native Americans and speak for them when Warren cannot because your parents worked on a reservation. How about that we agree that neither experience qualifies or disqualifies the both of you?
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:55 pm
She did use it to claim status as a minority professor. That, in my opinion, was wrong. As for the rest of your rant - well, I am used to far worse from you by now.
She absolutely did not. That is an out and out fucking lie, and you should be ashamed of falling for it. Here, have links

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... ive-ameri/

https://www.masslive.com/politics/index ... aim_m.html

https://www.apnews.com/4d83eff785f146c6a20754a61f5fa503

And ya, I'm here defending a woman and somehow that means I'm part of the Patriarchy or something. :brickwallsmall: My point was so called Feminists are attacking her for no good reason. Ya I shouldn't have said feminists, but I was fucking angry at the shit being thrown and the double standards. When a woman is completely in the right people are right back to attacking her, not the guy who just threatened to rape her.

:talktothehand:
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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I find it amusing that Obama's claim of being born in Hawaii is really similar to Elizabeth Warren's claim of having an American Indian ancestor. In both cases neither politician had first hand knowledge. That's impossible. Like all children, they believe what they've been told. Obama was told he was born in Hawaii. It wasn't until he requested his birth certificate that he had official documentation of the fact. With Warren, she was told that she had an American Indian ancestor. Until recently, proving that was pretty much impossible. Now with DNA tests, they can come close. Obama had a birth certificate and people still refused to believe it. Is it any wonder that folks discount Warren's claim and proof?
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Reality Check wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:58 pm
Representing yourself as a vulnerable minority, while enjoying all the privileges bestowed by whiteness, is hollow. She does not understand the Native American experience - the bone-deep sorrow of that genocide, the ever-present racism, the cultural appropriation. Indeed I would argue that she is to a lesser extent practicing cultural appropriation by identifying herself as part Native American. She seems to want to claim oneness, a solidarity and a unity, without actually ever having experienced what it means, culturally or politically or ancestrally, to be Native American. I am not Native American; but my parents used to live and work on a reservation; and I can see how their friends there would be insulted that this very successful white woman is claiming a kinship with them. :snippity:
Well first there is little or no evidence to back up your claims that Senator Warren doesn't understand the Native American experience. She is part Native American. Is being proud of that a crime? Second, You seem to be claiming you have a special empathy with Native Americans and speak for them when Warren cannot because your parents worked on a reservation. How about that we agree that neither experience qualifies or disqualifies the both of you?
I'm fine with that. I never claimed otherwise; I merely expressed sympathy with the view of some Native Americans (such as the Cherokee nation, as quoted earlier in the thread) that she is not, in their opinion, Native American. My broader point is merely that it is wrong to represent yourself as a minority when you are not. And as I said, *to the extent* that she has done that, it is, in my opinion, wrong.

ETA - The community should be allowed to make the final determination as to association. The Cherokee Nation has stated that she is not Cherokee. That is enough for me. It doesn't meant she doesn't have a genetic link to the Cherokee or to the Delaware - again, the DNA test cannot determine which tribe she is related to - but for me, I do not believe she should self-identify as Cherokee or Delaware if the tribe doesn't want her to. This is not about me dissing Senator Warren; I think she is an amazing woman who would make an incredible president. This is about me extending to the Nations themselves the right to determine who is and isn't a part of their Nation. And while I was very clear in saying that this is a controversy largely of Trump's making, I don't think she should represent herself, or allow herself to be represented as, Native American. She is, of course, well within her rights to refer to herself as an individual with Native American ancestry; but that is something very different.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:03 pm And as I said, *to the extent* that she has done that, it is, in my opinion, wrong.
Look, after being SHOWN she hasn't done that, you still cling to the tatters of "well, she has to have done *SOMETHING* because fucking liars said she did. And. you know, women."

Hi. I believe that I have Vikings in my ancestry. That does not mean I'm claiming to be fucking Norwegian.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Suranis wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:08 pm
maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:03 pm And as I said, *to the extent* that she has done that, it is, in my opinion, wrong.
Look, after being SHOWN she hasn't done that, you still cling to the tatters of "well, she has to have done *SOMETHING* because fucking liars said she did. And. you know, women."

Hi. I believe that I have Vikings in my ancestry. That does not mean I'm claiming to be fucking Norwegian.
Suranis, a little bit of politeness would not go astray.

Even the articles you linked to said she told her faculty she was Native American and that she referred to herself as Cherokee and/or Delaware on more than one occasion.

BTW, you're still on my blocked list, so don't be surprised that I don't jump up and reply to every post. Particularly not those posts where you tell me repeatedly and often to fuck off.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:03 pm I'm fine with that. I never claimed otherwise; I merely expressed sympathy with the view of some Native Americans (such as the Cherokee nation, as quoted earlier in the thread) that she is not, in their opinion, Native American. My broader point is merely that it is wrong to represent yourself as a minority when you are not. And as I said, *to the extent* that she has done that, it is, in my opinion, wrong.
Good, I somewhat understand where the Cherokee nation is coming from also but they should have included a condemnation of the Republicans and Trump who have been blatant racists in this matter. Have they issued such a condemnation? If not it makes their condemnation of Warren ring hollow to me.

Suaranis is right. Warren got fed up with the racist asshole Trump and the Pocahontas bullshit. She did the DNA test to shove it up his ass. If you have a problem with that I would love to hear why. If you want to now in light of all of what has happened single out Warren for taking a small advantage of her heritage many years ago then I have a right to question your motives.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Reality Check wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:17 pm
maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:03 pm I'm fine with that. I never claimed otherwise; I merely expressed sympathy with the view of some Native Americans (such as the Cherokee nation, as quoted earlier in the thread) that she is not, in their opinion, Native American. My broader point is merely that it is wrong to represent yourself as a minority when you are not. And as I said, *to the extent* that she has done that, it is, in my opinion, wrong.
Good, I somewhat understand where the Cherokee nation is coming from also but they should have included a condemnation of the Republicans and Trump who have been blatant racists in this matter. Have they issued such a condemnation? If not it makes their condemnation of Warren ring hollow to me.

Suaranis is right. Warren got fed up with the racist asshole Trump and the Pocahontas bullshit. She did the DNA test to shove it up his ass. IF you have a problem with that I would love to hear why. If you want to now in light of all of what has happened single out Warren for taking a small advantage of her heritage many years ago then I have a right to question your motives.
No, I don't have a problem with her taking a DNA test to shove it up his ass. I'm a proponent of shoving everything and anything up Donald Trump's ass, starting with ginormously large palm trees. Nor am I singling out Warren; I believe it is wrong for anyone to benefit from privilege and then claim to share status with vulnerable populations. Warren has not done this in any quantifiable way, although she has identified herself as Native American, which is why I keep qualifying my statement with "to the extent," which certain people, especially certain people with Irish and possibly Norwegian ancestry, seem to purposefully miss. It may seem a small point, but I would feel more comfortable if she referred to herself as a person with Native American ancestry, rather than a Cherokee or a Delaware. It would be more honest and I believe more respectful to the First Nations themselves. My opinion as to that last point is largely moot, as you are right to point out, as I am not Native American either. However, as I have also repeatedly said, I admire and like Senator Warren, and you can bet that if she has the nomination in 2020, I'll be voting for her. However, given my obvious distaste for Donald Trump, and in the spirit of openness, I should also say that I hate my neighbour's dog, but if he somehow managed to get the nomination in 2020, I'd also vote for him. However, again, in the spirit of openness, Senator Warren would actually make a good president, unlike my neighbour's dog.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Without knowing your neighbors dog's temperament or intelligence at all I would take him over Trump. :-D
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Have I been insulting to you? No. Saying you are wrong is not a personal insult.

Warren never once claimed to ba a part of the Cherokee nation, so yeah I'm sure their statement is perfectly fine with her as well.
maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:14 pm Even the articles you linked to said she told her faculty she was Native American and that she referred to herself as Cherokee and/or Delaware on more than one occasion.
And ya, lets see how my links show how she claimed to be Cherokee. Some Quotes would help your cause you know. But that's typical of trolls and people who have set their anchor on unstable ground. The make a statement and make the other side do all the work, so the guy/gal with the actual facts gets tires and gives up.
Before this controversy arose in 2012, there is no account that Warren spoke publicly of having Native American roots, although she called herself Cherokee in a local Oklahoma cookbook in 1984.
OMG not a cookbook!!!!! IMPEACH!!

The Second link?
The report by the university's Minority Equity Committee includes a list of faculty members who worked at the school. Warren worked there as a law professor until 1995, when she left to take a job at Harvard Law School.

The report by the university's Minority Equity Committee includes a list of faculty members who worked at the school. Warren worked there as a law professor until 1995, when she left to take a job at Harvard Law School.

The report listed the names of minorities in bold and italics, and Warren's was included among those names. It indicated that Warren had won a teacher award at the school, and that only eight of the 112 awards give out during a 13-year span had gone to minority teachers.
Ok. BUT!!
On the Rutgers application, Warren wrote "No" in response to the question: "Are you interested in applying for admission under the Program for Minority Group Students?"

Warren graduated from Rutgers in 1976.

On a personnel file from the University of Texas, Warren checked the box "White" when asked to select "the racial category or categories with which you most closely identify."

The categories included a box for "American Indian or Alaska Native," which Warren did not check.
The Third link?
“She was not on the radar screen at all in terms of a racial minority hire,” Randall Kennedy, a law professor who was in charge of recruiting minority candidates to Harvard Law School, told the Globe. “It was just not an issue. I can’t remember anybody ever mentioning her in this context.”

The Globe reports that it examined hundreds of documents, many of them never before available, and talked to 31 law school professors from that period at Harvard. All but one said her Native American heritage was not discussed as part of the decision to hire her. One said he was unsure if the issue came up, but if it did, it had no bearing on his vote.
Well gee, that proves... hang on, proves she did not claim any minority status at Harvard at all.

So, basically, you have a small point point on the second link, but no to the first and third. and your statement that "She did use it to claim status as a minority professor." is still an out and out lie, and she did not claim any status at all for the majority of her career. Its entirely possible that the Uni actually listed her as a minority to make up the numbers without her knowledge. The fact that she did not claim that status in Jobs before or after that job bears that supposition out.

But, truly, I have no idea why she is listed as a minority in that college and not before or since.

So, your claim that "the articles I linked to" all prove she did so is wrong.

And, seriously, don't give me the "oh I have you blocked" horseshit. (a) when you say that all you are doing is giving meaningless satisfaction to a troll, and (b) all it takes is a click to read my stuff anyway. And, frankly, I don't care if you have me blocked or not.

And by the way, I do NOT tell you "frequently and often" to fuck off. That is, once again, an out and out lie. Frankly I don't have any animosity to you whatsoever and I certainly would not be singling you out. If you think I must be, then you have some issues. Possibly you are uncomfortable with me as a Catholic voice, and you are projecting what that "must mean" onto me. If so, frankly, that's not my problem. Its for you to deal with, and if you think I'm always singling you out and attacking YOU personally, I'm sorry, but that is a delusion. I'm not.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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maydijo wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:03 pm
:snippity:
ETA - The community should be allowed to make the final determination as to association. The Cherokee Nation has stated that she is not Cherokee. That is enough for me. It doesn't meant she doesn't have a genetic link to the Cherokee or to the Delaware - again, the DNA test cannot determine which tribe she is related to - but for me, I do not believe she should self-identify as Cherokee or Delaware if the tribe doesn't want her to. :snippity:
I don't purport to be an expert, but that ignores the complexity of what happened to the Cherokee in Oklahoma.

I'm not saying this applies to Warren, apparently it doesn't, but there are families in Oklahoma that are not in the Cherokee Nation because they refused to sign the Dawes rolls because they refused to participate in the Dawes Act allotment of their land. They consider the folks that signed the Dawes Rolls (and whose descendants make up the Cherokee Nation) to be sellouts and they have a point. edit: Certainly these families in Oklahoma are "Cherokee" despite the protests of the Cherokee Nation to the contrary.

The United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians who are for the most part the more traditional Cherokee who came west before the forced removal, seem to consider all of this "who is Cherokee" to be a tempest in a teapot and don't comment.

Just speculating, but the Freedmen, who are descendants of the black slaves who walked the Trail of Tears, recently got thrown out of the Cherokee Nation for being black are probably pretty disgusted by the whole thing. (And to be honest makes me question the truth and motivation of whatever the Cherokee Nation says.)
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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A number of Warren's relatives were interviewed several years ago about rather overinflated "issue". Many shared the same memories about the treatment of her mother's family because they were thought (rightly or wrongly) to be part Native American. The article also points out that people who could pass for whites did so because of the hateful discrimination that occurred, and still does. As pointed out above, many people chose not to be listed as a tribal member.

Warren was told by her mom that she and her husband had to elope because his family opposed the marriage. The elopement seems to be documented.
Herring, 21, and Reed, 19, were married in January 1932 by the minister of what was then the Methodist Episcopal South Church in Holdenville, Okla., according to their county marriage certificate. There is no recording of their marriage in the log book of the church, which is about 20 miles from their residence in Wetumka. The church’s historian, Karen Anderson, suspects the minister acted as a justice of the peace and married the couple in the parsonage.

Days later, the local newspaper, The Wetumka Gazette, ran a notice of their marriage, pointing out that the union of “two of Wetumka’s most popular young people came as a surprise to many of their friends when they returned from Holdenville late Saturday afternoon and announced their marriage.’’

Warren said in an interview that she heard of her mother’s Native American blood through a series of conversations the two of them had while Warren played with a favorite set of paper dolls. The dolls included a groom and a bride in a pink wedding dress. One day Warren, then about 7, asked her mother about her own wedding dress, and her mother said she had not had one. When Warren pressed for details, “she said no one came to her wedding at all. This is when I realized something was wrong. . . . That is when she explained.’’

https://www.boston.com/news/politics/20 ... n-heritage

She has every right to be proud of her family. And btw, a few months ago I posted information about the inaccuracies of dna tests for ethnicity, or at least of our ability to understand what we're looking at. When we have a mixed stew of ancestors, the test doesn't accurately tell our family tree. The info stated that if a half-Brit, half-Nigerian (for example) has a baby, the child might not have a 50-50 genetic inheritance. That's probably why Warren's test results have such a wide range of percentage. Even with a Cherokee ancestor, she might have had even less positive results, perhaps zero.

And while people argue back & forth about Elizabeth Warren, Trump says Jamil was murdered by "rogue killers" and children at being kept in pens. Let's keep our eyes on what he does, not what he says - about Warren, Pocahontas and anything else.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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Suranis, I don't dislike you because you're Catholic
I dislike you because you're an argumentative, arrogant arsehole. Also, angry. Very angry. Seriously, dude, that's not healthy.
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Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

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maydijo wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:06 am Suranis, I don't dislike you because you're Catholic
I dislike you because you're an argumentative, arrogant arsehole. Also, angry. Very angry. Seriously, dude, that's not healthy.
But..but...but.. it is always about everyone attacking his Catholicism and nothing about him personally attacking others.
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RVInit
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Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:31 pm

Re: Ms Warren Has Some Serious Class

Post by RVInit »

pipistrelle wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:56 pm Let me see if I have this right.
  • Like many, Warren was told by family she has a Native ancestor.
  • She has mentioned this publicly, perhaps foolishly, because she believes it or wants to believe it.
  • She hasn't benefited from this purported ancestry, or only minimally.
  • She isn't running around trying to register with a federally recognized tribe.
  • We're arguing the finer points of this while the 45th President tells more lies in 5 minutes than I've told in my lifetime.
  • We're arguing the finer points of this while a known liar with the temperament of an angry 15-year-old sits on the Supreme Court.
  • We're arguing the finer points of this while more and more Nazis turn up in our towns and cities to incite violence but aren't treated like gangs.
Got it.
:yeah:
"I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
--- George W Bush

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