Confederate Monuments

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Northland10
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Re: Confederate Monuments

#176

Post by Northland10 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:43 pm

After rereading some parts of Team of Rivals, I have noticed a tendency to put our modern way of thinking into people of that time. Certainly, Lee picked the wrong side and was supportive of that dreadful institution, but even many in the north still harbored racist feelings even as they disapproved of slavery. Their way of seeing the world was much different than how we see things now. Lincoln even tried to get Lee to lead in Union Army (granted, Lincoln did not always pick the best generals, i.e. McClellan).

My point being, choices and actions of that time must be understood within the context of the world they knew. The South will Rise folks create a black and white hero out of people like General Lee to give them a focus for their Confederate worship, but often times the other side does the same trying to make a black and white villain out of Lee.

In terms of the monuments, it should be less a debate about the person but what the monuments represent. In many cases, they are a representation of people who fought to continue slavery, and even more, a monument to a post-civil war time when people of color were kept separate and unequal.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#177

Post by Gregg » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:03 pm

Foggy wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:07 am
I'd like to think Grant would have defeated Lee, even if Lee had been a better general, and had sought a strategic stalemate.

Grant, of course, didn't face Lee until late in the war, after he captured Vicksburg. He surely had the resources to overcome a stalemate.

Please remember that only one general on either side of the War of Northern Aggression (I live in the South now :mrgreen:) ever managed to force the surrender and capture of an entire enemy army. That was Grant - and he did it three times. :think:
No, Sherman captured Joseph E, Johnston and his army intact at the end of the war, and George Thomas destroyed the Army of Tennessee at Nashville.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#178

Post by Suranis » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am

Reading Cracked this morning, and on an article deicately entitled "5 Famed Moments In History that were brought about by STDs" I ran across something relevent...

#2. The Confederacy's Invasion Of The North Was Thwarted By A Raging Case Of The Clap
If you're not a historian or a Civil War buff, we're guessing you've never heard of General Ambrose Powell Hill. But he was a fairly important figure, in that he commanded one of the infantry corps under Confederate General Robert E. Lee. Any bad decisions he made would matter. Oh, and he had gonorrhea.

Usually a dishonorable discharge means you're done serving.

Apparently, Hill's West Point education included some advanced "flanking maneuvers," and he picked up the clap while on furlough in New York City in 1844. Since there was no cure for the disease at the time, it had an unfortunate way of cropping up and affecting his performance at inopportune moments. One general described him as a "prodigy" at his best and "disappointing" and "lackluster" at his worst.

Hill spent most of the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg unwell and confined to his cot, looking "very delicate" to all who saw him. Things didn't go well in his absence from his men; under strict orders from General Lee not to engage in battle, Hill's subordinates did exactly the opposite. When Lee asked Hill why there were sounds of battle coming from the east, "the obviously ill corps commander claimed ignorance and mounted his horse to investigate." Later, though his corps made up the majority of the famous Pickett's Charge, Hill wasn't placed in command of the action, and also sort of forgot to mention (or simply didn't know) how badly beaten up those troops were. His corps suffered the most casualties during the ill-fated battle, and led the retreat back into Virginia.

Would fresh troops during Pickett's Charge, or a mentally sound general, or a condom years earlier, have resulted in the South winning the Civil War? Hard to say. But we are on board with the condom thing, in case you're furloughing in New York this year.
As a good Catholic, I'm not really down with this sort of thing... :swoon:


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#179

Post by ZekeB » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:52 am

Suranis wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am
As a good Catholic, I'm not really down with this sort of thing... :swoon:
Look at your Church history. Condoms probably would have been legal in 1844. The Pill was legal until 1962(?). STD's have been around almost as long as mankind. They were rampant during the Civil War. My G^3 grandfather had chronic orchitis.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#180

Post by Gregg » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:46 am

Suranis wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am
Reading Cracked this morning, and on an article deicately entitled "5 Famed Moments In History that were brought about by STDs" I ran across something relevent...

#2. The Confederacy's Invasion Of The North Was Thwarted By A Raging Case Of The Clap
If you're not a historian or a Civil War buff, we're guessing you've never heard of General Ambrose Powell Hill. But he was a fairly important figure, in that he commanded one of the infantry corps under Confederate General Robert E. Lee. Any bad decisions he made would matter. Oh, and he had gonorrhea.

Usually a dishonorable discharge means you're done serving.

Apparently, Hill's West Point education included some advanced "flanking maneuvers," and he picked up the clap while on furlough in New York City in 1844. Since there was no cure for the disease at the time, it had an unfortunate way of cropping up and affecting his performance at inopportune moments. One general described him as a "prodigy" at his best and "disappointing" and "lackluster" at his worst.

Hill spent most of the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg unwell and confined to his cot, looking "very delicate" to all who saw him. Things didn't go well in his absence from his men; under strict orders from General Lee not to engage in battle, Hill's subordinates did exactly the opposite. When Lee asked Hill why there were sounds of battle coming from the east, "the obviously ill corps commander claimed ignorance and mounted his horse to investigate." Later, though his corps made up the majority of the famous Pickett's Charge, Hill wasn't placed in command of the action, and also sort of forgot to mention (or simply didn't know) how badly beaten up those troops were. His corps suffered the most casualties during the ill-fated battle, and led the retreat back into Virginia.

Would fresh troops during Pickett's Charge, or a mentally sound general, or a condom years earlier, have resulted in the South winning the Civil War? Hard to say. But we are on board with the condom thing, in case you're furloughing in New York this year.
As a good Catholic, I'm not really down with this sort of thing... :swoon:

I'm not sure I agree with the premise of that article to begin with, and anyone who has ever stood on the Battlefield at Gettysburg should know that Lee was doomed from the moment he ignored Longstreet and decided to fight a battle there at all after the first day. When he found Meade on Cemetery Ridge he should have retreated down the Baltimore Pike and gotten between The Army of the Potomac and Washington DC, then picked a good place to defend at let the North throw troops at his lines until they ran out. He still would have probably lost the war, but almost anything was better than trying to take that little "copse of trees" across a mile of open ground.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#181

Post by Gregg » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:50 am

Sorry, I got a little carried away with my battlefield...but what I started to say was I don't think AP Hill having or not having an STD had anything to do with his performance in the Battle of Gettysburg. Hill was sick, and so for that matter, was Lee.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#182

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:00 am

http://www.businessinsider.com/memphis- ... th-2017-12
Memphis removes Confederate statue ahead of 50th anniversary of MLK's death

The removal of the statutes of President Jefferson Davis and Nathan Bedford Forrest comes three months before Memphis marks the 50th anniversary of the assassination there of civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr.

Confederate General Forrest was a slave trader and a Ku Klux Klan leader.

Earlier in the evening, the city council in Memphis voted unanimously to sell the land where the statues stood to a nonprofit organization called the Memphis Greenspace for $2,000 in order for the monuments to be removed, the Commercial Appeal newspaper reported.

"This is a fix, and a scam, and if the state has one hair on its ass then people will be charged with felonies," the Sons of Confederate Veterans said in a post on Facebook opposing the sale of the land.
Bravo, Memphis!!!!


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#183

Post by Azastan » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:05 am

if the state has one hair on its ass
What on earth does that mean?



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#184

Post by neeneko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:19 am

Azastan wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:05 am
What on earth does that mean?
Code for something? A signal?



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#185

Post by Chilidog » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:25 am

neeneko wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:19 am
Azastan wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:05 am
What on earth does that mean?
Code for something? A signal?
Confederates have hairy asses?



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#186

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:27 am

That phrase caught my attention too. Hubby is the repository of all Southern phrases such as "toad strangler" and "this tastes like mule piss" , yet he has never heard the expression. He deems it a good one though he doesn't know what it means.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#187

Post by vic » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:19 pm

I tried googling (not really a good idea) and the closest saying was related to having a hair up one's butt, which isn't at all close.

However, among all the questions relating to ass hair, there were some which might give a clue - they were variants on "why don't women have butt hair?". The only answer that came up in the google list (I didn't click any of the links) was something like "they do, but you have to look closer".

So maybe these troglodytes believe that only real men have butt-hair, and not having even a single one means you are a girly sissy weak librul.



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#188

Post by neeneko » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:43 pm

vic wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:19 pm
So maybe these troglodytes believe that only real men have butt-hair, and not having even a single one means you are a girly sissy weak librul.
Wow. That actually fits.



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#189

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:04 pm

vic wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:19 pm
I tried googling (not really a good idea) and the closest saying was related to having a hair up one's butt, which isn't at all close.

However, among all the questions relating to ass hair, there were some which might give a clue - they were variants on "why don't women have butt hair?". The only answer that came up in the google list (I didn't click any of the links) was something like "they do, but you have to look closer".

So maybe these troglodytes believe that only real men have butt-hair, and not having even a single one means you are a girly sissy weak librul.
That’s how I took it.



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#190

Post by Gregg » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:58 pm

Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:27 am
That phrase caught my attention too. Hubby is the repository of all Southern phrases such as "toad strangler" and "this tastes like mule piss" , yet he has never heard the expression. He deems it a good one though he doesn't know what it means.

Translates as "had any backbone".


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#191

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:11 am

Gregg wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:58 pm
Tiredretiredlawyer wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:27 am
That phrase caught my attention too. Hubby is the repository of all Southern phrases such as "toad strangler" and "this tastes like mule piss" , yet he has never heard the expression. He deems it a good one though he doesn't know what it means.

Translates as "had any backbone".
Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.
It's not something I hear every day, but it's not uncommon either.
Or maybe I just spent too many years hanging out in dive bars shooting pool or something.

(Of course, in keeping with the tenor of that particular comment, it would more likely be phrased as "you ain't got no balls.")



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#192

Post by RoadScholar » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:45 am

I’ve heard it used in exactly that sense many times.


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#193

Post by Gregg » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:56 am

Y'all need to get out more south of Atlanta.

:shootin:

...bunch of damn yankees...


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Re: Confederate Monuments

#194

Post by Foggy » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:36 pm

I already done knew how to find if a person has a hair on her ass. :mrgreen:

I still wanna know how to detect whether or not a state has a hair on its ass. :-



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Re: Confederate Monuments

#195

Post by Gregg » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:24 am

Foggy wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:36 pm
I already done knew how to find if a person has a hair on her ass. :mrgreen:

I still wanna know how to detect whether or not a state has a hair on its ass. :-
The current standard involves electing child molesters, I hear.


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