Confederate Monuments

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Northland10
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Re: Confederate Monuments

Post by Northland10 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:43 pm

After rereading some parts of Team of Rivals, I have noticed a tendency to put our modern way of thinking into people of that time. Certainly, Lee picked the wrong side and was supportive of that dreadful institution, but even many in the north still harbored racist feelings even as they disapproved of slavery. Their way of seeing the world was much different than how we see things now. Lincoln even tried to get Lee to lead in Union Army (granted, Lincoln did not always pick the best generals, i.e. McClellan).

My point being, choices and actions of that time must be understood within the context of the world they knew. The South will Rise folks create a black and white hero out of people like General Lee to give them a focus for their Confederate worship, but often times the other side does the same trying to make a black and white villain out of Lee.

In terms of the monuments, it should be less a debate about the person but what the monuments represent. In many cases, they are a representation of people who fought to continue slavery, and even more, a monument to a post-civil war time when people of color were kept separate and unequal.
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Gregg
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Re: Confederate Monuments

Post by Gregg » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:03 pm

Foggy wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:07 am
I'd like to think Grant would have defeated Lee, even if Lee had been a better general, and had sought a strategic stalemate.

Grant, of course, didn't face Lee until late in the war, after he captured Vicksburg. He surely had the resources to overcome a stalemate.

Please remember that only one general on either side of the War of Northern Aggression (I live in the South now :mrgreen:) ever managed to force the surrender and capture of an entire enemy army. That was Grant - and he did it three times. :think:
No, Sherman captured Joseph E, Johnston and his army intact at the end of the war, and George Thomas destroyed the Army of Tennessee at Nashville.
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Suranis
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Re: Confederate Monuments

Post by Suranis » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am

Reading Cracked this morning, and on an article deicately entitled "5 Famed Moments In History that were brought about by STDs" I ran across something relevent...

#2. The Confederacy's Invasion Of The North Was Thwarted By A Raging Case Of The Clap
If you're not a historian or a Civil War buff, we're guessing you've never heard of General Ambrose Powell Hill. But he was a fairly important figure, in that he commanded one of the infantry corps under Confederate General Robert E. Lee. Any bad decisions he made would matter. Oh, and he had gonorrhea.

Usually a dishonorable discharge means you're done serving.

Apparently, Hill's West Point education included some advanced "flanking maneuvers," and he picked up the clap while on furlough in New York City in 1844. Since there was no cure for the disease at the time, it had an unfortunate way of cropping up and affecting his performance at inopportune moments. One general described him as a "prodigy" at his best and "disappointing" and "lackluster" at his worst.

Hill spent most of the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg unwell and confined to his cot, looking "very delicate" to all who saw him. Things didn't go well in his absence from his men; under strict orders from General Lee not to engage in battle, Hill's subordinates did exactly the opposite. When Lee asked Hill why there were sounds of battle coming from the east, "the obviously ill corps commander claimed ignorance and mounted his horse to investigate." Later, though his corps made up the majority of the famous Pickett's Charge, Hill wasn't placed in command of the action, and also sort of forgot to mention (or simply didn't know) how badly beaten up those troops were. His corps suffered the most casualties during the ill-fated battle, and led the retreat back into Virginia.

Would fresh troops during Pickett's Charge, or a mentally sound general, or a condom years earlier, have resulted in the South winning the Civil War? Hard to say. But we are on board with the condom thing, in case you're furloughing in New York this year.
As a good Catholic, I'm not really down with this sort of thing... :swoon:
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ZekeB
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Re: Confederate Monuments

Post by ZekeB » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:52 am

Suranis wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am
As a good Catholic, I'm not really down with this sort of thing... :swoon:
Look at your Church history. Condoms probably would have been legal in 1844. The Pill was legal until 1962(?). STD's have been around almost as long as mankind. They were rampant during the Civil War. My G^3 grandfather had chronic orchitis.
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Gregg
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Re: Confederate Monuments

Post by Gregg » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:46 am

Suranis wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:28 am
Reading Cracked this morning, and on an article deicately entitled "5 Famed Moments In History that were brought about by STDs" I ran across something relevent...

#2. The Confederacy's Invasion Of The North Was Thwarted By A Raging Case Of The Clap
If you're not a historian or a Civil War buff, we're guessing you've never heard of General Ambrose Powell Hill. But he was a fairly important figure, in that he commanded one of the infantry corps under Confederate General Robert E. Lee. Any bad decisions he made would matter. Oh, and he had gonorrhea.

Usually a dishonorable discharge means you're done serving.

Apparently, Hill's West Point education included some advanced "flanking maneuvers," and he picked up the clap while on furlough in New York City in 1844. Since there was no cure for the disease at the time, it had an unfortunate way of cropping up and affecting his performance at inopportune moments. One general described him as a "prodigy" at his best and "disappointing" and "lackluster" at his worst.

Hill spent most of the first day of the Battle of Gettysburg unwell and confined to his cot, looking "very delicate" to all who saw him. Things didn't go well in his absence from his men; under strict orders from General Lee not to engage in battle, Hill's subordinates did exactly the opposite. When Lee asked Hill why there were sounds of battle coming from the east, "the obviously ill corps commander claimed ignorance and mounted his horse to investigate." Later, though his corps made up the majority of the famous Pickett's Charge, Hill wasn't placed in command of the action, and also sort of forgot to mention (or simply didn't know) how badly beaten up those troops were. His corps suffered the most casualties during the ill-fated battle, and led the retreat back into Virginia.

Would fresh troops during Pickett's Charge, or a mentally sound general, or a condom years earlier, have resulted in the South winning the Civil War? Hard to say. But we are on board with the condom thing, in case you're furloughing in New York this year.
As a good Catholic, I'm not really down with this sort of thing... :swoon:

I'm not sure I agree with the premise of that article to begin with, and anyone who has ever stood on the Battlefield at Gettysburg should know that Lee was doomed from the moment he ignored Longstreet and decided to fight a battle there at all after the first day. When he found Meade on Cemetery Ridge he should have retreated down the Baltimore Pike and gotten between The Army of the Potomac and Washington DC, then picked a good place to defend at let the North throw troops at his lines until they ran out. He still would have probably lost the war, but almost anything was better than trying to take that little "copse of trees" across a mile of open ground.
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Gregg
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Re: Confederate Monuments

Post by Gregg » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:50 am

Sorry, I got a little carried away with my battlefield...but what I started to say was I don't think AP Hill having or not having an STD had anything to do with his performance in the Battle of Gettysburg. Hill was sick, and so for that matter, was Lee.
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