LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

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Hurtzi
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1101

Post by Hurtzi » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:52 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:18 pm
The UK has an unwritten constitution and a large body of constitutional law.
If the Constitution is unwritten it has to be transferred orally, like fairy-tales before the Grimm brothers wrote them up and they were no longer unwritten. So why does no one write up the UK Constitution just like the Grimm brothers did with fairy-tales? Would be helpful to have a pocket UK Constitution.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1102

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:00 pm

*shrug*

The UK constitution's status isn't substantially different than any other area of common law.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1103

Post by Suranis » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:16 pm

Parts of The UK Constitution ARE written down, its just not writtin in one single book or list.

https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/ ... nstitution
For most people, especially abroad, the United Kingdom does not have a constitution at all in the sense most commonly used around the world – a document of fundamental importance setting out the structure of government and its relationship with its citizens. All modern states, saving only the UK, New Zealand and Israel, have adopted a documentary constitution of this kind, the first and most complete model being that of the United States of America in 1788. However, in Britain we certainly say that we have a constitution, but it is one that exists in an abstract sense, comprising a host of diverse laws, practices and conventions that have evolved over a long period of time. The key landmark is the Bill of Rights (1689), which established the supremacy of Parliament over the Crown following the forcible replacement of King James II (r. 1685–88) by William III (r. 1689–1702) and Mary (r. 1689–94) in the Glorious Revolution (1688).

From a comparative perspective, we have what is known as an ‘unwritten constitution’, although some prefer to describe it as ‘uncodified’ on the basis that many of our laws of a constitutional nature are in fact written down in Acts of Parliament or law reports of court judgments. This aspect of the British constitution, its unwritten nature, is its most distinguishing characteristic.

Another characteristic of the unwritten constitution is the special significance of political customs known as ‘conventions’, which oil the wheels of the relationship between the ancient institutions of state. These are unwritten rules of constitutional practice, vital to our politics, the workings of government, but not committed into law or any written form at all. The very existence of the office of Prime Minister, our head of government, is purely conventional. So is the rule upon which he or she is appointed, being whoever commands the confidence of the House of Commons (the majority party leader, or head of a coalition of parties).

The Monarchy is one of the three components of Parliament (shorthand for the Queen-in-Parliament) along with Commons and Lords. In legal theory, the Queen has absolute and judicially unchallengeable power to refuse her assent to a Bill passed by the two Houses of Parliament. However, convention dictates the precise opposite and in practice she automatically gives her assent to any government Bill that has been duly passed and agreed by Parliament. Another important convention is that government ministers must have a seat in Parliament (and, in the case of the Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer, specifically in the House of Commons) in order to hold office. This is a vital aspect of what is known as the ‘Westminster system of parliamentary government’, providing a direct form of executive responsibility and accountability to the legislature.
Before people sneer too much at the "conventions" part of the UK constitution, there are the same kind of "Conventions" in Washinton about this and that, which FATUS simply walked through as people realised there was not actually laws on the books to stop him.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1104

Post by Tarrant » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm

Suranis has it right. Much of what the UK relies on to make its government work aren’t necessarily codified but are simply traditions and/or conventions that don’t have to be heeded at all if someone decides they don’t want to heed them anymore. It’s just that it hasn’t happened. Furthermore, since Parliament cannot bind Parliament, anything and everything that *is* codified can be changed by a simple majority vote.

This is very different than a formalized constitution that often has amendment procedures that require more hurdles than a simple vote of a legislative body (some require a national referendum, some a supermajority, etc. but it’s generally more than a standard law).

Trump, and really recent Republican antics even at the state level (stripping entire offices of all power because a Republican didn’t win them, etc.) really do a lot to show what can happen when someone decides that the “gentlemanly agreements” that the government has run on for decades or even centuries don’t apply to them anymore, because they can get what they want more easily by ignoring them, or avoid consequences for misdeeds by doing so.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1105

Post by Hurtzi » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:56 pm

Tarrant wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:50 pm
Suranis has it right. Much of what the UK relies on to make its government work aren’t necessarily codified but are simply traditions and/or conventions that don’t have to be heeded at all if someone decides they don’t want to heed them anymore. It’s just that it hasn’t happened. Furthermore, since Parliament cannot bind Parliament, anything and everything that *is* codified can be changed by a simple majority vote.

This is very different than a formalized constitution that often has amendment procedures that require more hurdles than a simple vote of a legislative body (some require a national referendum, some a supermajority, etc. but it’s generally more than a standard law).

Trump, and really recent Republican antics even at the state level (stripping entire offices of all power because a Republican didn’t win them, etc.) really do a lot to show what can happen when someone decides that the “gentlemanly agreements” that the government has run on for decades or even centuries don’t apply to them anymore, because they can get what they want more easily by ignoring them, or avoid consequences for misdeeds by doing so.
Thank you.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1106

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:17 pm

Uncodified Constitutions are certainly different from more formalized ones such as the US - I'd be the last person to claim otherwise. But I think the situation is a bit more complex than what Suranis has described. Constitutional requirements, because they come from legal sources, do have a bit more enforceability than most "conventions," and the English courts have ruled against the Government on constitutional grounds on matters related to Brexit.

And while it's undoubtedly true that there are stability issues when a constitution is easy to amend, there are also sometimes issues when it's too difficult to amend - we see this in the USA. (Too, also, there are quite a few US states where it's relatively easy to amend the state constitution; I think Alabama is pushing 1000 total amendments.)

In any event, I was responding to our European friend's initial assertion that a UK constitution is "nowhere to be found."
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1107

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Have they checked with Mario Apuzzo?

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1108

Post by Reality Check » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:36 am

And Robert Christopher Laity...
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1109

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am

From Reuters
CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

Heading toward one of the biggest constitutional crises in at least a century, Britain's elite are quarrelling over how, when and even if the result of the shock 2016 referendum will be implemented.

Part of the problem is that Britain's constitution, once touted as a global model, is uncodified and vague. It relies on precedent, but there is little for Brexit.

The House of Commons speaker John Bercow told an audience in Scotland that lawmakers could prevent a no-deal Brexit and that he would fight any attempt to prorogue, or suspend, parliament “with every bone in my body”.

"We cannot have a situation in which parliament is shut down – we are a democratic society," the Telegraph quoted Bercow as saying at an event on the sidelines of the Edinburgh Festival.
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEK ... id=US%3Aen
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1110

Post by pipistrelle » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:38 am

One of the things I struggle with is people at one moment in time, people who don't understand implications, making a decision with such far-reaching and unpredictable effects. It seems wrong.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1111

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:43 am

pipistrelle wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:38 am
One of the things I struggle with is people at one moment in time, people who don't understand implications, making a decision with such far-reaching and unpredictable effects. It seems wrong.
That is the main weakness of democracy.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1112

Post by Tarrant » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:12 am

pipistrelle wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:38 am
One of the things I struggle with is people at one moment in time, people who don't understand implications, making a decision with such far-reaching and unpredictable effects. It seems wrong.
More than that, it incenses me that a side in said referendum and blatantly lie, cheat, and say whatever they want (“We can get Europe to let us keep everything we like about the EU and we’ll give up everything we dislike about it!” “Let’s give £300 million a week to the NHS! It’s totally there! The people saying it isn’t are lying!” “The people talking about Ireland are just Remoaners!”

Then, when the referendum is over, and their side won, they can actually stand there and say “Yes, we completely lied, but it worked didn’t it? The People Have Spoken and that’s that and no take-backs.” You had Leavers - members of the official campaign even - openly and gleefully admitting how they duped people into voting for it. Not everyone, certainly - some people really wanted to leave, some didn’t like immigrants, but some really believed those lies.

(Right now, what boils me is how many people in Boris’ Government are like “The people knew what they were doing and that No Deal was likely, that’s what they wanted!” when the Leave campaign actually specifically ruled out No Deal as a possibility, because “A deal will be so easy”. When the Remain campaign brought up the danger of no deal, the Leavers called them liars. And now the Government is acting like it’s what the people were voting for all along.

Sorry for the rant, it just gets me hotheaded. A non-negligible percentage of the Leave campaign was based on complete fabrications and the UK is fracturing because of it, and a large percentage of people don’t care because The People Voted.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1113

Post by Foggy » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:14 am

... which is another weakness of democracy. :daydream:
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1114

Post by Reality Check » Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:26 am

Hurtzi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am
From Reuters
CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS
:snippity:
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEK ... id=US%3Aen
Wait, how can the UK have a Constitution Crisis without a Constitution? ;)
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1115

Post by Hurtzi » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:11 am

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:26 am
Hurtzi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am
From Reuters
CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS
:snippity:
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEK ... id=US%3Aen
Wait, how can the UK have a Constitution Crisis without a Constitution? ;)
Because they are Brits. Known for their strange sense of humor. Did you know that they're at this very moment preparing the bold move of jumping off the white cliffs of Dover? Collectively and without parachutes?
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1116

Post by much ado » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:33 am

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:26 am
Hurtzi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am
From Reuters
CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS
:snippity:
https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEK ... id=US%3Aen
Wait, how can the UK have a Constitution Crisis without a Constitution? ;)
I thought we had gone through this. Just because their constitution is not written down as a single document does not mean they don't have a constitution.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1117

Post by Notorial Dissent » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:47 am

Hurtzi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:11 am
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:26 am
Hurtzi wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am
From Reuters



https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEK ... id=US%3Aen
Wait, how can the UK have a Constitution Crisis without a Constitution? ;)
Because they are Brits. Known for their strange sense of humor. Did you know that they're at this very moment preparing the bold move of jumping off the white cliffs of Dover? Collectively and without parachutes?
There is no question that the Brits have a VERY strange sense of humor. The article got one very major thing wrong. It is NOT the British Constitution that is "touted as a global model" but the British form of government.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1118

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:48 am

Brexit: Another successful Putin operation.

He's actually much more successful ratfucking western democracies than he is running his own country.

Pathetic little man.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1119

Post by Reality Check » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:23 pm

much ado wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:33 am
I thought we had gone through this. Just because their constitution is not written down as a single document does not mean they don't have a constitution.
Looks like I should have added the :sarcastic: tag.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1120

Post by much ado » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:15 pm

Reality Check wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:23 pm
much ado wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:33 am
I thought we had gone through this. Just because their constitution is not written down as a single document does not mean they don't have a constitution.
Looks like I should have added the :sarcastic: tag.
Yup. I guess so. Some of us are a little slow. :bag:

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1121

Post by PaulG » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:16 pm

You might as well ask why the UK doesn't have UK on their stamps.

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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1122

Post by Slim Cognito » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:42 pm

much ado wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:15 pm
Reality Check wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:23 pm
much ado wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:33 am
I thought we had gone through this. Just because their constitution is not written down as a single document does not mean they don't have a constitution.
Looks like I should have added the :sarcastic: tag.
Yup. I guess so. Some of us are a little slow. :bag:
To be fair, things that would have been instantly recognized as sarcasm a few years ago have become normalized daily events. Can you imagine Obama, or even W, tweeting* that a predecessor needs to be investigated for emoluments violations, much less murder?

*I don't know if tweeting was a thing pre-2009 and I'm not going to bother checking. You get my drift.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1123

Post by Gregg » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:59 pm

PaulG wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:16 pm
You might as well ask why the UK doesn't have UK on their stamps.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1124

Post by Orlylicious » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:19 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:48 am
Brexit: Another successful Putin operation.

He's actually much more successful ratfucking western democracies than he is running his own country.

Pathetic little man.
:like:

A friend of mine went to school with Boris Johnson, he's an entertainer more than anything. My Euro friends say he's a joke. IIRC, another classmate was Ms. Maxwell who is in the middle of the Epstein disaster. They were at Eton together I think (but don't take that 100%, I'd have to reconfirm).

I'm sad for the people of the UK, I've had friends move their businesses out because of the uncertainty.
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Re: LEAVE Brexit Vote: Leave EU Thu 23 June - Market and US Election Impact

#1125

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:03 am

good luck with squeezing that into the next few days prior to the Brexit date
Philip Hammond ‘confident’ parliament can stop Boris Johnson forcing through no‑deal
Steven Swinford, Deputy Political Editor
August 14 2019, 12:00pm, The Times

A second referendum is possible if parliament fails to stop a no deal Brexit, the former chancellor said

Philip Hammond raised the prospect of a second referendum as he said he was “very confident” that parliament will be able to stop a no-deal Brexit.

The former chancellor said that MPs would pass legislation to block a no-deal Brexit as he accused Dominic Cummings, Boris Johnson’s most senior aide, of trying to wreck any chance of a deal.

He suggested that if, after preventing the government from taking the UK out of the European Union without a withdrawal agreement, parliament was unable to agree a way forward there would have to be either a general election or another referendum.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -5qw9v2dkm

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