The Ahmaud Arbery case

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TexasFilly
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The Ahmaud Arbery case

#1

Post by TexasFilly »

I think we need this thread. The "Another Shooting" thread has been around here for years and already has multiple pages of discussion of one case.
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Maybenaut
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#2

Post by Maybenaut »

There’s an Army JAG named Augustus Turner. I don’t know him personally, but some of my JAG friends do. Anyway, he posted a short essay on his Facebook feed about jogging while black. It’s some mighty powerful stuff.
Augustus Turner wrote: I am a black man who jogs.
When I jog, I always do so alone. I am also a Soldier, and a large one at that (about 6’2 240 lbs). This means every few years, I have to move to a completely new suburb, and jog, alone. This means that I, like every Soldier, is used to jogging alone, in new places, where people may not recognize, know, or be familiar with me. I am used to it. My wife is not.
For nearly ten years, Michelle Yeager Turner cautioned me about how I appear when I jog alone. She will not even let me out of the house unless I wear enough colorful and “innocent” clothing so as not to appear suspicious or threatening when I jog. While she has never said it directly, I know that every time I step out the door, she is afraid my appearance alone could get me killed.
Sometimes, in the back of my head, I foolishly think to myself:
I am just a black man who jogs!
I am a good person! Why would somebody shoot me just because I am black and unfamiliar? I am a former EMT. I volunteered in an emergency room for over a year to get my way into college. I have been a licensed attorney and active duty Army Officer for nine years. I have represented and helped over 60 sexual assault victims. I have run a legal aid clinic recognized as one of the best in the Army. I have worked with federal agents to put countless criminals behind bars and break up complex criminal enterprises. I have helped justify the destruction of hundreds of enemy targets in Iraq. I have cleared the names of wrongfully convicted criminals. Who would want to hurt me?
Well, none of that matters because…
I am still a black man who jogs.
If I frighten the wrong white person, or match the description of a threatening person…
I become no different from Ahumaud Arbery.
None of the good I have done in my life will stop a white vigilante mob from chasing me in their trucks, cocking their firearms as they approach me jogging, gunning me down, recording it, and apparently getting away with it.
Although I am a black man who jogs, please… treat me like a white man who jogs.
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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#3

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

He shouldn't have admitted he was an attorney. :torches:

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#4

Post by Frater I*I »

Funny how a black man is confronted by armed white men in a pickup truck in Georgia...and decides to run away.

Because we all know how well it's worked out in this state's history....

:doh:
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#5

Post by Jeffrey »

Some quick damage control. It’s overwhelmingly likely that Barnhills claim of burglary was false and the jogging story was true in which case this was clearly murder. For context in the mid 2000s there was a sovereign citizen case in Tennessee which hinged on the powers of a citizen during a citizens arrest. In that case the judge gave a breakdown of the case law and statutory powers and limitations which explained among other things that at least in TN you can use deadly force when attempting a citizens arrest. I assumed the same applies in Georgia and therefore this situation. That’s the framework I was viewing this through.

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ArthurWankspittle
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#6

Post by ArthurWankspittle »

Frater I*I wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:35 pm
Funny how a black man is confronted by armed white men in a pickup truck in Georgia...and decides to run away.

Because we all know how well it's worked out in this state's history....

:doh:
This is the basis for my concern about the laws. I am only using this case a base and we don't have all the details but here is a scenario. Two white men believe a person has committed a crime and attempt to make a citizens arrest. This person believes they have never committed a crime and their life is being threatened - possible kidnapping, assault with a deadly weapon, murder etc. Said person draws firearm and kills the two persons he believes are attacking him. From what I can see of the law, this is allowed? Am I wrong?
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#7

Post by Dave at Sea »

You are not wrong.

What happens next is the police/DA determine if the Stand Your Ground was justified, if they believe it wasn’t then you may be charged and brought before the courts.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#8

Post by Dave at Sea »

Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-3-21

(a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23 , a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

(b) A person is not justified in using force under the circumstances specified in subsection (a) of this Code section if he:

(1) Initially provokes the use of force against himself with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant;

(2) Is attempting to commit, committing, or fleeing after the commission or attempted commission of a felony; or

(3) Was the aggressor or was engaged in a combat by agreement unless he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so and the other, notwithstanding, continues or threatens to continue the use of unlawful force.

(c) Any rule, regulation, or policy of any agency of the state or any ordinance, resolution, rule, regulation, or policy of any county, municipality, or other political subdivision of the state which is in conflict with this Code section shall be null, void, and of no force and effect.

(d) In a prosecution for murder or manslaughter, if a defendant raises as a defense a justification provided by subsection (a) of this Code section, the defendant, in order to establish the defendant's reasonable belief that the use of force or deadly force was immediately necessary, may be permitted to offer:

(1) Relevant evidence that the defendant had been the victim of acts of family violence or child abuse committed by the deceased, as such acts are described in Code Sections 19-13-1 and 19-15-1 , respectively; and

(2) Relevant expert testimony regarding the condition of the mind of the defendant at the time of the offense, including those relevant facts and circumstances relating to the family violence or child abuse that are the bases of the expert's opinion.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#9

Post by Dave at Sea »

2010 Georgia Code
TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS
ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS
§ 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest
O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#10

Post by Dave at Sea »

I’m surprised that the NRA hasn’t already come out and said that had Arbery been armed and fired first he would still be alive.

(Who am I kidding.. they wouldn’t say that as they would lose 90% of their support base if they did.)

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#11

Post by Bill_G »

Perhaps I've told this before, but it's worth retelling.

One of the services our company offers is signal coverage measurements for public safety and commercial services. It requires driving a vehicle bristling with test equipment on a grid through a metro area. We hire engineering students from local colleges to drive marked company vehicles all over the place, at all hours of the day, because you can generally cover more area at night when there is less traffic.

That also means the local police get calls of black/dark/menacing men prowling the neighborhoods.

... despite the yellow flashers we put on the vehicles (because we all know that criminals drive around with warning lights on, and a laptop on a pedestal illuminating the interior). And the company decals - not mag signs. And the 1-800-call-for-info stickers. And the weird looking antenna dome on top.

Some cops are nice about it. Some not so much, and have to run the student through every database, and inspect every inch of the Explorer before he's satified that they aren't trying to do whatever it is they think black men do at night in a white neighborhood in a marked white service vehicle with whirling yellow lights on top. One part of Portland got so bad (cough) Lake Oswego (aka Lake No Negro)(cough), that we learned to email, fax, and call their dispatch prior to our guys attempting those grids just to keep everyone safe.

It's kind of sad that we have to protect our employees from the local population.

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neeneko
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#12

Post by neeneko »

Jeffrey wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 1:20 am
Some quick damage control. It’s overwhelmingly likely that Barnhills claim of burglary was false and the jogging story was true in which case this was clearly murder. For context in the mid 2000s there was a sovereign citizen case in Tennessee which hinged on the powers of a citizen during a citizens arrest. In that case the judge gave a breakdown of the case law and statutory powers and limitations which explained among other things that at least in TN you can use deadly force when attempting a citizens arrest. I assumed the same applies in Georgia and therefore this situation. That’s the framework I was viewing this through.
I have been mulling over these two cases, and think they actually make an interesting comparison.

Setting aside the ground truth of each situation, Dave at Sea notes
What happens next is the police/DA determine if the Stand Your Ground was justified, if they believe it wasn’t then you may be charged and brought before the courts.
So how the two cases are handled by their local law enforcement is where they mirror each other in interesting ways.

In Arbery's case, you had an outsider who had been shot by insiders. People who were politically connected and known to local law enforcement, so they got the benifit of the doubt and their narrative was accepted as justification.

For Parsons, he was on the losing side of a local political fight (I read his sovcit nuttery as being a result of the conflict, not he cause, but timelines are vague). He was known to law enforcement and the judge as someone 'against' their local political friends, and the people he tried to arrest were politically connected friends of the same. His narrative was immediately dismissed.

I think it highlights a big problem with stand your ground and citizen's arrest, they both depend on the responding officers and the local prosecutor accepting your narrative or not, which is heavily influenced by place in the local political establishment. This becomes even starker in small towns, where corruption tends to be much greater and oversight much weaker.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#13

Post by neeneko »

Dave at Sea wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:32 am
I’m surprised that the NRA hasn’t already come out and said that had Arbery been armed and fired first he would still be alive.

(Who am I kidding.. they wouldn’t say that as they would lose 90% of their support base if they did.)
Yeah, they would only say that if a couple of black men tried to arrest a white jogger. Instead, this is a marketing opportunity for pointing out how useful a gun was in stopping a dangerous criminal and the power of citizens to protect their own neighborhoods.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#14

Post by Dave at Sea »

Given that the Georgia (and other similar) Stand Your Ground statutes are Mens Rea, where you only need to show you had reason to fear...

My reaction to non police having fire arms is a reasonable fear that the person will use it in me.. thus I should be able to Stand My Ground and shoot anyone who is open carrying or I suspect is concealed carrying (except police) - anyone has a problem with that?
(After all I am very white)

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#15

Post by Frater I*I »

Dave at Sea wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 10:53 am
Given that the Georgia (and other similar) Stand Your Ground statutes are Mens Rea, where you only need to show you had reason to fear...

My reaction to non police having fire arms is a reasonable fear that the person will use it in me.. thus I should be able to Stand My Ground and shoot anyone who is open carrying or I suspect is concealed carrying (except police) - anyone has a problem with that?
(After all I am very white)
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#16

Post by pipistrelle »

Dave at Sea wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 10:53 am
Given that the Georgia (and other similar) Stand Your Ground statutes are Mens Rea, where you only need to show you had reason to fear...

My reaction to non police having fire arms is a reasonable fear that the person will use it in me.. thus I should be able to Stand My Ground and shoot anyone who is open carrying or I suspect is concealed carrying (except police) - anyone has a problem with that?
That's part of why I think open carry is INSANE and don't understand why it's allowed except in the obvious places (ranges, gun clubs, game lands in season).

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#17

Post by Volkonski »

So far I haven't found corroboration in MSM but for what it is worth-
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Hail Mary, what do we have here now? Seems the dad was recently at a Klan rally in Rome Georgia. Confederate flag and robe and all. Had his Confederate gray hat on as well. Pride not hate...right?? Definitely needs some looking into. Former cop. Now imagine all the people he...
arrested and terrorized before . Maybe Travis was doing his rite of passage on Maud...a sort of Klan orientation. Which side are u on people?? Now imagine all the other crooked cops out there with thoughts like him. This pos was law enforcement. Late night traffic stops...planting evidence perhaps?? Both father and son need to be prosecuted to fullest extent of law. I wouldnt even be opposed to a federal hate crime like Patrick Crusius (Walmart Killer) or Dylan Roof. This is why it is important to vote people. Also the police chief needs to resign and all those who said this killing was in self defense. I want names with faces.🤔

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#18

Post by pipistrelle »

Volkonski wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 12:02 pm
So far I haven't found corroboration in MSM but for what it is worth-
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#19

Post by Volkonski »



Charlie Gile
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The scope of this #AhmaudArbery rally is impossible to capture with one video. Cars parked as far as I can see to get in.



Charlie Gile
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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#20

Post by Jeffrey »

neeneko wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 9:53 am
For Parsons, he was on the losing side of a local political fight (I read his sovcit nuttery as being a result of the conflict, not he cause, but timelines are vague). He was known to law enforcement and the judge as someone 'against' their local political friends, and the people he tried to arrest were politically connected friends of the same. His narrative was immediately dismissed.

I think it highlights a big problem with stand your ground and citizen's arrest, they both depend on the responding officers and the local prosecutor accepting your narrative or not, which is heavily influenced by place in the local political establishment. This becomes even starker in small towns, where corruption tends to be much greater and oversight much weaker.
Well the two big differences between the two state statutes and cases is Tennessee only allows citizens arrest in places where you have a right to be. Because Mike had trespassed into his neighbors farm the defense fell apart.

The other part was he was only allowed to use or threaten to use deadly force consistent with the self defense laws. Threatening to kill Laxton and King unless they got on the ground wasn’t self defense. Neither threatened him.

But inversely, if Parsons had been on public property and King or Laxton punched him during the citizens arrest, it seems that he would have been allowed to kill them.

(Oh and of course neither King nor Laxton committed any crimes).

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#21

Post by Sugar Magnolia »

Funny how Arbery's shoplifting past was known almost immediately and blared out like it was justification for shooting him, but it took until now to hear about the police dept itself.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/georgia-poli ... 12697.html
Carr’s office has already determined that George E. Barnhill, a district attorney who was assigned the case in February but recused himself late last month, should have never taken it on. Among his many conflicts: His son once worked alongside one of the suspects at the local prosecutor’s office.

S. Lee Merritt, a lawyer representing Arbery’s family, has called for a federal civil rights investigation focused not only on the men who pursued Arbery but also the broader justice system.

“It’s small-town America,” Merritt said in an interview Thursday. “Those counties, the law enforcement community there, they know each other well; they recycle officers in between themselves — it’s a very tight-knit community.”

Over the years, Glynn County police officers have been accused of covering up allegations of misconduct, tampering with a crime scene, interfering in an investigation of a police shooting and retaliating against fellow officers who cooperated with outside investigators.

The police chief was indicted days after Arbery’s killing on charges related to an alleged cover-up of an officer’s sexual relationship with an informant. The chief, John Powell, had been hired to clean up the department, which the Glynn County manager described last fall as suffering from poor training, outdated policies and “a culture of cronyism.”

The Glynn County force was the sort of department where disciplinary records went missing and where evidence room standards were not maintained, leading the state to strip it of its accreditation.
Read the whole thing.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#22

Post by Dave at Sea »

pipistrelle wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 11:51 am
Dave at Sea wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 10:53 am
Given that the Georgia (and other similar) Stand Your Ground statutes are Mens Rea, where you only need to show you had reason to fear...

My reaction to non police having fire arms is a reasonable fear that the person will use it in me.. thus I should be able to Stand My Ground and shoot anyone who is open carrying or I suspect is concealed carrying (except police) - anyone has a problem with that?
That's part of why I think open carry is INSANE and don't understand why it's allowed except in the obvious places (ranges, gun clubs, game lands in season).
If concealed carry is legal, then that notches up my fear level ten fold and so would I not be justified to Stand My Ground and shoot everyone that I suspect has a gun as they are a threat to my safety in my mind?

Ps. I live in Australia since we changed our gun laws I have little fear of being shot, except accidentally (I live within range of a forest where hunting is permitted and there are farms where sometimes you hear shots fired).
We have no public open or concealed carry in public places (except for specific trained and certified and controlled individuals) and “self defence” is not a valid reason for owning a firearm. The laws are not perfect, none ever are, but they work - my friends who hunt or shoot still can, everyone’s risk of being injured/killed is far less (IIRC about 1/5th).

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#23

Post by Jeffrey »

Dave at Sea wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:15 pm
If concealed carry is legal, then that notches up my fear level ten fold and so would I not be justified to Stand My Ground and shoot everyone that I suspect has a gun as they are a threat to my safety in my mind?

Ps. I live in Australia since we changed our gun laws I have little fear of being shot, except accidentally (I live within range of a forest where hunting is permitted and there are farms where sometimes you hear shots fired).
We have no public open or concealed carry in public places (except for specific trained and certified and controlled individuals) and “self defence” is not a valid reason for owning a firearm. The laws are not perfect, none ever are, but they work - my friends who hunt or shoot still can, everyone’s risk of being injured/killed is far less (IIRC about 1/5th).
I guess we have the luxury of observing at a distance but in my mind the south is like Mos Eisly, Tattoine. Everyone is carrying a weapon so so it’s not scary to see someone waltz in with a blaster or laser sword. Someone’s arm get chopped off and you just keep drinking.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#24

Post by Dave at Sea »

Good anology,
In the original movie Han shot Greego in cold blood
Then the evidence (movie) was tampered with to make out that it was in self defence.

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Re: The Ahmaud Arbery case

#25

Post by Dave at Sea »

As far as the statute goes..
Stand You Ground laws provides an opportunity for murder to be covered up, as in this case.

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