Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

User avatar
noblepa
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Bay Village, Ohio
Occupation: Network Engineer

Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#1

Post by noblepa »

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics ... index.html

SOS Pompeo has declared that Hoda Muthana, an Alabama resident, born in Hackensack, NJ, is not a citizen and will not be allowed to return to the US.

Without getting into what she did or didn't do, is there any law that allows a President of SOS to unilaterally strip a person, especially one born on US soil, of their citizenship?

I know that Nazi war criminals and others who were naturalized have had their citizenship stripped, when it was shown that they lied on their citizenship applications.

But this person was born here, and has held a US passport in the past.

Even if she were to come home and be convicted of some crime or other, could the court, as punishment, strip her of her citizenship? IANAL, but I don't believe that there is any such law.

User avatar
bob
Posts: 28423
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#2

Post by bob »

noblepa wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:50 pm
Without getting into what she did or didn't do, is there any law that allows a President of SOS to unilaterally strip a person, especially one born on US soil, of their citizenship?
Basically, no. But there's a twist:

Slate: Trump Administration Claims Alabama ISIS Wife Is Not U.S. Citizen:
In a twitter thread, New York Times reporter Rukmini Callimachi, who recently interviewed Muthana, said that she was concerned her citizenship might be called into question due to a technicality. Although Muthana was born in the U.S., she is the daughter of a Yemeni diplomat, which would make her ineligible for birthright citizenship. However, Muthana’s father was, according to her family, no longer a diplomat at the time of her birth and provided proof of this when she (successfully) applied for her first passport.
The administration may try to jam her on that basis.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 17954
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#3

Post by Suranis »

Different laws of course, but the UK just yanked the UK citizenship of a similar case, a woman who fled to ISIS and is now in a Syrian Refugee camp and wants to come home.
The difference between the Middle Ages, and the Age of the Internet, is that in the Middle Ages no-one thought the Earth was flat.

User avatar
scirreeve
Posts: 4236
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:51 am

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#4

Post by scirreeve »


User avatar
Whip
Posts: 4093
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:31 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#5

Post by Whip »

so the ISIS thing has no bearing in this?

User avatar
bob
Posts: 28423
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#6

Post by bob »

Whip wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:30 pm
so the ISIS thing has no bearing in this?
The president and SOSOTUS have been vague -- maybe, maybe not; whatever. The clear leadership you'd expect from this administration. :roll:

I think they're waiting see how it plays in Peoria before actually defining the United States' position.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Orlylicious
Posts: 11697
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:02 pm
Location: With Pete Buttigieg and the other "open and defiant homosexuals" --Bryan Fischer AFA
Occupation: "Do Nothing Democrat Savage" -- Donald, 9/28/19 and "Scalawag...Part of an extreme, malicious leftist internet social mob working in concert with weaponized, socialized governments to target and injure political opponents.” -- Walt Fitzpatrick

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#7

Post by Orlylicious »

According to FindLaw, "Natural-born U.S. citizens may not have their citizenship revoked against their will, since birthright citizenship is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, but they may choose to renounce their citizenship on their own." Sounds like Orly Taitz could be "denaturalized" but if that girl was born in the US and the Dad wasn't a diplomat, sounds like a 14th Amendment argument.
Can Your U.S. Citizenship Be Revoked?

Although rare, it is possible for a naturalized U.S. citizen to have their citizenship stripped through a process called "denaturalization." Former citizens who are denaturalized are subject to removal (deportation) from the United States. Natural-born U.S. citizens may not have their citizenship revoked against their will, since birthright citizenship is guaranteed by the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, but they may choose to renounce their citizenship on their own.

This article covers the grounds for having one's U.S. citizenship revoked, the basics of the denaturalization process, and defenses to denaturalization.

Grounds for Denaturalization

Falsification or Concealment of Relevant Facts: You must be absolutely truthful when filling out paperwork and answering interview questions related to the naturalization application process. Even if the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) fails to recognize any lies or ommissions at first, the agency may file a denaturalization action against you after citizenship has been granted. Examples include failure to disclose criminal activities or lying about one's real name or identity.
Refusal to Testify Before Congress: You may not refuse to testify before a U.S. congressional committee whose job it is to investigate your alleged involvement in subversive acts, such as those intended to harm U.S. officials or overthrow the U.S. government. This requirement to testify in order to maintain citizenship status expires after 10 years.
Membership in Subversive Groups: Your citizenship may be revoked if the U.S. government can prove that you joined a subversive organization within five years of becoming a naturalized citizen. Membership in such organizations is considered a violation of the oath of U.S. allegiance. Examples include the Nazi Party and Al Qaeda.
Dishonorable Military Discharge: Since you may become a naturalized U.S. citizen by virtue of serving in the U.S. military, your citizenship may be revoked if you are dishonorably discharged before serving five years. Reasons for dishonorable discharge, which must follow a general court-martial, include desertion and sexual assault.
https://immigration.findlaw.com/citizen ... oked-.html
Hey! Don't miss The Fogbow's Favourite TV Show™ starring the titular Mama June Shannon -- "Mama June: From Not To Hot -- Family Crisis!" Fri 9/8c. TVShowsAce featured Fogbow's love 5/26/20: https://bit.ly/2TNxrbS

User avatar
neonzx
Posts: 8246
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:27 am

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#8

Post by neonzx »

But the emperor has ordered it, so debate is over.
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
I have instructed Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, and he fully agrees, not to allow Hoda Muthana back into the Country!
4:05 PM - 20 Feb 2019
To which Trump replied, Fuck the law. I don't give a fuck about the law. I want my fucking money.

User avatar
Whip
Posts: 4093
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:31 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#9

Post by Whip »

bob wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:36 pm
Whip wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:30 pm
so the ISIS thing has no bearing in this?
The president and SOSOTUS have been vague -- maybe, maybe not; whatever. The clear leadership you'd expect from this administration. :roll:

I think they're waiting see how it plays in Peoria before actually defining the United States' position.
my question was more along the lines of how would she be allowed back in based on the ISIS stuff. and why is that not the issue regardless of who is talking?

User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 2788
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III
Occupation: Criminal defense attorney - I am not your lawyer, and my posts do not constitute legal advice

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#10

Post by fierceredpanda »

Whip wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:20 pm
my question was more along the lines of how would she be allowed back in based on the ISIS stuff. and why is that not the issue regardless of who is talking?
She would (or rather, should) be allowed back in and immediately taken into custody on charges of providing material support to a terrorist organization. But we in the US have a weird hang-up about terrorists, or to be more specific, Islamic terrorists. Slate had a good article about this today, where they suggested Americans seem to envision Islamic terror like an infectious disease that we must, above all else, keep off our shores. It's especially weird when no one batted an eye when our government fought tooth-and-nail to bring El Chapo Guzman here despite him having ordered the deaths of probably hundreds of people. Why is it we aren't worried about the cartel boss being subjected to our judicial system, but the very thought of treating alleged terrorists the same way is horrifying?

It's a puzzle.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton


User avatar
bob
Posts: 28423
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#11

Post by bob »

Whip wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:20 pm
my question was more along the lines of how would she be allowed back in based on the ISIS stuff. and why is that not the issue regardless of who is talking?
The president is talking to his base, who wants to hear the president say he's stripping her citizenship (based on the ISIS stuff). Which he can't do.

So some lawyer may have to deliver the bad news to the president, and the government could float the fallback position that she was never a citizen (due to her father's status) -- all to save face for the president. ("I NEVER SAID I WAS GOING TO STRIP HER CITIZENSHIP! FAKE NEWS!") This president is fond of vague statements, to avoid being pinned down on an actual position.

Or the government could quietly let it the issue drop. Which would likely mean her being arrested and tried in the federal justice system (as a U.S. citizen, not that really matters, legally).
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Dan1100
Posts: 3782
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#12

Post by Dan1100 »

scirreeve wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:22 pm
But since life actually begins at male orgasm conception, she was already a non-citizen 9 months before she was "born." :sarcasm:

User avatar
Chilidog
Posts: 10821
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#13

Post by Chilidog »

Afroyim v Rusk
....any doubt as to whether prior to the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment Congress had the power to deprive a person against his will of citizenship, once obtained, should have been removed by the unequivocal terms of the Amendment itself. It provides its own constitutional rule in language calculated completely to control the status of citizenship: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States . . . are citizens of the United States. . . ." There is no indication in these words of a fleeting citizenship, good at the moment it is acquired but subject to destruction by the Government at any time. Rather the Amendment can most reasonably be read as defining a citizenship which a citizen keeps unless he voluntarily relinquishes it. Once acquired, this Fourteenth Amendment citizenship was not to be shifted, canceled, or diluted at the will of the Federal Government, the States, or any other governmental unit.

cassandra
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:13 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#14

Post by cassandra »

The question isn't where this individual was born, but rather was she subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States at the time of her birth (the Fourteenth Amendment, Section One) She was born about two months after her father's diplomatic assignment was terminated. Was her father still entitled to immunity (and if so, she was not a US citizen at birth).

The answer is a factual one: was her birth within or beyond "a reasonable period" that formerly accredited diplomats and their families have to leave the country of assignment? The Supreme Couirt held that, under the circumstances of one case, five months was within that "reasonable" period. DUPONT v. PICHON, 4 U.S. 321 (1805)

We don't have enough facts to even take a semi-reasonable guess. But it seems to be an open question and capable of being litigated.

If it is, I suspect it won't help the government's case that our Cheeto-in-Chief made a decision, again, without considering any of the legal, constitutional, or logical frameworks such a decision ought to entail.

User avatar
Whatever4
Posts: 12811
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:36 am
Location: Mainely in the plain
Occupation: Visiting doctors.

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#15

Post by Whatever4 »

Something screwy here. According to her father in a 2015 Buzzfeed story (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/el ... an-in-isis),
The family requested BuzzFeed News not use Hoda’s last name, or the names of her mother or siblings due to concerns about their safety. In addition to the Kik conversations with Hoda, BuzzFeed News spoke at length to her father, who asked to be identified only by his first name, Mohammed.

A naturalized U.S. citizen who fled Yemen with his wife more than 20 years ago, Mohammed watched from across an ocean as his country descended into civil war. As each of his five children was born, far away from falling bombs and tribal violence, he thanked God for their lives in the United States.

:snippity:

Mohammed said that he and his wife permanently moved to the United States from Yemen before their first child was born in 1992. All of his children were born in the United States, Mohammed said, and all the members of his family are American citizens. Like many in the Hoover community, the women in his family dress modestly and wear the hijab whenever they leave their home.
It’s the same father and daughter. Is it possible he asked for asylum instead of returning to Yemen? What would that do to his status?
"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
-- Sen. King (I-ME)

User avatar
DejaMoo
Posts: 5490
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:19 pm
Occupation: Agent of ZOG

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#16

Post by DejaMoo »

cassandra wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:22 pm
The question isn't where this individual was born, but rather was she subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States at the time of her birth (the Fourteenth Amendment, Section One) She was born about two months after her father's diplomatic assignment was terminated. Was her father still entitled to immunity (and if so, she was not a US citizen at birth).

The answer is a factual one: was her birth within or beyond "a reasonable period" that formerly accredited diplomats and their families have to leave the country of assignment? The Supreme Couirt held that, under the circumstances of one case, five months was within that "reasonable" period. DUPONT v. PICHON, 4 U.S. 321 (1805)
A more recent court case defined the 'reasonable period' as thirty days. United States v. Guinand, 688 F. Supp. 774, 775–77 (D.D.C. 1988). The defendant in that case did not leave the United States within a reasonable period after his employment with the Peruvian Embassy was terminated; instead, he married a U.S. citizen and gained permanent resident status. The fact that he didn't leave caused the court to deny his motion to dismiss on the grounds of diplomatic immunity.

So yes - this case could be legally twisty.
I've heard this bull before.

User avatar
noblepa
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Bay Village, Ohio
Occupation: Network Engineer

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#17

Post by noblepa »

So, the short answer to my original question is: no, a natural born US citizen can not be stripped of his/her citizenship against their will, even if convicted of a crime.

In this case, the question then becomes: is she a natural born citizen under the fourteenth amendment? That question hinges on whether or not her father was still considered a foreign diplomat and therefore NOT "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US.

It appears that his status is a bit unclear. She does, however, have the precedent that the State Dept. accepted her proof that he was no longer a diplomat when they granted her a passport in the past.

As for the ISIS connection, perhaps she should be tried in a US court, but, if convicted, and if she is determined to be an NBC, then she can not be stripped of her citizenship. But it is not grounds to deny her re-entry.

User avatar
RTH10260
Posts: 25799
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Near the Swiss Alps

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#18

Post by RTH10260 »

Another twist from a German language news clip, they mentioned that the lady has currently no US passport. I guess that means no current passport or her passport was taken from her and is destroyed. So she would need to be able to prove that she is the person she claims to be and needs to find a way to apply for a document that would allow her to enter the US.

User avatar
DejaMoo
Posts: 5490
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:19 pm
Occupation: Agent of ZOG

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#19

Post by DejaMoo »

RTH10260 wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:52 am
Another twist from a German language news clip, they mentioned that the lady has currently no US passport. I guess that means no current passport or her passport was taken from her and is destroyed.
From her Twitter:

Image
I've heard this bull before.

User avatar
bob
Posts: 28423
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#20

Post by bob »

The "reasonable period" presents an interesting sword/shield issue: the "reasonable period" is usually used as a shield by an individual from government action ("You can't arrest me, I'm in a reasonable period beyond the end of my diplomatic mission!"). Here the government would be using it as a sword against an individual.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
DejaMoo
Posts: 5490
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:19 pm
Occupation: Agent of ZOG

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#21

Post by DejaMoo »

bob wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:38 pm
The "reasonable period" presents an interesting sword/shield issue: the "reasonable period" is usually used as a shield by an individual from government action ("You can't arrest me, I'm in a reasonable period beyond the end of my diplomatic mission!"). Here the government would be using it as a sword against an individual.
Another couple of possible arguments used by the Trump administration would be that she voluntarily relinquished her citizenship when she left the US to join the Islamic State and burned her passport; and that she has dual nationality (Yemeni citizenship through her father), and since the US has no diplomatic presence in Syria at this time and she has another country to appeal to for assistance, appeal to Yemen.

Reading a few articles on this, it appears that most Western nations do not want to repatriate their citizens who joined the Islamic State, and are using either the voluntary relinquishment or dual-nationality arguments to justify their refusals to do so. Syria doesn't want to keep them, either. Every country mistrusts these people, and think they're too dangerous to have around.
I've heard this bull before.

User avatar
bob
Posts: 28423
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#22

Post by bob »

DejaMoo wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:58 pm
Another couple of possible arguments used by the Trump administration would be that she voluntarily relinquished her citizenship when she left the US to join the Islamic State and burned her passport
That would likely be a losing argument, since relinquishing citizenship has to be affirmative, i.e., expressly renouncing it, and not merely acts inconsistent with.
that she has dual nationality (Yemeni citizenship through her father), and since the US has no diplomatic presence in Syria at this time and she has another country to appeal to for assistance, appeal to Yemen.
Also likely a losing argument, as U.S. law fully accepts dual nationality.


But, as it often is with this administration, when we try to imagine what stupid thing it'll do, it'll find a way to some even more stupid.
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
bob
Posts: 28423
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#23

Post by bob »

FOX: Pompeo rejects legal claim by ISIS wife: 'She's a non-citizen terrorist -- she's not coming back':
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, speaking to "Fox News Sunday," forcefully rejected a lawsuit filed against the Trump administration this week by the father of an Alabama woman who left the U.S. to join the Islamic State group, saying in no uncertain terms that she is a "non-citizen terrorist" who "is not coming back."

In the federal court filing, Ahmed Ali Muthana argued that his daughter, Hoda Muthana, 24, is an American citizen by birth and that the White House should recognize her citizenship and "accept Ms. Muthana and her son back into the United States and to use all available means to do so." But Pompeo countered that Muthana had deliberately endangered U.S. soldiers and would not prevail in court.

"She's a non-citizen terrorist; she has no legal basis for a claim of U.S. citizenship," Pompeo told anchor Chris Wallace. "She's not coming back to the United States to create the risk that someday she'd return to the battlefield and continue to put at risk American people, American kids, American boys and girls that were sent to help defeat ISIS -- she put them at risk, she's not a U.S. citizen, she's not coming back."

* * *

Pressed by Wallace as to the legitimacy of Muthana's claim of birthright citizenship, and whether her father's diplomatic status was the issue, Pompeo responded: "There's litigation ongoing. Here's what I can tell you: We have a strong legal basis for our claim she's not a citizen, and she's not coming back."
Pompeo can't articulate the basis for the claim, but he knows it's strong. :roll:
Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 13802
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#24

Post by Notorial Dissent »

Considering Pompeo's general lack of smarts to begin with, and the State Depts current track record on citizenship cases, I'm not betting they'll prevail. Now the question remains as to what charges she could immediately be facing the minute she steps back in to the US since I suspect she could be considered an enemy combatant being married in to ISIS and all, and I'm sure there are a few other things along the way. As I recall, one of the brides who returned to the UK, immediately collected a prison sentence. So I'm not sure how bright returning is.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
Whip
Posts: 4093
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:31 pm

Re: Pompeo says ISIS bride born in NJ is not US citizen

#25

Post by Whip »

if she actually burned her passport, is that a disavowal of citizenship? never had a passport so no idea how this stuff works. what happens if a passport get lost legitimately?

Post Reply

Return to “Current Events”