Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

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Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#51

Post by Dr. Kenneth Noisewater »

I'm just waiting for him to use the Tracy Fair theory that the 14th amendment doesn't really exist and wasn't properly ratified.

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bob
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#52

Post by bob »

Chilidog wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:58 pm
Do you know what is truly scary?

If this issue does somehow wind up back in front of SCOTUS.

We have to hope that John Roberts is the swing vote.
My prediction is the conservative wing will blink and not grant cert.
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Dan1100
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#53

Post by Dan1100 »

bob wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:12 pm
Chilidog wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:58 pm
Do you know what is truly scary?

If this issue does somehow wind up back in front of SCOTUS.

We have to hope that John Roberts is the swing vote.
My prediction is the conservative wing will blink and not grant cert.
My prediction is that the Trumpenfuhrer never make the Executive Order, whatever foolishness Graham is up to will never make it out of committee, and that Trump would even suggest such an obviously unconstitutional thing is fake news.

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much ado
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#54

Post by much ado »

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:26 pm
bob wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:12 pm
Chilidog wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:58 pm
Do you know what is truly scary?

If this issue does somehow wind up back in front of SCOTUS.

We have to hope that John Roberts is the swing vote.
My prediction is the conservative wing will blink and not grant cert.
My prediction is that the Trumpenfuhrer never make the Executive Order, whatever foolishness Graham is up to will never make it out of committee, and that Trump would even suggest such an obviously unconstitutional thing is fake news.
:yeah: I'm with Dan.

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bob
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#55

Post by bob »

My prediction is that the Trumpenfuhrer never make the Executive Order, whatever foolishness Graham is up to will never make it out of committee, and that Trump would even suggest such an obviously unconstitutional thing is fake news.
:yeah: I'm with Dan.
Or, if the past is prologue, the president will issue an executive order "to study" the issue, which is well-known swamp talk for burying the issue.
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Tarrant
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#56

Post by Tarrant »

bob wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:36 pm
My prediction is that the Trumpenfuhrer never make the Executive Order, whatever foolishness Graham is up to will never make it out of committee, and that Trump would even suggest such an obviously unconstitutional thing is fake news.
:yeah: I'm with Dan.
Or, if the past is prologue, the president will issue an executive order "to study" the issue, which is well-known swamp talk for burying the issue.
I remember way back when I took a college class in geography called “Environment and Ethics”, the professor told us to watch out for anytime someone in a position of power seemed to take your matter seriously, and then made a grandiose pronouncement that they were going to study the issue. Often even providing the funding for said study. Make it a multi-year study even. Most people then say “Good, they’re taking it seriously, this is a complicated issue, of course you want to study it” and wander off never checking back to see if anything ever got done.

And if the study actually does ever say something should be done? There’s always time for another study to get a second opinion.

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MN-Skeptic
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#57

Post by MN-Skeptic »

bob wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:49 pm
Turley was on FOX radio. (And he's briefly quoted in this Atlantic piece.)

Didn't listen, but I infer he's making the birther-esque argument about the 14th's Framer's intent.
Does "intent" matter when it comes to either the U.S. Constitution or to laws if the provision is clear, i.e. unambiguous, on its face?
MAGA - Morons Are Governing America

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dunstvangeet
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#58

Post by dunstvangeet »

Chilidog wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:58 pm
Do you know what is truly scary?

If this issue does somehow wind up back in front of SCOTUS.

We have to hope that John Roberts is the swing vote.
In order for that to happen, what would need to happen is as follows.
  1. Trump Issues Executive Order denying children of illegal immigrants their citizenship.
  2. Someone sues on the behalf of some John Doe, a newly born child of illegal immigrants (to establish standing). This case is filed in District Court
  3. District Court, using the case law of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, and Plyler v. Doe, overrules the order.
  4. Trump appeals it upto the Circuit Court of Appeals
  5. The Circuit Court of Appeals, using the very clear precedents of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark and Plyler v. Doe affirms the district court.
  6. Trump requests an en banc decision. The en banc decision is denied (as there's no real controversy).
  7. Trump appeals to the United States Supreme Court
Only then would the Supreme Court get to rided upon. And on this case, there would be no swing vote, because I don't think you get even one Justice, let along 4, that would take this case. It is not controversial that illegal immigrants are indeed subject to the Jurisdiction of the United States (both the Majority Opinion and the Dissenting Opinion in Plyler v. Doe rejected a argument that illegal immigrants are not within the jurisdiction of the United States). It would be thrown on the trash heap of all the writs that get rejected to the Supreme Court.

Literally, this EO has absolutely no chance of succeeding. You could have a court of 9 Thomas's, and there still would be 0 people on it that would vote that birthright citizenship isn't protected by the Constitution.

So, the only approach that would literally work is a Constitutional Amendment that would modify that clause of the 14th Amendment.

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bob
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#59

Post by bob »

MN-Skeptic wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:43 pm
Does "intent" matter when it comes to either the U.S. Constitution or to laws if the provision is clear, i.e. unambiguous, on its face?
"It depends."

Scalia, for example, said intent never mattered. Except for the times when it mattered -- because it conveniently supported the results he wanted.
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Volkonski
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#60

Post by Volkonski »

Ryan rejects Trump proposal to eliminate birthright citizenship

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4138 ... 4U.twitter
House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) on Tuesday blasted President Trump's stated push to eliminate birthright citizenship via executive order.

"Well, you obviously cannot do that. You cannot end birthright citizenship with an executive order," Ryan told Lexington, Ky., radio station WVLK. "We didn’t like it when Obama tried changing immigration laws via executive action, and obviously as conservatives, we believe in the Constitution."

Ryan, who is retiring at the end of his term, said an executive order would not adhere to the 14th Amendment, adding that he thinks there is a better way to address the country's "unchecked illegal immigration."
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bob
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#61

Post by bob »

dunstvangeet wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:44 pm
Only then would the Supreme Court get to rided upon. And on this case, there would be no swing vote, because I don't think you get even one Justice, let along 4, that would take this case. It is not controversial that illegal immigrants are indeed subject to the Jurisdiction of the United States (both the Majority Opinion and the Dissenting Opinion in Plyler v. Doe rejected a argument that illegal immigrants are not within the jurisdiction of the United States). It would be thrown on the trash heap of all the writs that get rejected to the Supreme Court.
Close: As with Obama's executive orders, the issue would be decided as a preliminary injunction, i.e., some district court would enjoin (or not) the executive order; some circuit court would stay (or not) the injunction; and then SCOTUS would to have vote -- by a majority (not the rule of 4) -- on the injunction application.
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voxpopuluxe
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#62

Post by voxpopuluxe »

Mr Brolin wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:48 am
Yeah, this is just another one of his content, reality and meaning free dog whistles to his base.

:snippity:

:blahblah: :torches:
It isn't merely a dog whistle. Even claiming the authority to eliminate the 14th amendment, especially when Lindsay Graham gets up and says he's introducing legislation to do the same thing, is a way of terrorizing immigrants, naturalized citizens, and people of color in general. It's the same thing he did to trans people. The same thing he does with women. Even if nothing comes of this—and it's quite likely nothing will—it's a way to bully and incite fear and most importantly try to delegitimize a group (who will then be more vulnerable to whatever attacks might follow). I feel like this is missed by a lot of people who may not belong to whatever marginalized group Trump chooses to attack. The primary goal of this kind of rhetoric isn't to "play to his base." It's to license his base's eliminationist fantasies.
“If you can float enough disinformation into circulation you will totally abolish everyone’s contact with reality, probably your own included.” — Philip K Dick

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#63

Post by Notorial Dissent »

A question. If the fallacy/fantasy/theory that illegals ARE NOT subject to the "jurisdiction thereof" then how would the gov't have the authority/power to expel/remove/jail them? If they are not subject, then how can any legal action be taken?
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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DaveMuckey
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#64

Post by DaveMuckey »

I'm having a deja vu. Please make it stop.

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DaveMuckey
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#65

Post by DaveMuckey »

Amendment 14, section 5:

"5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

It seems to me that Wonder Boy has no Constitutional grounds to pull off anything like what he's suggesting.

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Azastan
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#66

Post by Azastan »

I'm pointing the finger at Kanye West for bringing up the 14th Amendment.

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voxpopuluxe
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#67

Post by voxpopuluxe »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:25 pm
A question. If the fallacy/fantasy/theory that illegals ARE NOT subject to the "jurisdiction thereof" then how would the gov't have the authority/power to expel/remove/jail them? If they are not subject, then how can any legal action be taken?
I’m thinking that licensing extralegal action is precisely the point here.
“If you can float enough disinformation into circulation you will totally abolish everyone’s contact with reality, probably your own included.” — Philip K Dick

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Chilidog
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#68

Post by Chilidog »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:25 pm
A question. If the fallacy/fantasy/theory that illegals ARE NOT subject to the "jurisdiction thereof" then how would the gov't have the authority/power to expel/remove/jail them? If they are not subject, then how can any legal action be taken?
Because... "Double Secret Jurisdiction"

<\Dean Wermer>

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bob
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#69

Post by bob »

voxpopuluxe wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:34 pm
Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:25 pm
A question. If the fallacy/fantasy/theory that illegals ARE NOT subject to the "jurisdiction thereof" then how would the gov't have the authority/power to expel/remove/jail them? If they are not subject, then how can any legal action be taken?
I’m thinking that licensing extralegal action is precisely the point here.
After the last election, there already were random citizens "demanding papers" from those who didn't "look American"; such incidents will likely increase now.
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dunstvangeet
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#70

Post by dunstvangeet »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:25 pm
A question. If the fallacy/fantasy/theory that illegals ARE NOT subject to the "jurisdiction thereof" then how would the gov't have the authority/power to expel/remove/jail them? If they are not subject, then how can any legal action be taken?
They have the ability to expel, remove, and jail them, just as they can do with diplomats (who are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States). What they do not have the authority to do is try and convict them of a crime. Basically, declaring Illegal Immigrants to not be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States (which is the only way that they'd be able to even attempt this without a Constitutional Amendment) would give them immunity to any crime that they committed. The only recourse that the United States would have would be to deport them from the territory.

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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#71

Post by RTH10260 »

Foggy wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:59 am
Two words:

Wong Kim Ark
:boxing:
Speculative question: what are the chances that a SCOTUS in its current setup would review the Wong Kim Ark descision if this administration were to challenge citizenship by birth right thru the courts?

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bob
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#72

Post by bob »

RTH10260 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:15 pm
Foggy wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:59 am
Two words:

Wong Kim Ark
:boxing:
Speculative question: what are the chances that a SCOTUS in its current setup would review the Wong Kim Ark descision if this administration were to challenge citizenship by birth right thru the courts?
Very low, because it is unlikely ever to land on SCOTUS' doorstep (and, if via a discretionary appeal, that SCOTUS would agree to hear the case).
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GreatGrey
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#73

Post by GreatGrey »

I am not "someone upthread".
Trump needs to be smashed into some kind of inedible orange pâté.

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Northland10
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#74

Post by Northland10 »

TollandRCR wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:05 pm
Stephen Miller is the llikely author of this. Trump has np ideas.
Agreed. I have thought that Trump's advisor who supposedly said he could do this was Miller. The only problem with this as election red meat is that it says he does not need Congress. Not a good way of retaining GOP control. Saying you need a who will deal with it would be more helpful.

Miller may have suggested the EO route for after the election and Trump babbled the wrong thing.
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DrIrvingFinegarten
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Re: Trump to eliminate birthright citizenship

#75

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten »

Does what the people who wrote the 14th Amendment intended matter?


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