SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans (HATJ & RKB)

boots
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2026

Post by boots »

NotaPerson wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:33 pm
Slicester wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:03 pm Prosecutor tried to then quote things from the Heather supplied information that they previously objected to.
Elbow counsel for Heather objected to the prosecutor trying to use information that was objected to (sustained)
If this is true, it really pisses me off. That had to look bad to the jury.
That particular issue wouldn't look good for the prosecution. But, I for some reason am not too concerned about the outcome. First, because whether or not these two loons get put away (I understand it is just HATJ on trial this time around), there will be plenty of Druannas and Heathers running around the inter webs looking to rip people off by selling their new age sovcit fairy dust. Secondly, I think this case is such a slam dunk that the prosecution could probably send in one of those wind-up monkeys playing the cymbals and still win it.

That Backpage "journalist" seems like someone who has a Facebook page and too much time on their hands. It's mostly right-wing-ish stuff posted there, and this looks to be the only story that site has stuck with for any length of time recently. And anyone who can't tell thatHATJ is either a batguano crazy or a con (or maybe both) has a seriously defective bullshit detector.


BackRoom_Knox
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2027

Post by BackRoom_Knox »

I admit some following this case are lu lu, admittedly, but they mean well. Regardless of the outcome of this case.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2028

Post by BackRoom_Knox »

Is anyone here following the court case from INSIDE the courtroom? If so, I would like to meet you for lunch and interview you on or off the record. Looking for those who think she is guilty.


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TheNewSaint
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2029

Post by TheNewSaint »

NotaPerson wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:33 pm If this is true, it really pisses me off. That had to look bad to the jury.
Probably not a big deal. Objections happen. Heather files so much bullshit it's hard to keep straight.


This bramble need not be traversed.
anotherparadox
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2030

Post by anotherparadox »

If they are acquitted, they still won't have won.

1. No one will have access to their "secret accounts" as Heather promised

2. Randall will most likely be sued by USAA for the money he stole and he won't have a new RV or pickup - so he'll spend the rest of his days paying that debt off or having his credit in the ditch to where he can't buy anything on credit.

I don't see an acquittal and there's no way to know how the trial is really going without being there because there's no one that is reliably reporting anything.


Edit: Not that it matters much but I've had one positive response from BackRoomKnox regarding his post when I questioned why she didn't call any witnesses. He agrees her story is full of holes.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2031

Post by BackRoom_Knox »

I think some of you are missing the big picture. Even if the Defendants are convicted, which is very possible, the Federal Reserve security protocols have huge serious issues. Terrorism related issues. The ACH has a two day window. Now it appears that window is one day for some accounts and will go to one day for all. This appears to be the Defendants start of "Clean Up."

Does anyone admit 300,000 people accessed this scheme or "scam," as some would put it?

Does anyone admit the Federal Reserve has security protocol issues?

Did you know that the Federal Reserve had 0 losses from these events, however corporations are out cash and they are highly affected?

Would anyone admit that this is a problem in terms of what real terrorists could do to our banking system using the federal reserve?

Can you imagine ACH being shut off for days? What would that be like?

The prosecution could sway me back to believing that the Defendants are bad people. As the judge would say its not over till its over. So we will see what happens tomorrow. I do believe Beane will be fodder.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2032

Post by BigSkip »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm I think some of you are missing the big picture. Even if the Defendants are convicted, which is very possible, the Federal Reserve security protocols have huge serious issues. Terrorism related issues. The ACH has a two day window. Now it appears that window is one day for some accounts and will go to one day for all. This appears to be the Defendants start of "Clean Up."

Does anyone admit 300,000 people accessed this scheme or "scam," as some would put it
?

Does anyone admit the Federal Reserve has security protocol issues?

Did you know that the Federal Reserve had 0 losses from these events, however corporations are out cash and they are highly affected?

Would anyone admit that this is a problem in terms of what real terrorists could do to our banking system using the federal reserve?

Can you imagine ACH being shut off for days? What would that be like?

The prosecution could sway me back to believing that the Defendants are bad people. As the judge would say its not over till its over. So we will see what happens tomorrow. I do believe Beane will be fodder.
FWIW there were 300,000 attempted transactions. That does not mean 300,000 people attempted this scam as most of these nuts tried multiple times.

Anyone reading your Facebook page can see easily see why no one should take anything you say seriously.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2033

Post by kate520 »

Gently, folks. Gently.


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boots
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2034

Post by boots »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm I think some of you are missing the big picture. Even if the Defendants are convicted, which is very possible, the Federal Reserve security protocols have huge serious issues. Terrorism related issues. The ACH has a two day window. Now it appears that window is one day for some accounts and will go to one day for all. This appears to be the Defendants start of "Clean Up."

Does anyone admit 300,000 people accessed this scheme or "scam," as some would put it?

:snippity: :snippity:


anotherparadox
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2035

Post by anotherparadox »

They have already fixed some of these issues and many vendors and banks are now aware of people trying to pay their bills this way, so I don't think you'll see too many more cases.

The problem really was with USAA and their policy of allowing account holders to withdraw funds before they cleared. I get paid by customers from around the country and my bank holds the checks/and or wire transfers for 5 days before I can access the funds. Most banks have this type of policy.

Some of Heathers followers had checks printed up using Federal Reserve routing numbers and their SSN's for the account and there was a pair arrested in your neighborhood (I can't remember the name of the town but it's in Tennessee) for buying a bunch of items using those checks.


BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm I think some of you are missing the big picture. Even if the Defendants are convicted, which is very possible, the Federal Reserve security protocols have huge serious issues. Terrorism related issues. The ACH has a two day window. Now it appears that window is one day for some accounts and will go to one day for all. This appears to be the Defendants start of "Clean Up."

Does anyone admit 300,000 people accessed this scheme or "scam," as some would put it?

Does anyone admit the Federal Reserve has security protocol issues?

Did you know that the Federal Reserve had 0 losses from these events, however corporations are out cash and they are highly affected?

Would anyone admit that this is a problem in terms of what real terrorists could do to our banking system using the federal reserve?

Can you imagine ACH being shut off for days? What would that be like?

The prosecution could sway me back to believing that the Defendants are bad people. As the judge would say its not over till its over. So we will see what happens tomorrow. I do believe Beane will be fodder.


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Mikedunford
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2036

Post by Mikedunford »

anotherparadox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:20 pm The problem really was with USAA and their policy of allowing account holders to withdraw funds before they cleared. I get paid by customers from around the country and my bank holds the checks/and or wire transfers for 5 days before I can access the funds. Most banks have this type of policy.
This, except only kinda.

There are special circumstances that apply to USAA that lower their overall risk from fraud. Also, it's not a policy that applies to all accounts or all customers. Randy had immediate availability because he'd banked with them, trouble free, for a considerable time.

That said, your basic point is right on the money. This isn't about Fed Reserve security breaches or loopholes. It's about people exploiting the loophole that banks permit to exist because they are balancing their risk exposure against customer satisfaction.


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NotaPerson
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2037

Post by NotaPerson »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm
Does anyone admit the Federal Reserve has security protocol issues?
:snippity:
I do believe Beane will be fodder.
I seriously doubt this case presents any serious security issue. Remember, even if Randy and Heather get acquitted (or had never gotten arrested in the first place), they still will not have walked away with their millions of dollars, or even that luxury RV. The cash never transferred in the first place - it was just a temporary credit in Randy's account. Randy tried to take advantage and it came back to bite him the ass very badly. There are others here more knowledgeable about such stuff, and they have explained it here in the past. Hopefully they will do so again.

What this case is about, essentially, is a cult. Of course, they would laugh off such an accusation. But it's a word that fits them pretty well. For some reason, there are people who admire Heather and practically take her word to be gospel. Why? Maybe because she has repeatedly promised them billions of dollars in cash that supposedly resides in accounts that magically appeared for us when we were born. She is either mentally ill, a scam artist, or somewhere in-between. Take your pic.

And I totally agree with you that Beane will be fodder.

I was one of the guys on Facebook, BTW. :wave:


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nancydrew
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2038

Post by nancydrew »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm I think some of you are missing the big picture. Even if the Defendants are convicted, which is very possible, the Federal Reserve security protocols have huge serious issues. Terrorism related issues. The ACH has a two day window. Now it appears that window is one day for some accounts and will go to one day for all. This appears to be the Defendants start of "Clean Up."

Does anyone admit 300,000 people accessed this scheme or "scam," as some would put it?

Does anyone admit the Federal Reserve has security protocol issues?

Did you know that the Federal Reserve had 0 losses from these events, however corporations are out cash and they are highly affected?

Would anyone admit that this is a problem in terms of what real terrorists could do to our banking system using the federal reserve?

Can you imagine ACH being shut off for days? What would that be like?

The prosecution could sway me back to believing that the Defendants are bad people. As the judge would say its not over till its over. So we will see what happens tomorrow. I do believe Beane will be fodder.
You need to actually speak to someone who understands accounting, banking and ACH protocol. The ones you’re talking to at the trial can barely balance their checks books. These individuals think that anything is proof, that backs their theory.

Try checking out Virgo Triad’s channel on YouTube, she did a great series on debunking every aspect of their theories.

Other than USAA, financial institutions didn’t take a large hits nor did the FRB. The problem in the beginning was it was taking the FRB so long to reject the transaction, and return it to the originator bank/vender. Sometimes as long as 3-4 weeks. The longer the payments stuck it gave credence to their theory. Once those initial transaction started being rejected and returned, it didn’t take long for ACH and many venders to fix the problem. All they did was remove any FRB routing number or government agency routing numbers from their routing number data base, this their system would neither recognize or process a transaction should the user try to put one in.

Most loses occurred from what I can tell to utilitity companies. Those I can tell you just from looking at it was lack of accounting on the companies side. There may have been some cars released, but usually state law covers those situations, when the lender releases they no longer have any security for their loan, or the loan was paid off fraudulently, they have a court system to correct those errors.

If you wonder why HATJ and RKB are on trial is because they are the only ones that were successful temporarily, and got the $ transferred to his private account, and then transferred out from there. The Harvey Dent they took about, never got any money that he could spend. Barclays froze his account before he accessed the $ and thus Dent didn’t get any $ and the institution didn’t lose and money.

If anyone made money on this recycled scal it was the financial institutions that charged for returned check fees and late charges.


For crooks who masquerade as patriots, the attraction of an audience that already believes in the wildest conspiracy theories is just too good to pass up.
boots
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2039

Post by boots »

I don't believe there is any great systemic risk because of Randy and Heather's actions, or the systems in place which actually worked to prevent them from getting away with anything. But that is just a side issue to the trial, which is only about whether Heather broke the law. I don't understand how one can listen to her story and think anything else. Who cares whether one agrees with the label of "sovereign citizen". Call her what you will if that label bothers you. She isn't charged with being a "sovereign citizen" but with breaking an actual law. To think she hasn't done that, one would have to buy into age-old sovereign citizen (there, I said it) myths about straw man accounts, without having any evidence they exist.

Or do you, Backroom? Are you the one with the secret knowledge? If so, tell us! I've asked several sovcits over the years to provide proof of that one.


nancydrew
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2040

Post by nancydrew »

I was ecstatic when these dunderheads came up with the lower/lessor bank theory. With the FRB and government agency routing numbers on lock down, I knew especially with the 9/15 roll of same day clearance, that those transactions would be reversed/returned/rejected at the speed of light!

Course their new idea is to order paper checks with the routing number of their choice, and think that will work better than ACH! HD found it it didn’t work out so well for him, and ended up with his credit union ending their relationship with him. If I remember correctly, he got cash, but had $ from GoFundMe me in transit. His credit union used that $ to cover the loss, plus fees, and used the balance to a credit card.


For crooks who masquerade as patriots, the attraction of an audience that already believes in the wildest conspiracy theories is just too good to pass up.
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2041

Post by Judge Roy Bean »

NotaPerson wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:35 pm :snippity:
What this case is about, essentially, is a cult.
:yeah:


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2042

Post by JohnPCapitalist »

NotaPerson wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:35 pm
BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm
Does anyone admit the Federal Reserve has security protocol issues?
:snippity:
I do believe Beane will be fodder.
What this case is about, essentially, is a cult. Of course, they would laugh off such an accusation. But it's a word that fits them pretty well. For some reason, there are people who admire Heather and practically take her word to be gospel. Why? Maybe because she has repeatedly promised them billions of dollars in cash that supposedly resides in accounts that magically appeared for us when we were born. She is either mentally ill, a scam artist, or somewhere in-between. Take your pic.
Yes, it is a cult. If you go back and map this against criteria in Margaret Singer's 1995 classic "Cults in our Midst," or any other bit of reputable scholarship, that's exactly what you find.
  • A doctrine or dogma built on nonsensical beliefs that would be hard to continue to believe in because they are in conflict with science and widely held beliefs, or because they promise super powers that have never been seen before. Often these beliefs are supposedly rediscovering "lost knowledge of the ancients" or something similar. The idea that the government would sit on $10 million per US citizen ($3,200 trillion, more than the entire global GDP by nearly two orders of magnitude) without putting that money to work to pay off the national debt or to do something to grow the economy is preposterous on its face.
  • An organization that is created by a charismatic leader (not necessarily slick but capable of manipulating followers), and that is run for the benefit of leadership, not for the members or the world at large. Heather certainly qualifies: she's able to get followers like Randy Beane to hang on her every word. And she certainly ran the OPPT scam for her own benefit; those foolish enough to actually put money in saw absolutely nothing while paying for a pretty nice vacation for those involved.
  • An organization that controls lives of members and punishes them for questioning doctrine and for being disloyal, including severe shunning of former members and those out of favor with leadership. While Heather doesn't tell followers what to wear or make them chant in incense filled rooms, there's a lot of pressure on members to support while giving money they can ill afford to spend. And her fans are at the ready to attack anyone who dares to voice a dissenting or doubtful thought.
  • Adherents who have internalized the cult's thought control mechanisms to suppress their own doubts and to avoid material that would disconfirm any part of the dogma or criticize the group.
    In other words, adherents have achieved the Orwellian ability to "crimestop."
I'm in touch with a prominent scholar of religion who is well-known for his study of cults, and he's devoting a significant amount of time studying the Sovereign Citizen movement and related political groups. I'm hoping to get an interview done with him in the next couple weeks, and will post the SovCit relevant stuff here.


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NotaPerson
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2043

Post by NotaPerson »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:59 pm I do believe Beane will be fodder.
BackRoom, if you're still reading, you've now seen a few of us referring to "strawman accounts" that are secretly set up in our name at birth. This is an important concept to understand, if you want to grasp the utter absurdity of Heather and her followers.

It comes in various flavors, but the basic idea is that the "global elite" (i.e., Jewish Bankers, the Cabal, the Illuminati, and so on) invested money in each of us when we were born. Our birth certificates are a receipt of that transaction. The global elite invest because we pay them interest (in the form of taxes, for example) as we grow up and go to work. We become "debt slaves," as they like to say. So this means that for each of us there are millions (even billions) of dollars in secret accounts that bear our names.

And see, Heather is one of MANY who say they have figured out how to save mankind by allowing everyone to simply access these accounts.

Sounds insane, right? That's because it's fucking insane, dude.


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GlimDropper
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2044

Post by GlimDropper »

BackRoom_Knox, first off kudos for coming here, you are making an effort to see more sides than Heather's fan club are showing you and I respect you for it.

As others have previously remarked Heather and Randy did not reveal some dangerous flaw in our banking system but rather a manageable flaw. The debts Randy "paid" with his phantom funds remain owed, he didn't get his $80+K pickup truck and he only owns his RV on paper, even if for some reason he gets acquitted he'll never drive it a single mile because he never paid for it, he only appeared to for long enough to sign some paperwork but not long enough to actually drive off in the thing.

For more background on how the ACH system works please note this series of blog posts. They explain the ACH system from the perspective of a software engineer who writes code to interface with that system. Please note the timelines they describe for transactions to clear as apposed to "provisional credits," e.g. if you were to buy something on Amazon, pay for it via a check (ACH) and pay for next day shipping. You would actually be receiving the product before the check (ACH) would clear. In base numbers I suspect that Amazon was the largest victim of Heather, Randy and Harvey (Dent) Denson's (ACH) check kiting schemes, they were also one of the fastest to put measures in place to mitigate their risk while still providing as much near instant gratification for their customers as they could.

As to the term "sovereign citizen," yes it is a misnomer but Heather, Randy and their fan club are outlying examples of the term. Yea, they tend towards the rainbows and moonbeams end of the spectrum but Heather's beliefs (Randy is pretty much just a follower) are textbook sovcit. We can provide clarification on the point and as many examples as you wish to prove it. Not that proving they are sovcits means much in the greater scheme of the many mush brained conspiracy theories these people traffic in.

Thank you for covering this trial, it is (obviously) of interest here and i appreciate additional perspectives. That and until BZ publishes the trial transcripts you are our best hope for accurate and not entirely cult like reporting on the daily goings on.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2045

Post by BackRoom_Knox »

Many of you are discussing that Federal Reserve has no security Issues.

The Federal Reserve Senior Vice President and Chief Investigator said the incidents are still occurring as of his testimony, under oath, this past Friday.

He admitted the system was built with speed first, not security.

He said this happened 5 years ago as well.

I heard it out of the horses mouth.

What happens next time when it is millions of computer bots accessing the systems....
and your check is not deposited in your accounts, you are not able to get gas, no trucks can deliver food to the market, because all federal reserve banks cut off the ACH system to your banks and others?

Worst case scenario but it's possible, as Mr. Beane had his hands on a 90 truck and an RV.

You all need to get a hold of the transcripts and you will see for yourself.

So how am I supposed to get on board with everything else you say? I am stating facts. You are going for opinion.

P.S. The two day hold is now 1 day ......remember speed of moving massive amounts of cash, not security.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2046

Post by boots »

Backroom - Well, not that it is a thread jack, because the subject is sort of related, but you're kind of talking about the periphery. Most of us here are discussing a trial of an individual, HATJ, who happens to be NUTS. You come in saying we're missing the point because the Federal Reserve could be compromised. Ok, fine. Not really directly what we're discussing, but having read enough about the ACH issues with this type of con, I personally am not that concerned about it. How about you comment on what we're talking about here, the trial? Your posts on your Facebook page indicate you are "drinking the kool aid" and now think that HATJ is actually making sense. Why so? And how so? (How the heck is that even possible?).


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2047

Post by BackRoom_Knox »

Thank you @gilmdropper. I went in open arms as well. They admitted they were a lil lu lu and I said they were the same. I too would like to know the truth.

There are hols in the story, as I have written about. So its not a perfect story. I want to give my opinion on guilty or innocent but it wont be accurate till its all over.

There are rebuttal witnesses now.

Question, is being gullable intent?

I believe Heather will be let off scott free, and if not scott free probation....

Mr. Beane is "fodder" and he has other issues....we may find out more tomorrow.... so I'm not sure what would happen to him.....

I will say he is more likely to be convicted.... but the fed reserve VP said good people got some money out.....

In a criminal case, doubt means innocent in a criminal trial.

But it can go either way in my opinion.... and you know opinions....I have been wrong before and I will be wrong again.


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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2048

Post by NotaPerson »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:12 pm What happens next time when it is millions of computer bots accessing the systems....
and your check is not deposited in your accounts, you are not able to get gas, no trucks can deliver food to the market, because all federal reserve banks cut off the ACH system to your banks and others?
I honestly do not know. I won't pretend to know everything. My gut feeling is that the problem will get resolved quickly enough. Maybe a couple of hours. A day. Or two days. It may be pretty bad and scare the hell out of a lot of people. But I choose to believe we'll get through it. Because I have no clear reason to think otherwise.

I guess you are just interested in learning more about this perceived "glitch" in the system than the cult aspects (which is obviously our fascination here). That's cool. Maybe you're onto something, maybe you're not. But it doesn't change the fact that Heather is a cult leader encouraging people to access money that doesn't belong to them.


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BackRoom_Knox
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2049

Post by BackRoom_Knox »

Oh I just saw the title!! Not trying to thread jack.....
please erase my posts or move them or let me know what to do to fix.

Sorry all. I thought I was responding to a thread about this trial.

Ill go to another thread.


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Mikedunford
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Re: SovCit Financial Frauds & Related Shenanigans

#2050

Post by Mikedunford »

BackRoom_Knox wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:12 pm Many of you are discussing that Federal Reserve has no security Issues.

The Federal Reserve Senior Vice President and Chief Investigator said the incidents are still occurring as of his testimony, under oath, this past Friday.
What we are saying is that those two statements - the lack of Federal Reserve security issue and the fact that incidents are still occurring - are compatible. They can both be true.

That's because the incidents aren't due to a security issue at the Federal Reserve. They're due to decisions to accept a certain amount of risk that have been made by the banks and other recipients of ACH funds.

Let's take Amazon as an example. Amazon's risk management people know that there is a chance that they will lose some money to fraud if they ship books before the ACH process is complete and their receipt of the funds is confirmed. But they also know that they will lose some money to other retailers (including brick-and-mortar) if they don't ship immediately. They've probably decided that their total risk from fraud is less than their risk exposure from slowing shipment, so they've been shipping quickly. (And, of course, they're going to continue to do what they can to reduce the risk from fraud.)

In the case of Randy's USAA account, I detailed what I think happened somewhere in this thread a while back. (Basically, I don't think the bank's internal software was setup to question transfers from one USAA account to another of the same member's accounts.) That's probably been fixed by now, and in any event was an issue on USAA's part, not the Federal Reserve.

In other words, while you're right that there are problems, you're misidentifying where the problems are.


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