Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

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DejaMoo
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5076 by DejaMoo » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:16 pm

Pamster wrote:Yeah, I remember the original Flat Earth Society site and, like you, had always assumed it was satire. And if it wasn't, back then it was insignificant. It's rather alarming to me that these formerly fringe belief systems are becoming so widespread and mainstreamed. I'm considering suing Al Gore for inventing the internet in the first place; anybody wanna join in a class action suit? ;)


The original Flat Earth Society was very, very serious. It was created by a Flat Earth True Believer. A good many people in the skeptical movement made his acquaintance. They said he was a perfectly nice guy, but this was his fixation.

I've noticed that about most cranks. They are not so deranged as to be incapable of functioning in society. They hold jobs, are often married, and are reasonable and rational -- except for the ONE thing they are completely unhinged about. Whatever it is, they buy it into it heart and soul, and you just can't persuade them otherwise. You can't really call them crazy when they're obviously functional. Selectively delusional seems a better description.

Since these people are otherwise normal and functional, once they start talking on the subject of their obsession, some people may assume it's credible, because the person promoting certainly appears to be so.



Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5077 by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:33 pm

That's really interesting. When I first saw the site years ago, I would have bet that it was satire. But the internet was considerably younger then.

Out of curiousity, is this the relevant law regarding this?

https://www.treasury.gov/about/organiza ... rafts.aspx



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Techno Luddite
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5078 by Techno Luddite » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:20 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckBJXGy7mOI

With people like this guy out there, bad clients are easy to find.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5079 by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:13 pm

Who's that guy?



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Techno Luddite
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5080 by Techno Luddite » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:35 pm

Pamster wrote:Who's that guy?


That is Wagener. There's been stuff written on the forum before. He is a Santa Barbara-area and runs a youtube channel as well as a local public access tv show.

It's not really libertarian content on his youtube channel, but more space cadet pseudolegal in nature. Lately he has been promoting a recent plague infecting the local courts - the idea that one can have a non-lawyer speak for them in court if they claim to be an ADA Advocate. So these people, with no qualifications in medicine or law or counseling or anything which would be necessary according to logic - call themselves "ADA Advocates" and show up in court for people. Sometimes the judge just notes it on the record and in varying degrees allows them to exist in the courtroom. Sometimes they are told to sit down & shut up. Which of course is just tyranny! :crying: :brickwallsmall: :shock:

Usually the "Advocate" will claim that the party they are there with has an "invisible disability". Of course this is not based on any actual medical or legal finding to that effect.

I first heard of this guy 3 years ago when a supremely nutty lawyer told me about him, and was upset that he wouldn't interview her. Or something.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5081 by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:28 am

Weren't some people doing that ADA Advocate thing (or trying to) with one of the Bundy Bunch trials? I seem to recall something like that, but I'm old and drink a bit so my memory is shot. That must be a tiresome and frustrating experience for the judges involved.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5082 by Techno Luddite » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:34 am

Pamster wrote:Weren't some people doing that ADA Advocate thing (or trying to) with one of the Bundy Bunch trials? I seem to recall something like that, but I'm old and drink a bit so my memory is shot. That must be a tiresome and frustrating experience for the judges involved.


I am not aware of that, but every other form of crazy has been employed in the Bundy trials, so I am not a bit surprised if that turns out to be accurate.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5083 by Pompeed » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:34 am

Pamster wrote:This is the guy that's been pushing this with a rather remarkable degree of success among his followers. He's got them convinced that when these bank ACHs get charged back to keep submitting them, racking up fees and penalties, along with felony bank fraud charges. I just saw a woman over there, a single mother that's in foreclosure, and has already had a bunch of these transactions returned yet vows to keep trying and submitting them because she just can't be a "slave" anymore. I just can't wrap my brain around this kind of pants-on-head stupidity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-5vEKZpqNo&t=402s




There's a collection of these thieves, cheats and shysters.

There are new players on the block.

That one in the video is Harvey Dent. He has a collection of videos up. It's a shame he's reproduced. Felony record. Tried to buy a $58K car from a dealer in California with a promissory note. Admits he was lucky he was not arrested.

Another is a Laura A. Fox. Of Colorado Springs. The part of her history which can be verified is "colorful" let us say. What she says about her back ground is entirely different. She's got a daughter and a side kick shill working for her named Christin Alexa Herstand whose hokum and palaver of excuses as to why all of the transactions reverse outshines even what Fox says. Fox has now announced that she is going into the business of "lecturing" on SovCit transactions all over the US. It's unclear whether she is leaving the practice of curing everything from cancer to ingrown toenails to impacted wisdom teeth with her Tarot card readings. She worships Dent, Tellinger, Druanna and others of the SCMP cult who have been successful in separating people from their money.

Dent and Fox especially are flogging the use of Fed Reserve routing numbers plus SS numbers as account numbers as means to access the bizillions of dollars in the birth certificate accounts at the Fed to pay bills for everything from credit card accounts to mortgage balances and even buy $90K Tesla cars.

The employees at the Fed Reserve banks have been drowning in calls from angry people when their ACH "payments" get reversed because they have been assured by these shysters of success. PayPal has been inundated with attempts to link their PayPal accounts to their (fictitious) Fed accounts so they can move money to their PayPal accounts to buy things.

The results of the attempts to use the ACH system have been, shall we say, disappointing at best and expensive at worst. I would not be surprised if some who have tried to defraud municipalities and counties and states of fines and taxes owed don't go after people criminally.

The shysters selling the templates and the downloads and the books and the telephone consultations are all thieves. And the people who are employing them for their expertise are all thieves wanting something for nothing too. Which only goes to prove: there's no honour amongst thieves!

I used to feel sorry for those wearing their underwear on their heads. No longer. Sympathy is in short supply and valuable. Not to be wasted on the willfully stupid.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5084 by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:54 am

I don't have much sympathy for any of them either. It's possible, if difficult, for me to feel some compassion for the painfully stupid, but the naked greed and lack of ethics these people shamelessly display puts me right off. What astonishes me is that anybody could watch any of this Harvey Dent fellow's videos and think, "This guy sounds reasonable and credible enough to take financial advice from."



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5085 by Pompeed » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:00 am

Pamster wrote:I don't have much sympathy for any of them either. It's possible, if difficult, for me to feel some compassion for the painfully stupid, but the naked greed and lack of ethics these people shamelessly display puts me right off. What astonishes me is that anybody could watch any of this Harvey Dent fellow's videos and think, "This guy sounds reasonable and credible enough to take financial advice from."



I keep asking others who have seen Fox and Dent and a couple of the others: Where do these people come from? Are they bred like animals? Hatched out of eggs on some uninhabited island from which they spread out? And their followers: also hatched out of eggs somewhere such that they are the witless and easily gulled and gullible fools one could never even imagine can survive long enough to learn to tie their shoes?

Where do these creatures come from ?

And besides the greed which is evident in the cheats and the followers of cheaters, comes the big hammer which has an adverse impact on the rest of us: these cretins who have no ability to sort reality from fiction show up at polls and vote. :madguy:



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5086 by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:30 am

Yes. That's what really frightens me. Where do we go as a country when half the population lives in an entirely different and delusional reality? How do you come back from that?
People talk about how we need better education, but how do you educate people who have open contempt for the very concept of education?



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5087 by BigSkip » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:39 am

Anyone ever watch LivePD on A&E? They had a sovereign citizen a few weeks ago who was a passenger in a car. He chirped a lot but was sent on his way while the driver was arrested. Tonight they had another who refused to provide his license at a stop. End result was him pulled out of the car and arrested.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5088 by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:48 am

This will always be my favorite SovCit video. Never fails to bring a smile to my face. P. Barnes is a national treasure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebt0l8s3aMQ



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5089 by Dan1100 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:11 am

Pamster wrote:Yes. That's what really frightens me. Where do we go as a country when half the population lives in an entirely different and delusional reality? How do you come back from that?
People talk about how we need better education, but how do you educate people who have open contempt for the very concept of education?


It's not half or even close to half.

A little less than 50% even voted for Trump. Maybe 20% or so of Trump voters are straight up hate the @#$!$@ black and brown people racists. They suck, but they aren't delusional. Another 20% or so of Trump voters are just cheap bastards who resent paying their taxes. They also suck, but also aren't delusional. Maybe 20% are actual intellectual conservatives. They are delusional, but they aren't the ones you mean.

So you are left with at most 40% of Trump voters/20% of the population who are "Obama is a Muslim", "Obama is coming for your guns", "Sharia law is coming", "Child molesters at the Pizza parlor" delusional. That's not good, but it also isn't half. Even among those wackadoodles, only a small percentage are screwed up enough to believe the Sovereign Citizen/FEMA camps at the Walmarts level nuttiness.


"Let's say you're on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, 'I forgot armed robbery was illegal.' "

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5090 by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:29 am

Yes, I realize that nationwide it's probably about a third that are stupid, crazy, or hateful or some combination thereof. But I live in Texas. I'd be willing to bet that it's close to half in this state.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5091 by pipistrelle » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:19 am

Pamster wrote:I don't have much sympathy for any of them either. It's possible, if difficult, for me to feel some compassion for the painfully stupid, but the naked greed and lack of ethics these people shamelessly display puts me right off. What astonishes me is that anybody could watch any of this Harvey Dent fellow's videos and think, "This guy sounds reasonable and credible enough to take financial advice from."


Same people who watch the "but wait . . . there's more!" TV commercials and think they're getting a miracle kitchen device.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5092 by Hercule Parrot » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:25 am

GlimDropper wrote:My friend, ever try to nail jello to a tree during a hurricane? Cause that's sorta what it's like to make a rational, orderly assessment of sovcit (and quasi sovcit) thought processes. Hell, it's half the fun, you need to be part cultural anthropologist and part aberrant psychologist. First step, abandon any notion that their ideas cohere in a logical sense then start looking for patterns, "chunks of ideas" if you will and see how different groups or people use those same chunks to form more or less equally wrong notions but in new and (marginally) innovative ways.


The concept of evolution & natural selection seems to work very well here. And, also too, internet-blaming.

Every sovcit journey starts with a vaguely dissatisfied débutante. They're not happy with their life, their achievements, family & work etc. They don't feel they're getting what they deserve, whether that's material wealth, social status or respect. What little they have managed to achieve, they fear will be taken from them. Clearly they are not responsible for the disappointments and failures of their life. So it must be someone else's fault - the game is rigged against them.

Not long ago, someone like this wouldn't travel far from their home area. They would act out their resentment through domestic abuse, bar-room fights or crazy letters to the local paper. They might internalise their feelings and become depressive or alcoholic, maybe join a local Klan or mistreat animals. The essential point is their isolation - their miserable, nasty existence is largely unconnected to others, like a little hotspot of mutated Ebola, deep in an African forest.

And now comes the internet. Suddenly our resentful John Doe is in touch with countless others who share his sense of grievance. He's not alone any more, he feels reinforced and validated by this vast peer group. They agree with all of his complaints, and feed him many more. CPS is a feminist child-stealing conspiracy, chemtrails are sedating us before the Chinese army takes control, those damned Jews have their sticky fingers in everything etc. How can it be a crime to beat your own wife, like the Bible says you should? Society, law, government and politics - it's all about keeping us down and denying us our due rights.

Like Glimdropper says, the arguments and theories which arise from this are nearly always re-combinations of "chunks of idea". Richard Dawkins called these "memes", defined as an idea, behaviour, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture - "Proponents theorize that memes are a viral phenomenon that may evolve by natural selection in a manner analogous to that of biological evolution. Memes do this through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance, each of which influences a meme's reproductive success. Memes spread through the behavior that they generate in their hosts. Memes that propagate less prolifically may become extinct, while others may survive, spread, and (for better or for worse) mutate. Memes that replicate most effectively enjoy more success, and some may replicate effectively even when they prove to be detrimental to the welfare of their hosts. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme)

Familar sovcit memes include - Laws don't apply to me without my consent. A Notary Public can issue binding legal judgements. Writing my name in a particular style endows or removes substantial rights. The govt has a secret account in my name, which I can draw upon by a secret process. Courts have no legitimate authority. I have the right to drive on public roads without licence, plates or insurance. God's law is superior to man-made law. I can be a citizen of a State, but not a citizen of the USA. An unrebutted affidavit has legal force as a statement of truth.

The internet offers countless variations, as Glimdropper says. 'Idea chunks' are added and removed as different strands of sovcit go in one direction or another. Importantly, this particular internet sector never stops to think "maybe we're wrong, maybe we're not victims of a conspiracy and we just need to take responsibility for our own lives?" In fact to suggest this would result in immediate shaming and expulsion. Instead the sovcit-aligned movement proceed like alchemists, believing that the perfect recipe of Idea Chunks will unlock everything they desire.

Apologies for Sunday afternoon rambling - I imagine this idea has been expressed previously, and with greater accuracy and eloquence.

PS - Also seems interesting that each newly-mutated sovcit theory is tested for it's Fitness to Survive in two distinct, unconnected environments. A particular theory may be very popular in the sovcit-aligned internet movement, generating high confidence in it's effectiveness. But when this theory is applied in the real world, it fails. In general evolutionary terms this seems a bad idea, unless we assume that some of the leading figures do not actually care much whether their ideas work in reality, but only want to create a 'viral' enthusiasm online to garner status and donations.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5093 by pipistrelle » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:44 am

I think this is a great analysis. What I wonder at is why they don't experience burnout. And why they don't eventually question these scams/schemes that exist just to relieve them of what little money they have.



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TollandRCR
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5094 by TollandRCR » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:52 am

Thanks to everybody above who have contributed to one of the most informative and thoughtful discussions on this weird topic.


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5095 by Foggy » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:17 am

Hercule Parrot wrote:Not long ago, someone like this wouldn't travel far from their home area. They would act out their resentment through domestic abuse, bar-room fights or crazy letters to the local paper. They might internalise their feelings and become depressive or alcoholic, maybe join a local Klan or mistreat animals. The essential point is their isolation - their miserable, nasty existence is largely unconnected to others, like a little hotspot of mutated Ebola, deep in an African forest.

And now comes the internet. Suddenly our resentful John Doe is in touch with countless others who share his sense of grievance. He's not alone any more, he feels reinforced and validated by this vast peer group. They agree with all of his complaints, and feed him many more. CPS is a feminist child-stealing conspiracy, chemtrails are sedating us before the Chinese army takes control, those damned Jews have their sticky fingers in everything etc.

That was all true with the birther movement, too. Back in the day, if you had one whackaloon frootloop in a town of 20,000 people, everybody in town knew they were nuts and the town became a rocky place, where their seed could find no purchase. But in a nation of 320 million, if there's one nutcase in 20,000, there are 16,000 nutcases, most of whom are online, and they can form a community of nutcases on the intarwebs. Which they surely did do. So then one nutcase would invent a new lie about the scary black president, and within 24 hours it would be reported on 30 or 40 other nutcase websites, and pretty soon it became gospel among the nutcases.

The last new one I remember was a lady named Mia Marie Pope, who surfaced in October 2013 and recalled knowing the president when she was a teenager. It turned out that he was a cocaine addict, a homosexual prostitute, and maybe not even a very nice person. Of course, she knew him as "Barry Soetoro" at a time when it was easily provable that everyone else who knew him was calling him Barry Obama. He gave up using his stepfather's surname after he returned to Hawaii from Indonesia at age 10. This glaring mistake (and the contradictory descriptions from all the people in Hawaii who really did know him as a teenager) made no impression on the birthers. They never even bothered to ask where she had been for the past 5 years of birther madness. Her account was accepted 100% and might as well have been written in the Holy Bible.


The Universe has never been, nor will it ever be, "post-truth".

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5096 by Notorial Dissent » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:22 am

That is however, and unfortunately , how those things work in teh whackaloonosphere. If the narrative fits what they want to here it is sacrosanct and irrefutable. The don't have to look any further, they KNOW it is true, that is just how it works in loonyland.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5097 by pipistrelle » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:29 am

Foggy wrote:
Hercule Parrot wrote:The last new one I remember was a lady named Mia Marie Pope, who surfaced in October 2013 and recalled knowing the president when she was a teenager. It turned out that he was a cocaine addict, a homosexual prostitute, and maybe not even a very nice person. Of course, she knew him as "Barry Soetoro" at a time when it was easily provable that everyone else who knew him was calling him Barry Obama. He gave up using his stepfather's surname after he returned to Hawaii from Indonesia at age 10. This glaring mistake (and the contradictory descriptions from all the people in Hawaii who really did know him as a teenager) made no impression on the birthers. They never even bothered to ask where she had been for the past 5 years of birther madness. Her account was accepted 100% and might as well have been written in the Holy Bible.


I think some relatively normal, pre-disposed people also believe things like this (black president) because they can't conceive that someone would lie and put their reputation on the line, because they themselves wouldn't do it. Then they spiral down.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5098 by Foggy » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am

Yes, and that's another aspect of it.

If a normal person sees actual evidence that contradicts their beliefs, they ordinarily feel compelled by conscience to change their beliefs. In other words, their beliefs are subject to the evidence.

For the whackaloon frootloops, the opposite is true. Any evidence, no matter how non-credible, is accepted as proof of the pre-existing belief. And any evidence that contradicts the pre-existing belief, no matter how solid and irrefutable, is discarded as fake. For them, evidence is subject to the beliefs.

In birtherism, there was a third part of the system too: They had so many lies about Obama that if you nailed them down on one of them, and exhaustively proved that they were spreading a lie about him, they would seamlessly shift to another one of the lies. By the time you'd disproven every single one of their lies, they'd circle around and start with the first one again. It turned out that the Sun will run out of fuel and turn into a red giant before a birther will run out of lies to tell.

So I took to just abusing them. :flame: :madguy:


The Universe has never been, nor will it ever be, "post-truth".

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5099 by Northland10 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:35 am

For the last couple of months, I have been off an on reading the 1970s FBI reports on the Posse Comitatus (where most of the SovCit thinking comes from). I had posted these in a different thread some time back. Apparently, the FBI posted them publically, with redactions, and then pulled them down. Somebody grabbed them before they went down and reposted them.

PDF 1
http://altgov2.org/wp-content/uploads/f ... pdf?189db0

PDF 2
http://altgov2.org/wp-content/uploads/f ... pdf?189db0

The full site with other files.
http://altgov2.org/deleted-fbi-files/

This was a time much of the same thinking spread but without the internet. Their target audience was often various racists and former farmers who lost their land in the farm crisis. Obviously, there were no Moorish types yet given the Christian Identity backdrop of the PC (remember, for many of the followers, the Sheriff was the highest LEO in the land because that level had not been corrupted by the "Zionist Occupation Government").

In the unredacted names, I have not noticed any currently active people but I assume those receiving attention by the FBI then (and not redacted) are likely deceased or in jail by now.

I have seen many of the same states come up in the records. Some of the regular ones were Oregon (Henry Beach was from there), California (William Potter Gale and, well California) and Wisconsin (with some Illinois).


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Fortinbras
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post #5100 by Fortinbras » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:30 am

One characteristic of the Posse Comitatus was its pretence of being a law enforcement outfit, the notion being that civilians with an axe to grind (mostly about taxes and foreclosures) could bunch and impose themselves on sheriffs who didn't want them (usually acting without even communicating with the sheriff), and go forth on their own to arrest -- and jail and put on trial and even hang -- people of their own (not the sheriff's) choosing. They commenced the craziness of filing bogus liens.

Actually by then (1980) I had managed to collect a bundle of court decisions (all reported - this was before Lexis and WestLaw), mostly from the civil rights struggles of the 1960s, that only the sheriff picks people for the posse, no one else can claim to pick or vet people for his posse, the sheriff commands the posse it is not autonomous, self-styled posse members are unauthorized and illegal vigilantes who bear the full liability for any false arrest, injuries, damages, etc. that they cause, etc. And, what should be obvious, the posse is an ephemeral organization, created for a specific purpose such as apprehending specific suspects, and when its task is finished, it is permanently disbanded, its members thereupon cease to have the qualified immunity of policemen; the next emergency will have the sheriff organize an entirely new posse, possibly composed of entirely different participants, and those who were part of a previous posse are in no way assured of any re-authorization.




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