Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

User avatar
Estiveo
Posts: 6341
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:31 pm
Location: Trouble's Howse

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Estiveo » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:31 pm

Northland10 wrote:
Vee wrote:I don't mean to sound completely ignorant (maybe I am) and definitely not racist. But how can a person be a black Israelite?
Some background might help. Most of the SovCit ideology is derived from a merging of the ideas of tax protesters and Christian Identity (CI) adherents in the 1960s and 1970s. This came together in the Christian Identity-based Posse Comitatus movements of the 1970s and 1980s. A major stream in CI derives from British Israelism and claims that they are the true lost tribe Israel, the chosen ones. To them, Jews are Satanic offspring of Eve and the serpent and non-whites are mud people. Obviously, this makes it rather odd for African-American to follow an ideology that considers them to be less than human.

From what I can tell, the Moorish claim makes them the "chosen ones" of Israel, just as the CI adherents had considered themselves to be the chosen ones. It is a convenient adaptation of a made up legal theory that also places them, in their mind, in a position higher than government authority.
Yesh! And for actual, non-sov-cit, black Israelites, google Beta Israel.
"Moths are velvety-soft abominations attracted to light." --Puck, reporter from Breaking Cat News

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 5631
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:20 pm

A sterling example of the Moorish-Israeite SovCit idiocy is that they claim sovereignty by dint of being the 'real' Indigenous Americans. They claim they were one of the 'lost tribes' and thus were here before the Indians.

Problem is: the "ten lost tribes" vanished ~2800 years ago, if they even existed. The historic Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt is thought to date to ~3500 years ago.

Archaeological dating of Indian remains puts them in America at least 9000 years ago and probably as much as 14,000 years ago. Oops.

Their crypto-historic claims are, as Colonel Potter used to say, "Horse Hockey." 8-)
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.

User avatar
Sam the Centipede
Posts: 4755
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:25 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Sam the Centipede » Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:01 am

RoadScholar wrote:A sterling example of the Moorish-Israeite SovCit idiocy is that they claim sovereignty by dint of being the 'real' Indigenous Americans. They claim they were one of the 'lost tribes' and thus were here before the Indians.

Problem is: the "ten lost tribes" vanished ~2800 years ago, if they even existed. The historic Exodus of the Israelites from Egypt is thought to date to ~3500 years ago.
There's an "if" to be added: AFAIK, archeologists and historians haven't found any good evidence for the Exodus described in the Bible. It could be another part of an origin myth, as with the twelve tribes.
RoadScholar wrote:Archaeological dating of Indian remains puts them in America at least 9000 years ago and probably as much as 14,000 years ago. Oops.
:o :o But but but ... that's before the world was created! It can't be so! :lol:
RoadScholar wrote:Their crypto-historic claims are, as Colonel Potter used to say, "Horse Hockey." 8-)
I see it as cargo cultism again, where people attempt to gain the status of a privileged group by adopting a pastiche of that group's attributes and actions. These guys have seen preachers dressing in their clown suits, ranting from pulpits, quote-mining the Bible, and becoming respected, rich and powerful for that. So they try the same, and my atheist sense says "and why not?" because many claims of established religions are no less nonsensical. Old nonsense is no better than new nonsense!

I have more sympathy with historically oppressed communities trying to concoct a proud back story than with white supremacists trying to claim more privilege or charlatans trying to escape the consequences of their bad decisions. Many white Americans can either trace their family roots back to the US's origins or some known immigration event, and find pride in that. Of course, there shouldn't be any shame attached to being a descendant of impressed and unrecorded slaves, but I can sympathize with a yearning for a more noble origins story.

User avatar
Flatpointhigh
Posts: 7204
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:05 pm
Location: Hotel California, PH23
Occupation: Voice Actor, Podcaster, I hold a Ph.D in Procrastination.
Contact:

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Flatpointhigh » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Vee wrote:I don't mean to sound completely ignorant (maybe I am) and definitely not racist. But how can a person be a black Israelite?
by inferring from the Exodus/pyramid murals/ignorance of the Book of Judith, where Holofernes is told that the Hebrews are originally from "Shinar" (Sumeria).

"It is wrong to say God made rich and poor; He only made male and female, and He gave them the Earth as their inheritance."- Thomas Paine, Forward to Agrarian Justice
Cancer broke me

User avatar
mmmirele
Posts: 2146
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:17 pm
Location: Xenu's Red Mountain Trap

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by mmmirele » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:26 am

This is a cross between Florida Man, America's Dumbest Superhero, and Sovereign Citizen nutbaggery. You might be able to see how this guy managed to turn refusal to pay a six-dollar bar tab into a world of hurt.
Kevin Charles Conklin, 54, was arrested on the Fourth of July after Lady Lake police were called to a restaurant in Lady Lake, WKMG reported.
:snippity:
And the part that is most important to us:
Conklin jumped an officer’s car and he chipped an officer’s front tooth while resisting arrest, WKMG reported.

Conklin reportedly informed the officer that “he is a sovereign citizen” and “did nothing wrong,” according to WKMG.

Conklin faces numerous charges including disorderly intoxication and two counts of petit theft.
As you can see, this guy is well-schooled in how to take a misdemeanor and turn it into a felony through the assiduous application of "let's assault a cop."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime ... zrpvwtjLP/

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 8125
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:42 am

My comment exactly. This guy is a fool's fool, and very self destructive.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
DejaMoo
Posts: 3006
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:19 pm
Occupation: Agent of ZOG

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by DejaMoo » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:38 pm

I'm reading the Boozy Barrister's blog right now and just about choked on this observation about crazy clients:
...These clients are always friendly right up until what you tell them doesn’t mesh with the fucked up reality they’ve created in their tiny little heads, and it sure as fuck translates directly onto their faces. When the eyes scrunch up, the lips purse, and the voice goes up two octaves your client either sat on a cucumber or heard you say something that the completely and fucking totally plan to disregard.
Definitely fits the crackpoots and SovCits we've come to know on TFB.

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 8125
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:53 am

That is priceless, and SO TRUE!!!!
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
Techno Luddite
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Techno Luddite » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:05 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:That is priceless, and SO TRUE!!!!
Clients who disobey or don't want legal advice are prevalent. So are, unfortunately, clients who have a "friend" or group of friends, who is not a lawyer but supposedly "knows stuff". And they are almost as bad.

Pamster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:40 am

I've been watching a guy on YouTube the last couple of days who's managed to resurrect that redemption scam that was recently discussed here to the degree that the fed issued this:

https://frbatlanta.org/news/pressreleas ... ng-numbers

From what I've observed, it looks like a few thousand people have tried it the last few weeks. It's started to spread out to other nutcase sites as well.

User avatar
RoadScholar
Posts: 5631
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:25 am
Location: Baltimore
Occupation: Historic Restoration Woodworker
Contact:

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RoadScholar » Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:34 am

They might just as well try telling their banks that Leprechauns have promised to pay their motrgages for them. 8-)
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.

Pamster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:56 am

This is the guy that's been pushing this with a rather remarkable degree of success among his followers. He's got them convinced that when these bank ACHs get charged back to keep submitting them, racking up fees and penalties, along with felony bank fraud charges. I just saw a woman over there, a single mother that's in foreclosure, and has already had a bunch of these transactions returned yet vows to keep trying and submitting them because she just can't be a "slave" anymore. I just can't wrap my brain around this kind of pants-on-head stupidity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-5vEKZpqNo&t=402s

User avatar
Sam the Centipede
Posts: 4755
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:25 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:59 am

Pamster wrote:This is the guy that's been pushing this with a rather remarkable degree of success among his followers. He's got them convinced that when these bank ACHs get charged back to keep submitting them, racking up fees and penalties, along with felony bank fraud charges. I just saw a woman over there,VA single mother that's in foreclosure, and has already had a bunch of these transactions returned yet vows to keep trying and submitting them because she just can't be a "slave" anymore. I just can't wrap my brain around this kind of pants-on-head stupidity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-5vEKZpqNo&t=402s
You did notice the election last year? There's plenty of stupidity around; if it were a fuel there would be no global warming crisis.

User avatar
NotaPerson
Posts: 2483
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by NotaPerson » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:04 am

Pamster wrote:I've been watching a guy on YouTube the last couple of days who's managed to resurrect that redemption scam that was recently discussed here to the degree that the fed issued this:

https://frbatlanta.org/news/pressreleas ... ng-numbers

From what I've observed, it looks like a few thousand people have tried it the last few weeks. It's started to spread out to other nutcase sites as well.
Yep, I've spent an embarrassing amount of time reading comments by these idiots the past few days. Just where do all these stupid damn people come from? It is both hilarious and quite sad.

You've seen his grift, right? He's selling t-shirts, hoodies, etc.
Am I being detained?

User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 40338
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am
Location: Trump International - Malibu

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:47 am

Techno Luddite wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:That is priceless, and SO TRUE!!!!
Clients who disobey or don't want legal advice are prevalent. So are, unfortunately, clients who have a "friend" or group of friends, who is not a lawyer but supposedly "knows stuff". And they are almost as bad.
Worse are the prospective clients who know a lawyer who has told that what s/he thinks about the matter. Invariably the opinion is wrong, is sometimes not really from a "lawyer," and if it is from a lawyer it's a lawyer who won't stand behind her/his opinion.

Note I said "prospective clients." That's as far as they get with me. I urge them to hire the lawyer who has told them what they proudly repeat and show them the door.

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 8125
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:49 am

This is regrettably an old scam that gets dusted off and trotted out and dusted off again every few years and it always ends in the same rain of tears. It's a very stupid and self destructive variation on Redemption, as using the Fed numbers is considered fraud and they generally come down pretty hard on the idjits involved. It's also a state bank fraud charges as well if anyone wants to push it.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
NotaPerson
Posts: 2483
Joined: Mon May 18, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by NotaPerson » Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:50 am

Notorial Dissent wrote:This is regrettably an old scam that gets dusted off and trotted out and dusted off again every few years and it always ends in the same rain of tears. It's a very stupid and self destructive variation on Redemption, as using the Fed numbers is considered fraud and they generally come down pretty hard on the idjits involved. It's also a state bank fraud charges as well if anyone wants to push it.
And yet, I've seen several comments from people saying there should be a class-action lawsuit against the Fed for not allowing them access to their "secret accounts."
Am I being detained?

Pamster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:21 pm

Sam the Centipede wrote:
Pamster wrote:This is the guy that's been pushing this with a rather remarkable degree of success among his followers. He's got them convinced that when these bank ACHs get charged back to keep submitting them, racking up fees and penalties, along with felony bank fraud charges. I just saw a woman over there,VA single mother that's in foreclosure, and has already had a bunch of these transactions returned yet vows to keep trying and submitting them because she just can't be a "slave" anymore. I just can't wrap my brain around this kind of pants-on-head stupidity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-5vEKZpqNo&t=402s
You did notice the election last year? There's plenty of stupidity around; if it were a fuel there would be no global warming crisis.
Watching these idiots does indeed help me understand the election. It's just sort of terrifying how many more of them there are than I ever knew. I guess I should get out more. Or actually maybe not.

User avatar
Notorial Dissent
Posts: 8125
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:21 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:50 pm

NotaPerson wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:This is regrettably an old scam that gets dusted off and trotted out and dusted off again every few years and it always ends in the same rain of tears. It's a very stupid and self destructive variation on Redemption, as using the Fed numbers is considered fraud and they generally come down pretty hard on the idjits involved. It's also a state bank fraud charges as well if anyone wants to push it.
And yet, I've seen several comments from people saying there should be a class-action lawsuit against the Fed for not allowing them access to their "secret accounts."
Some people are just too brain dead stupid to be let out without a keeper too, along with people who believe the world is flat and Faux News is anything but.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

User avatar
Techno Luddite
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Techno Luddite » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:50 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
Techno Luddite wrote:
Notorial Dissent wrote:That is priceless, and SO TRUE!!!!
Clients who disobey or don't want legal advice are prevalent. So are, unfortunately, clients who have a "friend" or group of friends, who is not a lawyer but supposedly "knows stuff". And they are almost as bad.
Worse are the prospective clients who know a lawyer who has told that what s/he thinks about the matter. Invariably the opinion is wrong, is sometimes not really from a "lawyer," and if it is from a lawyer it's a lawyer who won't stand behind her/his opinion.

Note I said "prospective clients." That's as far as they get with me. I urge them to hire the lawyer who has told them what they proudly repeat and show them the door.

I've taken to telling some clients that perhaps they should be in pro per and just get their advice from their cousin, friend, or the mailman instead.

Pamster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:10 pm

NotaPerson wrote:
Pamster wrote:I've been watching a guy on YouTube the last couple of days who's managed to resurrect that redemption scam that was recently discussed here to the degree that the fed issued this:

https://frbatlanta.org/news/pressreleas ... ng-numbers

From what I've observed, it looks like a few thousand people have tried it the last few weeks. It's started to spread out to other nutcase sites as well.
Yep, I've spent an embarrassing amount of time reading comments by these idiots the past few days. Just where do all these stupid damn people come from? It is both hilarious and quite sad.

You've seen his grift, right? He's selling t-shirts, hoodies, etc.
Yeah, I've noted the T-shirt thing, but after watching a few of his videos, I'm convinced that he's genuinely mentally ill. I had a schizophrenic brother, so I recognize some of the behavior. The continual inappropriate laughter at random moments, for one. The verbal repetition, using the exact same phrases over and over without any awareness that he's doing it is another. And the complete denial of consequences of his clearly uncontrolled impulsive actions. I kinda miss the days when we locked crazies like this up for their own safety and the safety of others. Not that I think he's legally insane, as in not responsible for his actions, mind you. He needs to be prosecuted and thrown in prison, if only for being an insufferable asshole.

And what is the deal with the resurgence of this flat earth thing? I kept seeing references to it and thought it was a joke (Poe's Law is a bitch these days), but learning that it's actually a burgeoning real thing now makes me want to defenestrate myself. Is it a christian dominionist thing?

User avatar
Techno Luddite
Posts: 2480
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Techno Luddite » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:01 pm

Pamster wrote:Not that I think he's legally insane, as in not responsible for his actions, mind you. He needs to be prosecuted and thrown in prison, if only for being an insufferable :yeah: asshole.

And what is the deal with the resurgence of this flat earth thing? I kept seeing references to it and thought it was a joke (Poe's Law is a bitch these days), but learning that it's actually a burgeoning real thing now makes me want to defenestrate myself. Is it a christian dominionist thing?
Yeah, a few years back before it took over every kook's youtube channel, I stumbled across a site for a purported Flat Earth Society. I thought then, and still consider it a possibility, that it was just a joke. It read like a spoof, like some really good dry humor. But that wacky theory has really taken off and that site is still around... :confused:

Here, take a look. Does that FAQ not seem like it MIGHT be tongue-in-cheek? https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/faq

The conspiracy theories seem to be getting wackier - crisis actors, jade helm, flat earth, Puerto Rican post office conspiracies, etc. Some of them are just fall-on-the-floor funny.

Pamster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:10 pm

Yeah, I remember the original Flat Earth Society site and, like you, had always assumed it was satire. And if it wasn't, back then it was insignificant. It's rather alarming to me that these formerly fringe belief systems are becoming so widespread and mainstreamed. I'm considering suing Al Gore for inventing the internet in the first place; anybody wanna join in a class action suit? ;)

pipistrelle
Posts: 1825
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by pipistrelle » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:29 pm

Pamster wrote:Yeah, I remember the original Flat Earth Society site and, like you, had always assumed it was satire. And if it wasn't, back then it was insignificant. It's rather alarming to me that these formerly fringe belief systems are becoming so widespread and mainstreamed. I'm considering suing Al Gore for inventing the internet in the first place; anybody wanna join in a class action suit? ;)
The Flat Earth Society had a Facebook post about something that was going on "around the globe." Ermmmm.

Pamster
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:17 pm

Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:03 pm

Yeah, that never fails to get a giggle out of me.

Post Reply

Return to “Sovereign Citizens, Private Militias, and Citizen Grand Juries”