Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Vee
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Vee » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:05 pm

Thanks. I'll go check it out when I get time.

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RoadScholar
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RoadScholar » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:55 pm

The idea is facially absurd: some of the nutters have claimed there is as much as 10 million dollars in secret accounts for each American. That would come to ~3500 trillion dollars.

Ever hear the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain?" That's all this is. A hobo's pipe dream.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by pipistrelle » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:08 pm

RoadScholar wrote:The idea is facially absurd: some of the nutters have claimed there is as much as 10 million dollars in secret accounts for each American. That would come to ~3500 trillion dollars.

Ever hear the song "Big Rock Candy Mountain?" That's all this is. A hobo's pipe dream.
ryan, the man, believes it, or did when he filed all that stuff in Oregon.

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GlimDropper
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by GlimDropper » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:10 am

I really have no idea who these people are, I'm only about half way through the vid and am nodding out but in some ways it's a very amusing anti sovcit rant round table. I mean no disrespect in saying this but I love the matching outfits, sorta makes them look like a super hero team. And kinda rare, people who seem to be devoted not only to the King James version of the Bible but also the King James apocrypha:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5rWWQ ... e=youtu.be

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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:10 am

Thanks for the video link, GlimDropper. I dipped into it. They're called Israel United in Christ, Inc. and have an abomination of a website at israelunite.org.

As the menorah on the logo suggests, they're some variety of the twelve tribes of Israel stuff, so they celebrate the Jewish sabbath and forbid work, cooking, etc. on that day. They claim that Blacks and Hispanics have been getting into difficulty because they haven't been following their gods and/or their holy book. They also appear to be in favor of sexism as as they held a IUIC Men's Conference in 2015 - any group that feels the need to exclude women has my total contempt. Excluding men or other privileged groups I understand, but excluding the less privileged ... no.

Their super-hero clothes are quite something, aren't they?! But see what Bishop Nathanyel gets to wear, he has the full super-hero from Planet Kerbling outfit:


They probably use the Apocryphal books as well as the Protestant canon of the King James Bible because it gives them more bits to cherry pick. Books like Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) are always going to be good source material.

As you say, they're ranting against sovcittery, saying that one should respect and obey earthly authorities. But I don't really feel it's a great advance to replace one form of idiocy (sovcittery) with their cartload of nonsense based on quote-mining an ancient book of irrelevant fables. I'm all for empowerment of the historically weaker sections of society and encouraging pride in those communities, but not through the medium of more fantasy role playing.

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Fortinbras
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Fortinbras » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:03 am

"They probably use the Apocryphal books"

They do indeed. See their "Behind Bars" page, which contains quotes from Ecclesiasticus, First Esdras, Baruch, etc. evidently using the KJV titles for the apocryphal books. Ecclesiasticus has a bona fide Hebrew origin (found at the Cairo genizah at the turn of the century), First Esdras and Baruch do not appear to have Hebrew manuscripts but are mentioned in such early Jewish authors as Josephus.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by neeneko » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:57 am

Vee wrote:Amazing. These guys are claiming to "know" someone who has done this. I say BS. Probably some guy trying to sell something.
Generally what happens is paying debts like this buys them a little time, which they use to brag.

For instance, if they pay their taxes using such instruments, it takes a few years for the IRS to notice that the person hasn't been paying their taxes in a while. So they get a few years of 'see, they accepted my payment!', but eventually get caught.

Vee
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Vee » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:12 pm

One guy claims to have paid his credit card off. I know julie embry bought a car and claims to have paid it in full this way. How the heck do they get away with this even fo f a year or so? Doesn't make any sense to me. But I'm new at hearing about these sovs and their nonsense. Thank you guys for tolerating me and educating me. I work so much I have little time to investigate

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by bob » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:43 pm

Vee wrote:One guy claims to have paid his credit card off. I know julie embry bought a car and claims to have paid it in full this way.
"Claims" appears to be doing all the work here: As we say in the debunking business, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." In others words, ask for proof.
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RoadScholar
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RoadScholar » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:43 pm

Two possibilities, and only two:

1) They are lying.

2) The collection agencies haven't caught up with them yet.

My money's on the former.
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.

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GlimDropper
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by GlimDropper » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:48 pm

Vee, it isn't magical if you think it through. Let's take Ms. Embry's free car. I doubt she handed the dealer some sort of sovcit voodoo paperwork and they handed her keys. More likely she took out a loan, paid for the car in a conventional manner and then sent the company holding her loan some sort of "Paid in Full" red thumb print at a 45 degree angle over a two cent stamp bargle paperwork.

Now imagine you got a loan, bought a car but never sent the load company a dime. How long before they repo the vehicle? In all that time Julie can brag about her magic success and as a bonus, after the car gets towed away she gets to complain about the corrupt and unjust banksters who don't follow the secret magic laws which really govern commerce. And her friends can offer suggestions about how to do the magic better.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Vee » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:10 pm

Found this on her website. http://www.julieembry.com/administratin ... fairs.html
File too large for me to upload. http://www.julieembry.com/uploads/1/5/2 ... embry_.pdf
She believes this is evidence.

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Northland10
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Northland10 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:43 pm

Vee wrote:Found this on her website. http://www.julieembry.com/administratin ... fairs.html
File too large for me to upload. http://www.julieembry.com/uploads/1/5/2 ... embry_.pdf
She believes this is evidence.
In case we need a name with a face, here is mugshot of Julie Embry when she was arrested for hindering proceedings, resisting arrest, and contempt of court. (I checked the picture and address and it is her). Lubbock TX does not appear to have easily available so I do not have any more information beyond the "hold pending filing charts" for the first two and 3 days for the contempt.

http://mugshots.com/US-Counties/Texas/L ... 66295.html
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GlimDropper
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by GlimDropper » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:09 pm

Vee wrote:Found this on her website. http://www.julieembry.com/administratin ... fairs.html
File too large for me to upload. http://www.julieembry.com/uploads/1/5/2 ... embry_.pdf
She believes this is evidence.
Her credit report document is a little hinky. It's a photograph (perhaps by a cell phone) of a document she seems to have printed out herself. It is possible she was using cheap, thin printer paper, the kind that if you have one page sitting on top of another, you can see some of that second page bleeding through the first. Another possibility is that she altered the document in some way before taking a picture of it. At face value she took out a used car loan in May of 2013, made a last recorded payment in December of '15, no recorded closed date and a remark mentions a reinvestigation in progress.

I'm not sure what to make of it but it isn't proof of magic.

Now if she could prove that she got paid on this invoice, that would be magic.

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bob
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by bob » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:33 pm

Proof of a zero-dollar loan balance is proof of only ... a zero-dollar loan balance.

Where's the proof of how it was actually paid? SovCit words? Magic beans? Cash?
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Northland10
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Northland10 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:38 pm

Nothing like getting your legal opinions/orders from a cosmetologist.
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Whip
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Whip » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:26 pm

GlimDropper wrote:
Her credit report document is a little hinky.
the Payment Status says "120-149 days late" and the bottom of the page Remarks says "Consumer disputes-reinvestigation in progress".
So, since she says her last payment was Oct, 2015, the '120-149 days late' make sense on a report checked Mar 13, 2016.
She's just shitty at document manipulation.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Flatpointhigh » Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:51 pm

GlimDropper wrote:I really have no idea who these people are, I'm only about half way through the vid and am nodding out but in some ways it's a very amusing anti sovcit rant round table. I mean no disrespect in saying this but I love the matching outfits, sorta makes them look like a super hero team. And kinda rare, people who seem to be devoted not only to the King James version of the Bible but also the King James apocrypha:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA5rWWQ ... e=youtu.be
These are the "Black Israelites" who believe that they are the True Israelites, and the rest of us Jews are simply Khazari pretenders. They also believe that they will rule the Earth and White people and African will be their slaves. I see them preaching their version of "black supremacy " here, and one night, I, a "fake jew" was asked to read something for them that was in Hebrew...

"It is wrong to say God made rich and poor; He only made male and female, and He gave them the Earth as their inheritance."- Thomas Paine, Forward to Agrarian Justice
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GlimDropper
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by GlimDropper » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:48 pm

Flatpointhigh wrote:
These are the "Black Israelites" who believe that they are the True Israelites, and the rest of us Jews are simply Khazari pretenders. They also believe that they will rule the Earth and White people and African will be their slaves. I see them preaching their version of "black supremacy " here, and one night, I, a "fake jew" was asked to read something for them that was in Hebrew...
It is worth mentioning that the term "Black Israelite" may be every bit as unitary a description as "White non Catholic Christian." You have everything from mainline white bread Protestants to Pentecostal snake handlers speaking in tongues, it's easy to see how different they are but they both fit into the same broadly drawn category.

As to the IUIC, I don't have enough information to draw conclusions but they sure do like arguing with other groups in their same broadly drawn category. They clearly hold a strictly Biblical view of gender roles, by modern standards they're as sexist as any fundamentalist followers of an Abrahamic faith. There are other issues as well so I'm not trying to paint them as the happy clouds in a Bob Ross landscape but they are perhaps not guilty of every wrong ever done in the name of Black Israelites.

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Fortinbras
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Fortinbras » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:16 pm

bob wrote:Proof of a zero-dollar loan balance is proof of only ... a zero-dollar loan balance.

Where's the proof of how it was actually paid? SovCit words? Magic beans? Cash?
What is very likely with this, and other pretenses of using funny money to pay off bank loans or credit cards, is that the Sovtard has submitted some form of funny money to the bank or credit card company. The mail clerk who opened the envelope made an immediate accounting entry on good faith expectation that the document was an honest check worth its purported amount (those mail clerks have perhaps ten seconds to examine an incoming item and are not trained in the subtleties of banking or counterfeiting) ... so for a brief time it looked like the debt was paid. A bit further down the line, a more senior clerk spotted the bogus check - possibly after the bank kicked it back - and the account was corrected to show that the debt was still unpaid. But during the brief time that the computer showed the error, the Sovtard got an image of the account and is now foisting it on you as "proof" that the funny money was worth something.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by mmmirele » Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:14 pm

This is one we're going to have to watch.

Brian Hammond is accused of not returning his son, Aden, aged 15, to the custody of his mother after a scheduled visitation. This prompted the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation to issue an endangered child alert. Here's the key part for our purposes:
Brian Hammond has made claims to be a Sovereign Citizen who does not believe the custody order is valid and is refused to return his son, according to the TBI.

The TBI reported Aden may share his father’s beliefs.
Aden was found and returned to his mother and Brian was arrested for custodial interference.

http://wate.com/2017/05/27/endangered-c ... kson-teen/

Brian was back in court on June 29. He didn't have an attorney, so the judge granted him time to obtain one. His next court appearance is July 27. And yes, this article also mentions he's a sovereign citizen.

http://www.wbbjtv.com/2017/06/29/father ... ack-court/

So we'll have to wait until July 27 to see if Hammond gets some sense into him. But if he's a true sovcit, Hammond will likely either not find an attorney that will present whatever whacked-out flaky theory he's dreamed up, or try to go it alone, without counsel. Of course, he could get some sense into his head and decide to do it the usual way, with a lawyer representing him.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Vee » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:09 pm

I don't mean to sound completely ignorant (maybe I am) and definitely not racist. But how can a person be a black Israelite?

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by GlimDropper » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:29 pm

Vee wrote:I don't mean to sound completely ignorant (maybe I am) and definitely not racist. But how can a person be a black Israelite?
My friend, ever try to nail jello to a tree during a hurricane? Cause that's sorta what it's like to make a rational, orderly assessment of sovcit (and quasi sovcit) thought processes. Hell, it's half the fun, you need to be part cultural anthropologist and part aberrant psychologist. First step, abandon any notion that their ideas cohere in a logical sense then start looking for patterns, "chunks of ideas" if you will and see how different groups or people use those same chunks to form more or less equally wrong notions but in new and (marginally) innovative ways. From there you can start tracing patterns of misinformation from one group to another in a kinda flow chart of gullibility. Bonus points if along in that process you start to question some of the more main stream if also unsupported ideas you yourself hold but previously didn't think to wonder about. Because aside from the lols, a little more self insight is about the only thing we can gain from obsessing on these folk.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Northland10 » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:40 pm

Vee wrote:I don't mean to sound completely ignorant (maybe I am) and definitely not racist. But how can a person be a black Israelite?
Some background might help. Most of the SovCit ideology is derived from a merging of the ideas of tax protesters and Christian Identity (CI) adherents in the 1960s and 1970s. This came together in the Christian Identity-based Posse Comitatus movements of the 1970s and 1980s. A major stream in CI derives from British Israelism and claims that they are the true lost tribe Israel, the chosen ones. To them, Jews are Satanic offspring of Eve and the serpent and non-whites are mud people. Obviously, this makes it rather odd for African-American to follow an ideology that considers them to be less than human.

From what I can tell, the Moorish claim makes them the "chosen ones" of Israel, just as the CI adherents had considered themselves to be the chosen ones. It is a convenient adaptation of a made up legal theory that also places them, in their mind, in a position higher than government authority.
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Suranis
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Suranis » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:46 pm

Se also black Irish and black Russians.
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