Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:48 pm

pipistrelle wrote:
Pamster wrote:I don't have much sympathy for any of them either. It's possible, if difficult, for me to feel some compassion for the painfully stupid, but the naked greed and lack of ethics these people shamelessly display puts me right off. What astonishes me is that anybody could watch any of this Harvey Dent fellow's videos and think, "This guy sounds reasonable and credible enough to take financial advice from."
Same people who watch the "but wait . . . there's more!" TV commercials and think they're getting a miracle kitchen device.
I used to be married to a guy like that. I suspect he burned his hands frequently as a child before he learned not to touch a hot stove.

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:55 pm

Back during the Bundy Ranch brouhaha, Rachel Maddow did an excellent segment on the history of the SovCit and Posse Comitatus thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVfZh1iDCYs

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Techno Luddite
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Techno Luddite » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:05 pm

Pamster wrote:Back during the Bundy Ranch brouhaha, Rachel Maddow did an excellent segment on the history of the SovCit and Posse Comitatus thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVfZh1iDCYs
She explains the history of the whole sheriff is the highest authority bit of pseudo law very well.

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NotaPerson
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by NotaPerson » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:55 pm

Stupid sovcit calls the Federal Reserve to find out why he cannot get access to his secret account. The one set up for him at birth, now supposedly containing millions of dollars...
► Show Spoiler
https://youtu.be/BHssD2Xxj5w

There seem to be THOUSANDS of people currently falling for this nonsense.
Am I being detained?

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:19 pm

Yeah, it's getting really crazy over there. People are sending them through over and over. Apparently, Harvey has deleted this video, in which he almost gets arrested. Wish he would have been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5weZI0hHac

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Fortinbras
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Fortinbras » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:21 pm

For the remarkable Fed email .... this guy mentions that he sent not one but three of the bogus checks on the imaginary Fed account to the power company when the power compaany hadn't even sent him a bill, and somehow nothing has yet hit the fan so therefore that imaginary Fed account must be for real.

More likely, since the power company hadn't sent a bill and since he sent three duplicate bogus checks, the power company is still trying to straighten out his account with them. It may take several days for the power company to satisfy itself that none of the checks is valid, and even though he wasn't delinquent on the date those checks arrived, once the power company sends out its bill the timer starts ticking down. My expectation is that a utility like the power company doesn't cut off service without going the second mile, so it may be a few months from now that this guy will be unable to turn on his computer.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by neeneko » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:32 pm

Fortinbras wrote:For the remarkable Fed email .... this guy mentions that he sent not one but three of the bogus checks on the imaginary Fed account to the power company when the power compaany hadn't even sent him a bill, and somehow nothing has yet hit the fan so therefore that imaginary Fed account must be for real.
Looking through the thread on that youtube video, it is a fascinating example of why so many think that these things work. Multiple people posting that their payments showed as complete/transferred and only later rejected are proof the account is real but something nefarious (or ignorant) is stopping their access.

Pompeed
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pompeed » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:41 pm

Pamster wrote:Yeah, it's getting really crazy over there. People are sending them through over and over. Apparently, Harvey has deleted this video, in which he almost gets arrested. Wish he would have been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5weZI0hHac


That's been saved for comments elsewhere.

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:45 pm

I don't understand, Pompeed. Did I do something wrong by posting that?

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pompeed » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:01 pm

Pamster wrote:I don't understand, Pompeed. Did I do something wrong by posting that?


No, no. Not at all. Did not mean to confuse you. Apologies.

Dent took it down on his channel. He doesn't tolerate negative comments on his videos and it seems that he finally got the hint that he was making an ass of himself by the level of mockery.

Before he could take it down, however, I pointed it out to Van Balion, a Brit who is a friend of mine. He copied it and has it up on his. He has copied other Dent videos too and the comments are all of the mockery Dent well deserves and cannot control.

Latest news from a banking insider I trust because his work is on the fraud side of banking: the spike in the level of fraud of late is such that the Fed suggested that the banks report all such activities to the authorities. Names, addresses, phone numbers, account information, SS numbers, attempts etc. of all who have tried to defraud the US Government by use of Fed Reserve routing numbers. It's not as if there's a paucity of evidence! Every one involved left their stinking paw prints all over the place!

I say: lock 'em up!

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Notorial Dissent » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:15 pm

I think it is about time they took stuff like this seriously, now if they will just get the instigators as well. One upshot of all this is that these people could end up on the banking NO ACCOUNT list and not be able to get any kind of bank account. Banks have finally gotten to the point they won't put up with this kind of behavior. Which in some cases could be a good thing as these people really can't handle even a simple checking account.
The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:41 pm

I used to work at a bank. I can guarantee that they will all end up on the check systems. And if it's just that, they're lucky. I've tried to talk some sense into some of them, but they want no part of it. So now I just mock them.

Pompeed
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pompeed » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:15 am

Pamster wrote:I used to work at a bank. I can guarantee that they will all end up on the check systems. And if it's just that, they're lucky. I've tried to talk some sense into some of them, but they want no part of it. So now I just mock them.

Frankly, I hope they end up shut out of the banking system entirely AND shut out of the credit system too. AmEx and CapOne and PayPal are reacting by shutting down accounts. Why not? Breach the credit agreement by attempting fraud on the creditor and the creditor has every right to refuse credit.

I also hope that the sheep followers get called on the carpet and threatened to either help the feds make cases against the biggest Internet players or enjoy their trials. The Feds have to make examples of the Dents and the Tex Masons and the Taj Moor types and the Herstands and Ms. Fox and the rest.

After 40 something years, these birth certificate and redemption and related scams have to stop.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:17 am

Pompeed wrote:Latest news from a banking insider I trust because his work is on the fraud side of banking: the spike in the level of fraud of late is such that the Fed suggested that the banks report all such activities to the authorities. Names, addresses, phone numbers, account information, SS numbers, attempts etc. of all who have tried to defraud the US Government by use of Fed Reserve routing numbers. It's not as if there's a paucity of evidence! Every one involved left their stinking paw prints all over the place!
I wonder just how many cases the Feds are seeing of these (really) fraudulent documents driven by these (pretend) legal beliefs. It must be a lot to have so much notice going out through so many different channels. I highly doubt that there's a significant amount of success, because this is a pretty simple fraud to detect -- anything hits with certain ABA routing numbers through a retail check clearing mechanism and not via an interbank SWIFT transfer is going to be fraudulent, 100.00% of the time, and as Pompeed points out, the paper trail is absolute and certain, and it's easy to flag in real time.

There are two principles that poots won't understand that are going to govern the future of these fraudsters:

1. The principle of government (in)action: People start to do bad things and don't get arrested due to government (in)action, and they think they're getting away with stuff. But when the government goes in action, it's more of an over-reaction and they swat flies with a sledgehammer. No longer will the Feds shrug this off as the occasional crank; when they convince themselves it's an organized criminal enterprise, you'd be stunned at how much resource they can muster. I've been involved in several white collar crime cases (as a witness only, of course) and the resources the FBI devoted to even the smallest one of these, cross-checking every detail endlessly, is quite stunning.

2. Fraud prevention gets increasingly good at fighting the last war. Remember that these bogus financial instruments started out in the 1980s with the Posse Comitatus movement, and they succeeded initially because bank tellers didn't know better and the systems they were using weren't sophisticated enough to spot bogus payments like "sight drafts" and "lien drafts" immediately. And cases involving those forged documents were rare, and often in small towns where it would be hard to prosecute -- think of the Freedmen in rural Montana, who were big fans of this sort of crime. So given that these nimrods are trying a scheme that's been around for at least a decade, as evidenced by a 2009 LA Times article describing nearly identical fraudulent documents, the chances their scheme will work are quite small. Protip for poot fraudsters: these days, the only frauds that will work are new and original and exceedingly clever ones, often designed by educated and patient people with an insider's knowledge of how these computer systems work... Poots are often uneducated and are always into magical thinking about quick-and-easy riches, which is not exactly the right personality type for success.

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:09 am

The phrase in your first point about organized criminal enterprise reminded me of a thought I had last night while watching the machinations they were attempting in order to give them access to fast cash. There was lots of discussion among them about different methods and financial services and I wondered if that could be considered conspiracy in a legal sense.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:41 am

Pompeed wrote:
Pamster wrote:I :snippity:

After 40 something years, these birth certificate and redemption and related scams have to stop.
With Betsy DeVos at the helm of education, this will never happen.
► Show Spoiler

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:56 am

But even if we could somehow improve education (which we could in theory, though not, as you point out, with Devos and her dominionist theology at the helm), how do you educate those who have open contempt at the very concept of education? Hell, just last week there was an article in Newsweek about a Pew poll that said 58% of republicans think that a college education is bad for the country. Where do you go from there? I'm stumped.

http://www.newsweek.com/republicans-bel ... ews-634474

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by RTH10260 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:06 am

Pamster wrote:But even if we could somehow improve education (which we could in theory, though not, as you point out, with Devos and her dominionist theology at the helm), how do you educate those who have open contempt at the very concept of education? Hell, just last week there was an article in Newsweek about a Pew poll that said 58% of republicans think that a college education is bad for the country. Where do you go from there? I'm stumped.

http://www.newsweek.com/republicans-bel ... ews-634474
From observing US ways of life: deny them a drivers license! Though it may not stop your True SovCitTM from travelling with more than one horse power.

Pamster
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:21 am

Well, I dunno if that would help the education problem or not, but it would sure make driving a lot more pleasant. So I'm OK with this.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pompeed » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:42 am

Pamster wrote:The phrase in your first point about organized criminal enterprise reminded me of a thought I had last night while watching the machinations they were attempting in order to give them access to fast cash. There was lots of discussion among them about different methods and financial services and I wondered if that could be considered conspiracy in a legal sense.

I've had exactly the same thoughts over the past few days: they are overtly thinking that helping each other is a method to help themselves and actually helping each other is a positive too. As one "method" doesn't work, they announce what they tried which failed, ask for assistance as to something else, get a suggestion from someone which is openly shared, and that is tried as a group. Often with the comment about how they are all trying to "get the big bad Government which is keeping them in debt slavery" and now they are all in a group of single minded people sharing ideas, methods and means to help each other "get to THEIR money."

I've seen comments along the lines of "there are so many of us now in this revolution of getting our money back, the Government can't stop us."

If all of that is not a conspiracy to defraud both the Government and a multitude of creditors, I've never heard of one.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:26 am

That brings up another thought that I had that is rather amusing. There's a supreme irony here: they are always whining about being "slaves to the government", "bought and sold" and other victimization gibberish. Yet here, by their own actions, a not-insignificant number will end up in the for-profit prison system, where they really will be slaves creating wealth for others. For the record, I think for-profit prisons are a loathsome concept and among the worst ideas our country has ever implemented. But in this case, it's not without a certain dark humor.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Pamster » Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:39 am

The Fed's bulletins are getting more strongly worded. I've also seen some references to at least one arrest when some idiot tried to buy a car (presumably a Tesla), but I haven't found where that rumor originated.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/banking/frscams.html

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by Lansdowne » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:45 am

Two things I have noticed on more than one of these youtube comment threads. The first being where someone asks "how can I do this, I live in Canada/UK/France etc, our equivalent of SSN is this". Generally they get no answer, or they are told "do your own research" etc, but sometimes an amateur guru offers to do the research, but of course they have no knowledge of the banking/tax/administrative set-up in the country so they come up with worse garbage than the original about bank codes and account numbers.

secondly, I have started to see people being advised to use any-old bank/routing number, Barclays, BofA etc with their SSN, as the FRB ones "no longer work". The made-up advice for overseas countries does this too. This greatly increases the risk that picking a random (but real) bank code and random account number will hit a real live bank account whose innocent owner will be hit for the cost of the Toyota Tesla.

neeneko
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by neeneko » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:40 am

Lansdowne wrote:secondly, I have started to see people being advised to use any-old bank/routing number, Barclays, BofA etc with their SSN, as the FRB ones "no longer work". The made-up advice for overseas countries does this too. This greatly increases the risk that picking a random (but real) bank code and random account number will hit a real live bank account whose innocent owner will be hit for the cost of the Toyota Tesla.
I can just picture the outrage now. SovCit uses SSN based routing number and gets real cash out, is caught stealing from someone else's account, is told who's account it actually is, then SovCits jumping to the conclusion that this other person has been given illegal access to their strawman and thus there must be some super secret spoils system where evil fed lawyers are handing them out to people for various corrupt reasons.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

Post by noblepa » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:54 am

Fortinbras wrote:For the remarkable Fed email .... this guy mentions that he sent not one but three of the bogus checks on the imaginary Fed account to the power company when the power compaany hadn't even sent him a bill, and somehow nothing has yet hit the fan so therefore that imaginary Fed account must be for real.

More likely, since the power company hadn't sent a bill and since he sent three duplicate bogus checks, the power company is still trying to straighten out his account with them. It may take several days for the power company to satisfy itself that none of the checks is valid, and even though he wasn't delinquent on the date those checks arrived, once the power company sends out its bill the timer starts ticking down. My expectation is that a utility like the power company doesn't cut off service without going the second mile, so it may be a few months from now that this guy will be unable to turn on his computer.
If they hadn't sent him a bill, it is likely that there was no indication of the power company account number that the checks were intended to pay.

Most of the time, when you send a check to pay a recurring bill, like the power company, water bill or other such bills, the check really is going to a bank, not the power company itself. This is called lockbox processing. The bank attempts to deposit the check and sends the bill slip that you are supposed to return with the check, to the power company, to credit your account. If there is no slip and the account number is not written on the check, the bank will set it aside and send it to the company to figure out, thus delaying the process considerably.

Back when I was a programmer for a large bank, there was a company that would mail postcards from every major zip code to every other major zip code in the US and record the time it took the USPS to deliver them. They then published the results. I admitted to knowing the Fortran programming language, so I got stuck working on a program that analyzed that data. The goal was to show potential customers that our location would result in the fastest collection times, based on their customer locations. The customer would give us a list of the zip codes for their customer base and this program would calculate an average mailing time for their customer's checks to reach our processing center.

This is (or was) a big business for banks. Its probably not so big now, since many people pay bills electronically. I don't write a single check on a regular basis any more. But that is why, in the dark ages before internet banking, that you may have mailed your check for a supplier in Cleveland to a PO box in Kansas City.

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