Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

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Gregg
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5701

Post by Gregg » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:16 am

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 pm
neeneko wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:14 am
Lani wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:32 am
There are several sovereign citizen movements in Hawaii, but they are different from the mainland. Yes, there are refusals to have driver licenses, etc., but they are based upon the very real overthrow of the government in 1893.
Even I have to admit, I would love to see a legal case where someone made the argument that the Fed broke some treaty it signed and thus some block of territory revered to some pre-imperial owner.
The Iroquois tried that. Simplifying greatly, the Iroquois said that the only treaties they had were with NY state and the Constitution says states can't make treaties, so give us back upstate NY. Court said that they were right, but we screwed you over a long time ago and you waited too long to file, so no soup for you.
So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that a nation was lost because of an implied statute of limitations? :bag:


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Dan1100
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5702

Post by Dan1100 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:37 am

Gregg wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:16 am
:snippity:

So it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that a nation was lost because of an implied statute of limitations? :bag:
Yes, but they give it a Norman French name (laches) which somehow makes it better. :bag:


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neeneko
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5703

Post by neeneko » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:23 am

Dan1100 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 pm
The Iroquois tried that. Simplifying greatly, the Iroquois said that the only treaties they had were with NY state and the Constitution says states can't make treaties, so give us back upstate NY. Court said that they were right, but we screwed you over a long time ago and you waited too long to file, so no soup for you.
Yeah. Sadly, unless you have the weight of something like China (like when Hong Kong reverted), courts are not going to follow the politically unpopular consequences.

I can vaguely recall that there have been examples of 100 year leases expiring on native american land and that going to court, but my google-fu is failing me this morning so I can not find any examples of how that turned out.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5704

Post by mmmirele » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:32 am

Here's an article about 99 year leases starting to expire in Palm Springs and other municipalities on the Agua Caliente reservation. Could get hairy.

https://www.desertsun.com/story/money/r ... /87944598/

Obligatory related to sovereign citizens: you just know some sovcit nutbar will be coming forward to fight it out with the local tribe when he finds out his house is on tribal land. I'll wait.



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neeneko
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5705

Post by neeneko » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:53 am

mmmirele wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:32 am
Here's an article about 99 year leases starting to expire in Palm Springs and other municipalities on the Agua Caliente reservation. Could get hairy.

https://www.desertsun.com/story/money/r ... /87944598/

Obligatory related to sovereign citizens: you just know some sovcit nutbar will be coming forward to fight it out with the local tribe when he finds out his house is on tribal land. I'll wait.
Good find.

I think I tracked down the story I was originally thinking, which looks like it was actually a victory for the Seneca Nation, with Congress getting involved to settle the dispute.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/11/nyreg ... xpire.html



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5706

Post by DejaMoo » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:18 pm

Dunno how many people here are aware of this, but the National Forest Service has had a cabin land leasehold program for over a hundred years now. You lease the land, you build and own your cabin on it. Some people love it, some people have screamed 'tranny' when their 20-year lease came up for renewal and the annual fee went way up, because the Forest Service recently reset their fee structure. They also bitch because they can't just built or add on anything they please. It's much like a HOA in that respect.

There are a lot of conditions, including the cabin is on the property at the Forest Service's pleasure - if they decide upon a better use for the land, the cabin owner has to move it at their expense. Leases are not transferable, so if they sell the cabin, the new owner has to apply for a new lease. They have to abide by a list of guidelines for the construction of the cabin and use of the property. They are responsible for hazard tree removal. The NFS is not responsible for losses. The cabins cannot be occupied year-round. The general public has free and unrestricted access around and across recreation residence lots.

Even so, it's a popular option in many parts of the country, because you'll have your own little place tucked into the woods, no neighbors, no disturbances.



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TheNewSaint
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5707

Post by TheNewSaint » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 pm

Fortinbras wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:38 pm
Back to what to call the people selling the bogus license plates.

There has to be some word that specifically describes rattlesnakes like this.
Just "Sovereign citizen" serves the purpose admirably. The term is already used in mainstream news stories, with little or no elucidation. It carries connotations of pseudo-legality, fraud, kookiness, and possible danger. Sovcits themselves don't like the term, and try to distance themselves from it, suggesting that they realize it carries negative implications. Append "guru" if desired, to describe the leaders of the movement.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5708

Post by Resume18 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:02 pm

TheNewSaint wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:38 pm
Back to what to call the people selling the bogus license plates.

There has to be some word that specifically describes rattlesnakes like this.
Just "Sovereign citizen" serves the purpose admirably. The term is already used in mainstream news stories, with little or no elucidation. It carries connotations of pseudo-legality, fraud, kookiness, and possible danger. Sovcits themselves don't like the term, and try to distance themselves from it, suggesting that they realize it carries negative implications. Append "guru" if desired, to describe the leaders of the movement.
If they don't like the sovcit appellation, how about sovereign accused or sovereign scofflaw, or sovereign petty criminal, or sovereign felon?



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5709

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:43 pm

Sovereign Inmate?


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5710

Post by DejaMoo » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:40 pm

I browsed a blog by one of the more literate SovCit types. He said his repudiation of government authority and law is based on religious belief, to wit: he is only answerable to God.

Therefore, he calls himself a Christian Anarchist.

It's more honest than the SovCit appellation, since it clearly indicates the basis for the belief held by nearly all of them: "Only my personal deity can tell me what to do" - and yeah, seems like the majority of them identify as christians. For those who don't, change it accordingly: Moorish Anarchist, etc.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5711

Post by Foggy » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:45 pm

I ask random people all the time if they know about the sovereign citizens' movement. It's surprising how few people have heard of it. :confused:


... and how does that make you feel?
What is it you're trying to say?
:think:

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5712

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:38 pm

Resume18 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:02 pm
TheNewSaint wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:38 pm
Back to what to call the people selling the bogus license plates.

There has to be some word that specifically describes rattlesnakes like this.
Just "Sovereign citizen" serves the purpose admirably. The term is already used in mainstream news stories, with little or no elucidation. It carries connotations of pseudo-legality, fraud, kookiness, and possible danger. Sovcits themselves don't like the term, and try to distance themselves from it, suggesting that they realize it carries negative implications. Append "guru" if desired, to describe the leaders of the movement.
If they don't like the sovcit appellation, how about sovereign accused or sovereign scofflaw, or sovereign petty criminal, or sovereign felon?
:winner:



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RoadScholar
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5713

Post by RoadScholar » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:50 pm

And as their theme song, how about “I Fought the Law and the Law Won?”


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Gregg
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5714

Post by Gregg » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:39 am

Resume18 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:02 pm
TheNewSaint wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 pm
Fortinbras wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:38 pm
Back to what to call the people selling the bogus license plates.

There has to be some word that specifically describes rattlesnakes like this.
Just "Sovereign citizen" serves the purpose admirably. The term is already used in mainstream news stories, with little or no elucidation. It carries connotations of pseudo-legality, fraud, kookiness, and possible danger. Sovcits themselves don't like the term, and try to distance themselves from it, suggesting that they realize it carries negative implications. Append "guru" if desired, to describe the leaders of the movement.
If they don't like the sovcit appellation, how about sovereign accused or sovereign scofflaw, or sovereign petty criminal, or sovereign felon?
"The Defendant"


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Siegfried Shrink
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5715

Post by Siegfried Shrink » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:33 am

It is very convenient being directed by 'god' since gods are notorious for their silence.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5716

Post by pipistrelle » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:01 am

Siegfried Shrink wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:33 am
It is very convenient being directed by 'god' since gods are notorious for their silence.
You're wrong. Pence has a direct line. He says.



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Northland10
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5717

Post by Northland10 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:14 am

DejaMoo wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:40 pm
I browsed a blog by one of the more literate SovCit types. He said his repudiation of government authority and law is based on religious belief, to wit: he is only answerable to God.

Therefore, he calls himself a Christian Anarchist.
I prefer a shorter title, heretic. The play at home version does not work for Christianity. When 2 or 3 are gathered, there will be disagreements, so we must try and find ways to work together. The Apostle Paul would probably tear this dude up, in many run-on sentences.


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5718

Post by RTH10260 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:28 am

Siegfried Shrink wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:33 am
It is very convenient being directed by 'god' since gods are notorious for their silence.
BUT... But.... but.... they write books, or let ghost authors write their books, or let their followers write books for them... and all must be true cause never has a deity come forward and denied their contents or damned their authors to hell.
:o :lol:



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DejaMoo
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5719

Post by DejaMoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:15 pm

Foggy wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:45 pm
I ask random people all the time if they know about the sovereign citizens' movement. It's surprising how few people have heard of it. :confused:
Use a more generic, catch-all term, and a great many more will know who you're talking about. "Anti-government types" is the term I use. They are spreading like herpes sores across our state, harassing public workers, showing up and disrupting government meetings, and worst of all, sometimes getting elected to public office. It's now becoming routine for cities to develop new safety and data privacy guidelines, plus codes of conduct for those attending public meetings, in order to limit the disruption and safety threats caused by these people.



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