Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5901

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu May 17, 2018 4:56 am

Some people are just too stupid to learn and I'm pretty sure this is one of them.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

Siegfried Shrink
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5902

Post by Siegfried Shrink » Thu May 17, 2018 5:36 am

It is both facile and inaccurate to describe the adherents of the various forms of pseudo-law as stupid. The only authority for 'Stupid is as stupid does' is Forrest Gump, a fiction even without being in all caps.
Some people have a tendency to believe what they have been told by authority, even if the authority is wrong. Children, for example.
Without the appropriate education to make them more critical, this easy acceptance of nonsense could carry over into adulthood, as some childish traits can.

It would be more accurate to describe the mindset as childlike rather than stupid. One might even say innocent, in the sense of people who have never really had occasion to challege or question their beliefs. People who have marched through life with no real need to question anything, or people who have a tendency to question abstact authority are ripe for the seemingly rational nonense this 'travelling not driving' is surrounded by.
Is any change of belief 'stupid'? Even a change that puts the believer at odds with society in general? St. Paul gave up a good job with prospects to become a fuditive.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5903

Post by RoadScholar » Thu May 17, 2018 6:09 am

“Is any change of belief 'stupid'?”

Why, yes.

Abandoning the idea of a round Earth, and buying into the belief that it is flat, is stupid.

Believing that all Judges, Senators, Justices, cops, teachers and so on in America are wrong about the Constitution, and some whack-jobs on the internet are exposing some hidden truth about it, is stupid.

There’s just no other word for it.


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5904

Post by Sam the Centipede » Thu May 17, 2018 6:51 am

"Stupid" seems a good enough label to me. Whether it's being infantile, delusional, gullible or what doesn't matter; they're all different forms of stupid in that those beliefs push them into making very poor decisions.

And, Siegfried, you description makes religious believers "childlike" too. But there are plenty of adult religious adherents who are perfectly mature while still being delusional and gullible with their supernatural beliefs. That sort of delusional belief is a different issue, the same as with old-fashioned Marxists who still believe that a glorious socialist revolution is inevitable when more than a century of world history thoroughly refutes that notion. What's the difference? It's that those people do not permit their badly founded worldview to drag them into making poor decisions in ordinary life.

OK, some do. The difference is between those religious believers who say "yes, I'll take the chemo for my cancer and I'll also pray that it heals me" and those who say "I don't need the chemo, I'll pray for my god to intervene and it's more powerful than any chemo drugs." The second is stupid.

Regardless of labels, we certainly agree that the skill of critical thinking -- whether taught through philosphy, science, debate, politcal argument, whatever -- is a necessary tool that all people need to acquire and hone as part of their early education.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5905

Post by DejaMoo » Thu May 17, 2018 8:15 am

Siegfried Shrink wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:36 am
It is both facile and inaccurate to describe the adherents of the various forms of pseudo-law as stupid.

It would be more accurate to describe the mindset as childlike rather than stupid. One might even say innocent, in the sense of people who have never really had occasion to challege or question their beliefs.
Uh, no. It's a dose of willful stupidity mixed with a very big helping of stubbornness. These folks will never admit they're wrong and will never, ever EVER change their stance on anything. It's their way or the highway, every time.

Way back in my teens, working retail, I had to deal with these personalities as customers from time to time. They're the ones who, when they don't get their way, even after it's been escalated to the store manager, stand there and keep on yelling and screaming until the police show up to escort them out. They're the ones who, after their kids are picked up for shoplifting, storm into the store and confront the manager, telling him it's the store's fault their kids stole, because if they'd been watching the kids and let them know that, they'd never have done it.

Of course these people latch onto schemes that reinforce their beliefs that they're always right and can do whatever they want. It attracts them like nectar to bees. It's baked into their personality.

They're never wrong, it's never their fault, they're never to blame, and they're always getting into trouble. By those traits ye shall know them.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5906

Post by Fortinbras » Thu May 17, 2018 9:54 am

There is a good deal of these pseudo-law SovCits that resembles the Cargo Cults that supposedly existed on tropical islands after World War Two.

The story is that these islands were briefly inhabited by the US armed forces during the war, barracks and other buildings were built (and left behind), enormous amounts of useful supplies, including tools and food, were brought in and virtually unguarded and mostly left behind, and when the war was over and the Americans abandoned the islands, the natives tried to bring in more supplies by magic by means of this cult. They'd march around as they had seen the soldiers do, various natives carried small boards to emulate clip-boards and folders, they would salute each other, they would wear the scraps of uniforms left behind or contrive imitation uniforms of their own, etc., they would build (from local wood) a sort of conning tower to guide in aircraft that never arrived. There were books written about these cults, which evidently popped up independently in a number of widely separately places and lasted possibly as long as a decade.

The point being that the island cultists thought they could magically attain their desired result (the return of US Army supply planes) if they went through the dimly understood motions of real soldiers. And SovCits think they can somehow obtain their desired result (getting out of a traffic ticket, avoiding taxes, avoiding foreclosure and eviction, etc.) if they babble some legal jargon and rely on some simplistic (and usually spectacularly wrong) amateur narrative about the law.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5907

Post by Siegfried Shrink » Thu May 17, 2018 9:55 am

I should, of course, have said "is every change of belief", "any change" was in fact a stupid thing to say.:-)



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5908

Post by RoadScholar » Thu May 17, 2018 10:05 am

Just once I'd like to see a cop tell one of these idiots "Remember when you were a little kid, you believed in Santa Claus? And later you realized it was just a fiction? OK. Not needing a license or license plate? Same thing." 8-)


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5909

Post by Judge Roy Bean » Thu May 17, 2018 11:11 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:05 am
Just once I'd like to see a cop tell one of these idiots "Remember when you were a little kid, you believed in Santa Claus? And later you realized it was just a fiction? OK. Not needing a license or license plate? Same thing." 8-)
You've hit on something I've noted in the past at Quatloos - these people are playing roles in a child-like fantasy game that has spilled over into the real world in real time.

Madeline L'Engle's "A Wrinkle in Time" was the basis for countless hours of my younger sister's play with her friends and cousins. They could spend hours being someone they weren't in a world that couldn't exist. Fortunately, as children, their attention span meant these scenarios lasted for a couple of hours at most, as players got bored or attracted to something more interesting.

Adults who glom onto the sov-cit fantasy often can't pull themselves out of it; they've gone so far as to challenge other, more rational people and now their ego simply cannot let them admit their view of the world is just a fantasy of their own construction.

Like the lost boys in Peter Pan, they can never grow up.


“Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.”
Walter Lippmann

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5910

Post by fierceredpanda » Thu May 17, 2018 11:57 am

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:11 am
Adults who glom onto the sov-cit fantasy often can't pull themselves out of it; they've gone so far as to challenge other, more rational people and now their ego simply cannot let them admit their view of the world is just a fantasy of their own construction.

Like the lost boys in Peter Pan, they can never grow up.
Well put. Now apply this thinking to people who think a racist plural-bankruptcies reality TV star with a penchant for groping women is going to bring back jobs lost to automation and efficiency, achieve world peace by pissing off each and every one of our allies, drain the swamp by flouting ethics rules and regulations, and generally Make America Great Again. It's the same pathology.


"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5911

Post by arayder » Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 am

Somebody may have said this but many people who go down the freeman/sovcit rabbit hole end up being estranged from family and friends who have trouble with their fixation on the woo. When this happens the sovcit subculture can take over the person's socialization and the woo pitching just gets reinforced.

The situation only gets worse if the subject has good communization skills and can repeat the woo (making them a guru) or if he or she decides to challenge the cops or the courts (making them a freedom fighter).

Thus the poot who is a considered a kook by the rest of society becomes something special in the subculture.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5912

Post by DejaMoo » Thu May 17, 2018 1:33 pm

arayder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 am
Somebody may have said this but many people who go down the freeman/sovcit rabbit hole end up being estranged from family and friends who have trouble with their fixation on the woo.
Any kind of woo, too. Once a person departs from reality, they are losing their connection to the world, and that includes friends and family who are still grounded. It can be sovcit stuff, the paranormal, UFOs, alt-med or alt-legal. The deeper they get into it, the farther they remove themselves from this world and the overwhelming majority of its inhabitants. Sensible people just don't have time for it, so once they realize their friend or family member back cannot be talked out of their fixation, there's nothing left but to throw up their hands in disgust.

As a friend of mine once put it:
It's all well and good to say one should be courteous to the
reality-challenged, but how long can you keep that up? Try spending decades
fighting in the skeptical trenches like Randi, and see how civil you can
remain in the face of willful stupidity.

True Believer: "I think we're being visited by alien spacecraft."

Skeptic: "With due respect, I must disagree. I don't think the evidence supports
that claim at all."

TB: "I saw an alien scout ship once."

S: "I would suggest you might have been misled by well-known optical
illusion effects."

TB: "It had little grey guys in shiny metal suits in it."

S: "Um. Yes, well, nice chatting with you."

TB: "They pointed their mind control ray at me."

S: "Yes. Thank you. I really must go."

TB: "But it didn't work because I was wearing my tinfoil hat and chakra
crystal."

S: "Shut up."

TB: "So they encased me in a force field and took me back to the mothership."

S: "Shut up, will you?"

TB: "And then they did an anal probe."

S: "Will you shut up, you nut?"

TB: "And then they implanted me with microchips that forced me to go out
and make a crop circle."

S: "SHUT THE HELL UP, YOU BLOODY FREAKING LOONEY!"

TB: "And then they made me help them with a cattle mutilation..."

<smack>



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5913

Post by JohnPCapitalist » Thu May 17, 2018 1:37 pm

arayder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 am
Somebody may have said this but many people who go down the freeman/sovcit rabbit hole end up being estranged from family and friends who have trouble with their fixation on the woo. When this happens the sovcit subculture can take over the person's socialization and the woo pitching just gets reinforced.

The situation only gets worse if the subject has good communization skills and can repeat the woo (making them a guru) or if he or she decides to challenge the cops or the courts (making them a freedom fighter).

Thus the poot who is a considered a kook by the rest of society becomes something special in the subculture.
Banging the drum for the nth time, this is a great description of poots as well as what happens in cults in general. Cults depend on this isolation from friends, family and former life to bind the recruit to the group. Unfortunately, poots have it worse than most cult members, because there's no formal structure to poot groups, and there's no money. At least if you're in Scientology's "Sea Org" (their pretend navy group that is the most dedicated set of believers) they give you housing and food, after a fashion. No such luck if you believe in poot nonsense enough to become homeless.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5914

Post by Uninformed » Thu May 17, 2018 2:27 pm

Interesting tweets by JJ MacNab re April LaJune and Stephen Paddock. Too lazy (and inept) to post. :-D



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5915

Post by noblepa » Thu May 17, 2018 3:24 pm

Judge Roy Bean wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:48 pm
Domenico wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:31 pm
Ron got his majik wurdz wrong. At about -12.40 in the first video he says "United Commercial Code" instead of "Universal Commercial Code". That is quite obviously why he failed.
That wouldn't have worked, either.

It's "Uniform Commercial Code." :shh:

But, the poots believe that it really is "Universal Commercial Code". That's why a US law can be used in Canada and the UK.



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arayder
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5916

Post by arayder » Thu May 17, 2018 4:09 pm

JohnPCapitalist wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:37 pm
arayder wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 11:58 am
Somebody may have said this but many people who go down the freeman/sovcit rabbit hole end up being estranged from family and friends who have trouble with their fixation on the woo. When this happens the sovcit subculture can take over the person's socialization and the woo pitching just gets reinforced.

The situation only gets worse if the subject has good communization skills and can repeat the woo (making them a guru) or if he or she decides to challenge the cops or the courts (making them a freedom fighter).

Thus the poot who is a considered a kook by the rest of society becomes something special in the subculture.
Banging the drum for the nth time, this is a great description of poots as well as what happens in cults in general. Cults depend on this isolation from friends, family and former life to bind the recruit to the group. Unfortunately, poots have it worse than most cult members, because there's no formal structure to poot groups, and there's no money. At least if you're in Scientology's "Sea Org" (their pretend navy group that is the most dedicated set of believers) they give you housing and food, after a fashion. No such luck if you believe in poot nonsense enough to become homeless.
IMHO the supply side of the freeman sovcit subculture is being fed by an ever growing supply of non-achievers, some of whom want to blame society and government for their situations. If the freeman/sovcit subculture dupes even a small percentage of these folks, it's still a lot of people.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5917

Post by mmmirele » Wed May 23, 2018 11:03 pm

JJ MacNab reports that sovereign citizen paper terrorist Thomas Benson has been given probation in his latest real estate shenanigans. *rolls eyes*


Thomas Benson, who authorities say follows anti-government “sovereign citizen” ideology, was given probation this week for filing bogus real estate paperwork in Las Vegas.

Benson had pleaded guilty to two felonies in January, each from separate cases against him. Senior District Judge Joseph Bonaventure on Wednesday gave him five years of probation and a suspended prison sentence of 24 to 60 months in one case, and District Judge Kathleen Delaney on Monday gave him two years of probation and a suspended sentence of 12 to 30 months in the other.

The rulings appear to conclude — at least for now — a saga that featured the alleged takeover of a bank-owned home, nonsensical court filings, orders from a nonexistent court, squatting accusations, a mysterious associate known as Nana I Am, and a window into the bizarre and often criminal world of sovereign citizens.

Senior Deputy Attorney General Jason Gunnell on Wednesday told Bonaventure that if it were possible, he would like to “just send (Benson) out to an island” where he could do as he pleased and wouldn’t have to follow the law.
more at the link: https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/cou ... las-vegas/

My prediction is that Benson will be in trouble before the end of the year.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5918

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu May 24, 2018 3:48 am

mmmirele wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 11:03 pm
JJ MacNab reports that sovereign citizen paper terrorist Thomas Benson has been given probation in his latest real estate shenanigans. *rolls eyes*


Thomas Benson, who authorities say follows anti-government “sovereign citizen” ideology, was given probation this week for filing bogus real estate paperwork in Las Vegas.

Benson had pleaded guilty to two felonies in January, each from separate cases against him. Senior District Judge Joseph Bonaventure on Wednesday gave him five years of probation and a suspended prison sentence of 24 to 60 months in one case, and District Judge Kathleen Delaney on Monday gave him two years of probation and a suspended sentence of 12 to 30 months in the other.

The rulings appear to conclude — at least for now — a saga that featured the alleged takeover of a bank-owned home, nonsensical court filings, orders from a nonexistent court, squatting accusations, a mysterious associate known as Nana I Am, and a window into the bizarre and often criminal world of sovereign citizens.

Senior Deputy Attorney General Jason Gunnell on Wednesday told Bonaventure that if it were possible, he would like to “just send (Benson) out to an island” where he could do as he pleased and wouldn’t have to follow the law.
more at the link: https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/cou ... las-vegas/

My prediction is that Benson will be in trouble before the end of the year.

I don't think it will take that long, Benson is another flat line learning curvers, and this isn't anything new to him. I really don't understand the slap on the wrist when he'll be right back at it.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5919

Post by RoadScholar » Thu May 24, 2018 5:47 am

Were there conditions imposed? Like, “no more filing dreck with the courts for you, buddy?”


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5920

Post by Siegfried Shrink » Thu May 24, 2018 6:22 am

I really don't understand the slap on the wrist when he'll be right back at it.
Ever been fishing? You throw the tiddlers back so they will be bigger and better when you catch them again.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5921

Post by Foggy » Thu May 24, 2018 7:29 am

Probation with a suspended sentence means that if he gets accused of violating the probation ...

1. He's not entitled to a jury trial to decide whether he violated or not. A judge holds a short probation violation hearing.

2. The standard of evidence is "preponderance of the evidence" (aka 51%) and not "beyond a reasonable doubt". Much easier to prove.

3. He's already been sentenced. If the judge rules he violated probation, they don't have a hearing on what his sentence should be; they already decided that. They just drop the hammer and impose the two suspended sentences detailed above.

So he'd better be a good boy.


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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5922

Post by TollandRCR » Thu May 24, 2018 9:26 am

The cargo cultists of the south Pacific believed that their ancestors were sending life-sustaining goods to them but that the soldiers and sailors were stealing these goods. They tried to attract the ancestors' gifts by mimicking the soldiers' installations. The cargo cult fit neatly into a longstanding belief system.


“The truth is, we know so little about life, we don’t really know what the good news is and what the bad news is.” Kurt Vonnegut

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Notorial Dissent
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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5923

Post by Notorial Dissent » Thu May 24, 2018 9:27 am

Foggy wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 7:29 am
Probation with a suspended sentence means that if he gets accused of violating the probation ...

1. He's not entitled to a jury trial to decide whether he violated or not. A judge holds a short probation violation hearing.

2. The standard of evidence is "preponderance of the evidence" (aka 51%) and not "beyond a reasonable doubt". Much easier to prove.

3. He's already been sentenced. If the judge rules he violated probation, they don't have a hearing on what his sentence should be; they already decided that. They just drop the hammer and impose the two suspended sentences detailed above.

So he'd better be a good boy.
Yeah, not likely, this isn't his first rodeo I don't think. Repeating history and all that.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5924

Post by scirreeve » Sat May 26, 2018 12:02 am

Some nutter I never heard of before bloviates about holding court using registered mail. Didn't watch all of it or Part 1. Saw on the former Ambassador Nut Burger's FB page. His YT channel looks like a cornucopia of sovcit nonsense.



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Re: Sovereign Citizens and Related Nutz

#5925

Post by Siegfried Shrink » Sat May 26, 2018 3:12 am

This freetard was referred to as a source of wisdom by April leJune, the Colorado Trumpette and serial swindler in one of her videos. It may be that his activities are for most part theoretical and in real life he passes for normal.

He has a fine stock of totally futile processes of some complexity that are in essence magic spells, using the power of form number this that and the other to weave frustration and entrapment for the PTB.



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